Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[rsskga]

Went to the US Embassy today with 2 versions of an affidavit related to hypothetically renouncing my American citizenship upon receipt of Thai. They wouldn't sign either one. The consular official made it clear that it is an intentional diplomacy-driven decision to not engage with these requests on any level any longer and that all consular officials are on the same page in this regard. I wish I knew all of the related details, as I find a policy change like this quite interesting.

 

For clarity, here are both versions, appropriately redacted.

 

Quote

My American Passport number is XXX. My Thai Alien ID number is YYY.

 

In connection with my application for Thai citizenship, I, ZZZ, hereby confirm my intent to renounce American citizenship when granted Thai citizenship.

Quote

My American Passport number is XXX. My Thai Alien ID number is YYY.

 

In connection with my application for Thai citizenship, I, ZZZ, have requested the Embassy of the Unites States of America in Bangkok, Thailand to notarize an affidavit documenting my intent to renounce American citizenship when granted Thai citizenship.

 

However, I have been told that due to an Embassy policy change, Consular officials are no longer permitted to notarize such statements.

 

Please allow this document to verify my sincere attempt to comply with this Thai citizenship application requirement.

Happily, I had other docs to get notarized, so it wasn't a waste of my time.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, rsskga said:

Went to the US Embassy today with 2 versions of an affidavit related to hypothetically renouncing my American citizenship upon receipt of Thai. They wouldn't sign either one.

So, there are saying Americans can't change their nationality to Thai now?

Surely, that is against your basic human rights. Did you have the letter given by Special Branch?

[THAIJAMES]

Interestingly 2 years ago when I called the American embassy in Bangkok and the consulate in Chiang Mai they both said they would not sign such an affidavit renouncing citizenship in the future.  However I went into the Chiang Mai consulate in person not mentioning what the affidavit was about and the consul notarized it anyways.  They don't always read the letters to be notarized.

[ecline]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

So, there are saying Americans can't change their nationality to Thai now?

Surely, that is against your basic human rights. Did you have the letter given by Special Branch?

So I had a similar experience with the consulate in Chiang Mai. They said they couldn't issue a letter saying I intend to renounce my citizenship. I relayed this to the SB in BKK and they sent me a sample letter from a previous American applicant. The gist of the letter was simply that the US has no insight into the intentions of its citizens and therefore cannot attest to them. That text plus passport number and SB case number was enough to satisfy SB and the consulate was happy to notarize it. I can dig the letter up if someone wants it.

[Dogmatix]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

So, there are saying Americans can't change their nationality to Thai now?

Surely, that is against your basic human rights. Did you have the letter given by Special Branch?

It was inevitable that Western embassies would want to disentangle themselves from this nonsense after the MOI started trying to put pressure on them to follow up and revoke  the citizenships after receiving the letters of confirmation of Thai citizenship. But countries that are an anally retentive about dual citizenship, eg Germany, Singapore, China, India etc, must be more than happy to comply. They account for a large percentage of applicants.

[BKKBike09]

18 hours ago, Arkady said:

UK nationality, unlike US nationality, can be renounced and theoretically then recovered at a cost but no idea how straightforward the process would be.

You can ask for it back if you were born British prior to 1981 (I think it is, or whenever the Nationality Act changed around that time). It's a one-off deal. The guidance is complex, and one little wrinkle is the potential requirement to provide:

 

"a letter from the authorities of the country concerned (unless it is a British overseas territory) stating that the applicant’s renunciation of British citizenship was necessary in order to acquire or retain that country’s citizenship"

 

Good luck getting that in Thailand and keeping Thai nationality ...

 

However ... There is an option to apply and rely on the discretion of the Home Secretary in cases where the person "renounced British citizenship to either acquire the nationality or citizenship of their spouse or civil partner or to assist them in their careers" and when either a) the marriage, civil partnership or the career has now ended or b) they wish to remain in the UK, or return to the UK for settlement (my highlighting).

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/632943/registration-as-a-British-citizen-following-renunciation-v1.0.pdf

 

 

 

[heiri007]

15 hours ago, rsskga said:

Went to the US Embassy today with 2 versions of an affidavit related to hypothetically renouncing my American citizenship upon receipt of Thai. They wouldn't sign either one. The consular official made it clear that it is an intentional diplomacy-driven decision to not engage with these requests on any level any longer and that all consular officials are on the same page in this regard. I wish I knew all of the related details, as I find a policy change like this quite interesting.

 

For clarity, here are both versions, appropriately redacted.

 

Happily, I had other docs to get notarized, so it wasn't a waste of my time.

Heard this from a European embassy, the ambassador told me they'd be supporting a lie in signing such a paper. Obviously there are workarounds. An applicant told me he submitted an own written statement and it was accepted.

