1 million doses of Sinovac vaccine arrive in Thailand

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Here's some critical thinking for you. Chinese has previously been criticized for the slow pace of its vaccination program. Now that it's speeding it up, it's getting criticized for that too. The UK is importing vaccines not created in the UK. Is that a bad thing or some kind of implicit confession?

Its all fun and games when China was only allowing people to enter China if they had a Chinese made vaccine. Kind of makes a mockery of China then importing foreign vaccines right?

[placeholder]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Its all fun and games when China was only allowing people to enter China if they had a Chinese made vaccine. Kind of makes a mockery of China then importing foreign vaccines right?

No doubt that the Chinese govt is 2 faced and hypocritical. Calling them out on their hypocrisy is one thing. But that doesn't mean that their change of plan show that Coronavac is not very very useful against Covid-19.

[hioctane]

From Brazil:

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-idUSKBN2BY0T2

 

Some Sinovac numbers to note:

• 50.7% effective against the infectious new homegrown variant known as P1
• if the second dose is delayed by more than two weeks, the efficacy rises to 62.3%.

Most important:

83.7% and 100% at preventing those infected from requiring medical assistance

 

The whole point of getting vaccinated is to stop hospitalization and death!

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No doubt that the Chinese govt is 2 faced and hypocritical. Calling them out on their hypocrisy is one thing. But that doesn't mean that their change of plan show that Coronavac is not very very useful against Covid-19.

Transparency, censorship, propaganda, lack of study information, the detaining of those who speak out on previous vaccine adverse reactions. The fact that there have been 100's of millions of doses of their own vaccine administered in their country and yet no reports made officially on any adverse reactions. These should all be factors that are in consideration when discussing the vaccine

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, hioctane said:

From Brazil:

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-idUSKBN2BY0T2

 

Some Sinovac numbers to note:

• 50.7% effective against the infectious new homegrown variant known as P1
• if the second dose is delayed by more than two weeks, the efficacy rises to 62.3%.

Most important:

83.7% and 100% at preventing those infected from requiring medical assistance

 

The whole point of getting vaccinated is to stop hospitalization and death!

Exactly. If Covid-19 only caused minor to moderately discomforting symptoms, why would anyone pay it any more attention than they would pay to the common cold?

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Transparency, censorship, propaganda, lack of study information, the detaining of those who speak out on previous vaccine adverse reactions. The fact that there have been 100's of millions of doses of their own vaccine administered in their country and yet no reports made officially on any adverse reactions. These should all be factors that are in consideration when discussing the vaccine

If the only trials were held in China or under the control of the Chinese, your point would carry a lot more weight. That doesn't mean that the Chinese suppression of data is to be excused, but they're not the only source, are they?

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If the only trials were held in China or under the control of the Chinese, your point would carry a lot more weight. That doesn't mean that the Chinese suppression of data is to be excused, but they're not the only source, are they?

The other studies are very small in comparison to the mass vaccination campaigns they are having in China where real world data is now available to them but they are not disclosing any of it.

 

It was only with the larger vaccination roll out in many countries, that happened after phase 3 trials, that the problem albeit rare was discovered with the AZ. 

 

Its all about trust and transparency when dealing with vaccines.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

The other studies are very small in comparison to the mass vaccination campaigns they are having in China where real world data is now available to them but they are not disclosing any of it.

 

It was only with the larger vaccination roll out in many countries, that happened after phase 3 trials, that the problem albeit rare was discovered with the AZ. 

It comes down to the law of diminishing returns. Yes, a bigger sample would help in detecting rare cases. But statistically speaking, only slightly useful in offering greater protection.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It comes down to the law of diminishing returns. Yes, a bigger sample would help in detecting rare cases. But statistically speaking, only slightly useful in offering greater protection.

Transparency and trust are the major factors, withholding of study information in not excusable in any form when its being rolled out to millions, it just erodes confidence in vaccines and gives anti vaxxer ammunition. Quite aside from the other issues.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[sungod]

42 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The UK is importing vaccines not created in the UK. Is that a bad thing or some kind of implicit confession?

 

Sure its a confession. They cant produce enough for their needs.

[placeholder]

Just now, sungod said:

 

Sure its a confession. They cant produce enough for their needs.

Actually, no country can. If they could, everyone who wanted a vaccination would already be vaccinated.

[sungod]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, no country can. If they could, everyone who wanted a vaccination would already be vaccinated.

 I dont understand what point you were trying to make then ?

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, sungod said:

 I dont understand what point you were trying to make then ?

That China's importation of other vaccines is no more a confession of inadequacy than it is for other countries to import vaccines. And that it doesn't mean that the their vaccine isn't very useful in fighting Covid.

[gearbox]

2 hours ago, ParkerN said:

 

Yes, I had a brief conversation with someone ('placeholder' IIRC) who says that's all nonsense and that Sinovac is (to all intents and purposes) 100% effective. Doesn't quite gel with what the newspapers say, but I wasn't going to stray outside of my lane beyond what I had already done, Perhaps he knows more than me - it wouldn't be very hard.

 

Someone you talked to is probably both right and wrong.

 

There are 3 levels of effectiveness in regards to the Covid vaccines:

 

* effectiveness of preventing virus transmission

* effectiveness of preventing "mild illness" - you get the virus and you do get sick, but the sickness level is like normal flu.

* effectiveness of preventing hospitalization and death - the vaccine keeps you out of the hospital and the coffin.