[Arun Mai]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:19 PM, rsskga said:

Hello Arun Mai, please see above for where you referenced being asked for additional docs.

 

Thanks to all for relaying your experiences and helpful tips!

 

I have an appointment at the US Embassy March 7. I'll report back after as to what they will/won't sign.

rsska.....   I think this post from Arkady resolves the mystery.  I think you only submit what you have from the list.  In my case I have a Thai driving licence whereas I don't have a pink ID card.

[david143]

there was a interview meeting for Thai nationality held on 3rd March 2023.
foreign females with Thai husbands and foreign husbands with Thai wives.
+ with few PR candidates

 

On 3/2/2023 at 4:39 PM, ubonr1971 said:

May I ask. you to confirm that if Im married to thai and applying for Citizenship then I dont have to sing at all?? Only conversational thai? What about reading or writing? 

on current Nationality Law YES you don't need to write , read , only conversational is enough , if you married to Th

[rsskga]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:07 PM, Neeranam said:

So, there are saying Americans can't change their nationality to Thai now?

Surely, that is against your basic human rights. Did you have the letter given by Special Branch?

I didn't have anything from Special Branch with me. Just the two affidavits I wrote for myself, as posted above.

 

The Consular Officials are willing to process actual renunciations of American citizenship, just not the performative, unenforceable sham docs created exclusively for the Thai citizenship application process.

[rsskga]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:04 AM, THAIJAMES said:

Interestingly 2 years ago when I called the American embassy in Bangkok and the consulate in Chiang Mai they both said they would not sign such an affidavit renouncing citizenship in the future.  However I went into the Chiang Mai consulate in person not mentioning what the affidavit was about and the consul notarized it anyways.  They don't always read the letters to be notarized.

Yes, I do wonder if the Consulate in Chiang Mai is on the same page, or if this is a development unique to Bangkok. I may try to find out as I need to make a trip to Chiang Mai soon anyway.

[rsskga]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:42 AM, ecline said:

I can dig the letter up if someone wants it.

Yes, please do share your letter! Thank you!

[rsskga]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:11 PM, Arun Mai said:

 

I think you only submit what you have from the list.

Thanks! This makes me happy as I did have my educational qualifications translated. I figured I'd need them for something eventually...

[Neeranam]

12 minutes ago, rsskga said:

I didn't have anything from Special Branch with me. Just the two affidavits I wrote for myself, as posted above.

 

The Consular Officials are willing to process actual renunciations of American citizenship, just not the performative, unenforceable sham docs created exclusively for the Thai citizenship application process.

When you submit the application to SB, they give you 4 envelopes, one of which is for your embassy regarding the letter of intending to renounce. 

I've heard that some embassies refuse to do so, but if you can prove that you asked them, this satisfies SB. Photo of you outside embassy, for example. 

[Neeranam]

15 minutes ago, rsskga said:

Yes, please do share your letter! Thank you!

I, XXXXX, born in XXXX, XXXX, on DD MM YYY and holder of XXXXXX Passport no. XXXXXX  issued by XXXX on XX XXXX XXXX, am a XXXX citizen resident in Thailand. 

 

In connection with my recent application for naturalization as a Thai citizen I do solemnly and sincerely swear that I intend to renounce my XXXXXX citizenship when I have received permission from the competent Thai authorities to become naturalized as a Thai citizen.

[THAIJAMES]

10 hours ago, david143 said:

there was a interview meeting for Thai nationality held on 3rd March 2023.
foreign females with Thai husbands and foreign husbands with Thai wives.
+ with few PR candidates

 

Thank you David for the update, it's good to hear that things are still moving.  My MOI interview was approved in Chiang Mai last year and it's waiting in Bangkok for final approval from the committee. Am I to also assume that these candidates will also have to wait for final approval from  the committee or is it a different process?

[Scott]

An unhelpful post has been reported and removed.

 

[Dogmatix]

16 hours ago, Neeranam said:

When you submit the application to SB, they give you 4 envelopes, one of which is for your embassy regarding the letter of intending to renounce. 

I've heard that some embassies refuse to do so, but if you can prove that you asked them, this satisfies SB. Photo of you outside embassy, for example. 

I hope they put this in the new ministerial regulations - required a selfie of candidate standing outside his or her embassy. 
 

if parliament had wanted this affidavit thing, wouldn’t they have included it when they last amended the law in 2008 and 2010? Seems to be over reach by bureaucrats.

[DrJoy]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:13 PM, THAIJAMES said:

Thank you David for the update, it's good to hear that things are still moving.  My MOI interview was approved in Chiang Mai last year and it's waiting in Bangkok for final approval from the committee. Am I to also assume that these candidates will also have to wait for final approval from  the committee or is it a different process?

For Bangkok Candidates its a little different -

 

1. Submit Documents

2. Special Police Interview - within a month of submitting documents

3. NIA Interview - within 3 -5 months

4.M.O.I Interview - usual time frame 18- 24 months after NIA

5. Minister of Interior signs off your application + counter signed by His Majesty

6. Oath

7. Name published in the Royal Gazette

8. Get Citizenship Certificate from Special Police + 3 certified copies of RG (Not applicable to Women Candidates)

9. Name entered in the Blue Tabien Baan (Non PRs) + THAI ID card issuance at the District Office

10. Thai Passport issuance at any Passport Office

 

Peace

[ubonr1971]

1 hour ago, DrJoy said:

For Bangkok Candidates its a little different -

 

1. Submit Documents

2. Special Police Interview - within a month of submitting documents

3. NIA Interview - within 3 -5 months

4.M.O.I Interview - usual time frame 18- 24 months after NIA

5. Minister of Interior signs off your application + counter signed by His Majesty

6. Oath

7. Name published in the Royal Gazette

8. Get Citizenship Certificate from Special Police + 3 certified copies of RG (Not applicable to Women Candidates)

9. Name entered in the Blue Tabien Baan (Non PRs) + THAI ID card issuance at the District Office

10. Thai Passport issuance at any Passport Office

 

Peace

May I ask from the day that you submit the documents (number 1) to the day the you apply for a thai passport (number 10)..... what is the 'average' time for this whole process of applying for Thai citizenship (based on being married to thai lady)?

Edited March 11, 2023 by ubonr1971

[khongaeng]

20 minutes ago, ubonr1971 said:

May I ask from the day that you submit the documents (number 1) to the day the you apply for a thai passport (number 10)..... what is the 'average' time for this whole process of applying for Thai citizenship (based on being married to thai lady)?

I encourage you to take a look at pages around 190 to 210 of this forum.  During that time there were a lot of us active giving details about the timeline for the process.  Here is a link to my post:

 

[khongaeng]

Two months ago I bought my first house in my name.  I took all of my paperwork (nationality certificate, marriage certificate, house registration, ID card, and some extra stuff) but they only wanted to see my marriage certificate and ID card (of course).  I was surprised that they didn't even hesitate in processing the registration in my name. Maybe it is because I spoke Thai with them, but the process was completely painless.  I immediately went to the Khet and got my shiny new blue book with my name showing as owner of the house.  Again no issues here, in and out in 30 minutes.

 

Now my only remaining Thai bucket list is voting in Thailand (sadly it looks like I will miss this time around due to not being Thai for 5 years) and driving a Taxi in Thailand.  

 

I word for anyone just starting the process or thinking about starting the process.  Go for It!  It is so worth it (assuming you come from a country that allows dual nationality). I recommend you read through at least the last 50 pages of this forum, you will learn a lot from many really helpful people.  Good luck!

Edited March 11, 2023 by khongaeng

[ubonr1971]

Hi, I was reading the document checklist 'Evidence required to apply for naturalization as a Thai / foreigner.   Im confused about some of the items on this list. Can anyone help?

 

- N.o 2....  copies of resident certificate. What is this referring to? Years ago as a teacher I think I had to pay immigration 500 baht for a so called resident certificate. Is this what they want? 

 

- N.o 5...... copy of household registration for 5 families (applicant, husband, wife, children).  My wife and child are on the blue book and Im on a yellow book. So when they see I dont live in Bangkok but Im applying at  Special branch opposite Central World will this be a problem? Do I need to be on a yellow book in central bangkok?

 

- N.o 6...... copies of passport. Do I need to show them old passports dating back to when I first started to visit Thailand in 2006?

 

- N.o 10..... Proof of tax return for past 3 yrs certified by the Revenue officer.  Actually I get my tax done by an accountant who prints out a statement from their system called 

'E-Filing'. Should I be taking all the documents to the tax office and get them to stamp it? Or should I be actually going to the tax office to do my return there instead? 

 

- N.o 11.... Evidence of the company, the shop where the applicant works, such as the trade registration, commercial registration, cert of registration of shareholders / VAT....... My wife and I have a small business but we decided not to have a company structure. The business is in her personal name and she pays taxes 6 monthly in her name.  Does anyone know if this will be an issue?

 

- N.o 13.... Work certificate for me signed by company binding authority and seal. We dont have a company. Will they accept a letter from my wife on our letterhead?

 

- N.o 17.... Certificate of legal age according to the laws of the original country in which the applicant has nationality...... Are they talking about a standard birth certificate? I just had a look at mine and it says  'Extract Certificate. Birth registered in <state / country>

It looks like its an 'extract' but hope they accept this?

 

- N.o 18.... Certificate of the applicant who expressed his intention to renounce the original nationality from the embassy of the consulate of his nationality  when being allowed to naturalize as a thai.......  I read all the posts on this forum but still a bit confused. Do I basically prepare an affidavid and have it signed at my consulate? Is this correct?

 

If you are able to assist with any of the points above or ALL I would be very grateful

 

thanks

[khongaeng]

2 - I think this is only applicable for Permanent Residents

5 - Yes, you need to put your name on a Yellow Book in Bangkok first.  If not, SB opposite Central World will tell you to talk to immigration in your home province.  Don't waste your time with this.  Move your registration, it will save you headaches later.  it is ok if you and your wife are registered to different addresses.

6 - Yes, copy every page dating back to the first time you got a Non Immigrant-O Visa

10 - Tax office will print one out and certify it for you, plan to waste a couple of hours for this nonsense.

11 - If you don't have a work permit.  Then STOP HERE.  You cannot continue until you get a work permit, even if you are paying taxes in Thailand.  If you are shareholder in the company then you will need to get a certified tax return for your company for the past year too.  You will also need a letter of employment from your company stating your salary, position, and employment date

13 - See number 11.  If your wife has a formal company, then a letter from her on the letterhead is acceptable.

17 - This one isn't required anymore.  Don't worry about it

18 - Yes read the past few pages on this forum, there are a few people discussing this.  It is required for the countries that have embassies that will sign the affidavit, otherwise some people seem to have success just taking a picture infant of their embassy

 

Good Luck!

 

[ubonr1971]

11 minutes ago, khongaeng said:

11 - If you don't have a work permit.  Then STOP HERE.  You cannot continue until you get a work permit, even if you are paying taxes in Thailand.  If you are shareholder in the company then you will need to get a certified tax return for your company for the past year too.  You will also need a letter of employment from your company stating your salary, position, and employment date

13 - See number 11.  If your wife has a formal company, then a letter from her on the letterhead is acceptable.

I have a work permit. But we have our small business running through my wifes personal name not a company structure. I hope this doesn't cause issues as I assume most farang work through a company structure. Our business is legal and we have yearly licenses issued from the government authorities in our province (in my wifes name of course) BUT its not a company structure. I will be guttered if this turns out to be a show stopper for me. 

 

How do I get my name on a yellow book? Do they care about the duration? Should I be going to find a cheap rental right away??? Its not easy getting a yellow book actually

[DrJoy]

1 hour ago, ubonr1971 said:

May I ask from the day that you submit the documents (number 1) to the day the you apply for a thai passport (number 10).....

36 - 48 months, for most applications

[DrJoy]

8 minutes ago, ubonr1971 said:

How do I get my name on a yellow book?

You will have to visit the District Office (Khet/Amphur) in Bangkok with your Landlord.

 

Different offices have different requirements so its best you contact them directly.

 

You will certainly need copy of your passport page notarized by your Embassy, translated into Thai and stamped by MFA Thai, Chaengwattana.

Some were requested for a birth certificate as well, others were not!

[DrJoy]

17 minutes ago, ubonr1971 said:

I have a work permit. But we have our small business running through my wifes personal name not a company structure. I hope this doesn't cause issues as I assume most farang work through a company structure. Our business is legal and we have yearly licenses issued from the government authorities in our province (in my wifes name of course) BUT its not a company structure. I will be guttered if this turns out to be a show stopper for me

If you cannot supply all the company documents, you cannot apply.

 

Company Registration Certificate from Ministry of Commerce (DBD) is certainly required.

Company tax payments, VAT registration documents, your yearly tax payments, work permit etc.

Edited March 11, 2023 by DrJoy

[ubonr1971]

20 minutes ago, DrJoy said:

If you cannot supply all the company documents, you cannot apply.

 

Company Registration Certificate from Ministry of Commerce (DBD) is certainly required.

Company tax payments, VAT registration documents, your yearly tax payments, work permit etc.

Thanks for your reply. If Im at year 2 now with all my evidence (documents) and say my wife and I go and set up a company next week.... I would have evidence of company structure 1 yr before applying for my citizenship. Would this work ok for me? 

[yankee99]

1 hour ago, ubonr1971 said:

Thanks for your reply. If Im at year 2 now with all my evidence (documents) and say my wife and I go and set up a company next week.... I would have evidence of company structure 1 yr before applying for my citizenship. Would this work ok for me? 

Your company is going to be a issue not sure how you have a wp without vat registration .

 

Best to talk with SB in bkk