 

These are the results of the largest Sinovac phase 3 trial in Brazil:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55642648

 

effectiveness in the 3 areas above:

 

* 50.4%  - pretty low, does not prevent virus transmission well

* 78%   - probably OK,  maybe better than the normal flu vaccines

* 100% - excellent, means anyone who was vaccinated was not hospitalized or died

 

The initial trials are against one strain, all these percents change as the virus mutates. There were very recent vaccination results for Sinovac from Brazil in regards to the Brazilian strain, and the numbers were confirmed to be more or less same as above.

 

As Sinovac and other vaccines are used now to the tune of hundreds of millions across the globe, more effectiveness data will come in the next few months.

 

 

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Someone you talked to is probably both right and wrong.

 

There are 3 levels of effectiveness in regards to the Covid vaccines:

 

* effectiveness of preventing virus transmission

* effectiveness of preventing "mild illness" - you get the virus and you do get sick, but the sickness level is like normal flu.

* effectiveness of preventing hospitalization and death - the vaccine keeps you out of the hospital and the coffin.

 

These are the results of the largest Sinovac phase 3 trial in Brazil:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55642648

 

effectiveness in the 3 areas above:

 

* 50.4%  - pretty low, does not prevent virus transmission well

* 78%   - probably OK,  maybe better than the normal flu vaccines

* 100% - excellent, means anyone who was vaccinated was not hospitalized or died

 

The initial trials are against one strain, all these percents change as the virus mutates. There were very recent vaccination results for Sinovac from Brazil in regards to the Brazilian strain, and the numbers were confirmed to be more or less same as above.

 

As Sinovac and other vaccines are used now to the tune of hundreds of millions across the globe, more effectiveness data will come in the next few months.

 

 

As those denigrating the Coronavac vaccine refuse to understand the in epidemiology "efficacy" and "effectiveness" have very precise meanings which differ greatly from their meanings in ordinary language. As you not, the most important takeaway is that it prevents deaths and serious illness. So discouraging its use is going to result in lots of needless deaths and suffering.

[sungod]

46 minutes ago, placeholder said:

That China's importation of other vaccines is no more a confession of inadequacy than it is for other countries to import vaccines. And that it doesn't mean that the their vaccine isn't very useful in fighting Covid.

And what about the UK?

[friendofthai]

We switch on TV and see that super-reliable sources tell us that the western vaccines are 200% super effective and 1000% superbest. And Chinese and Russian are very bad.
But the western people still want to know why everything is closed in Europe and everything is opened already in China and Russia that have forgotten about lockdowns and (in china) even about wearing masks.

Edited April 13, 2021 by friendofthai

[Arkady]

On 4/12/2021 at 10:45 AM, Kerryd said:

It would not surprise me at all to learn that what they use in China and what they export to other countries is not quite the same thing. (Kind of like how when this started and many countries in the West donated tons of high quality masks and medical supplies to China, but when those countries started needing that same stuff for themselves, China was selling them a lot of very low grade garbage. Selling. Not donating. That sparked more than a few conspiracy theories early on.)

One article notes that China isn't selling their vaccine to the US, Western Europe or Japan "due to the complexity of the approval process". In other words, their vaccine may not stand up to a proper testing process. China isn't importing any vaccines made in other countries either.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/top-official-admits-chinese-vaccines-have-low-effectiveness/ar-BB1fwlU5
 

 

I saw an article where someone in the Czech Republic was accusing Russia of sending doses of the Sputnik vaccine that was not the same stuff that had a 96% efficacy in the peer reviewed stage 3 trial report in the Lancet. There is no way of knowing whether the Russian and Chinese products are consistently the same formulation.

 

I don't think any Western country could even consider the Sinovac vaccine for approval because no stage 3 trial data has been published in a peer reviewed journal like the Lancet.  I don't think there is peer reviewed data on any of the other Chinese vaccines either but I could be wrong. Not really an issue for them, as they didn't need to sell them in the West.

[GinBoy2]

20 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

I saw an article where someone in the Czech Republic was accusing Russia of sending doses of the Sputnik vaccine that was not the same stuff that had a 96% efficacy in the peer reviewed stage 3 trial report in the Lancet. There is no way of knowing whether the Russian and Chinese products are consistently the same formulation.

 

I don't think any Western country could even consider the Sinovac vaccine for approval because no stage 3 trial data has been published in a peer reviewed journal like the Lancet.  I don't think there is peer reviewed data on any of the other Chinese vaccines either but I could be wrong. Not really an issue for them, as they didn't need to sell them in the West.

Well you are quite right, the FDA, EU or UK regulators would ever authorize emergency use, let alone full release without stage 3 trial data.

 

Which also starts alarm bells in my head when you look at the surprisingly low vaccination rates in China itself, given that they seem eager to export it as part of this vaccine diplomacy drive.

 

Forgive me, but I don't see the CCP as this benevolent organization willing to sacrifice it's own population for the greater good of mankind.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

Edited April 13, 2021 by GinBoy2

[friendofthai]

54 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

I saw an article where someone in the Czech Republic was accusing Russia of sending doses of the Sputnik vaccine that was not the same stuff that had a 96% efficacy in the peer reviewed stage 3 trial report in the Lancet. There is no way of knowing whether the Russian and Chinese products are consistently the same formulation.

 

I don't think any Western country could even consider the Sinovac vaccine for approval because no stage 3 trial data has been published in a peer reviewed journal like the Lancet.  I don't think there is peer reviewed data on any of the other Chinese vaccines either but I could be wrong. Not really an issue for them, as they didn't need to sell them in the West.

Looks like the authors in this article just forget to mention that this happened after the entire Slovakian administration was replaced. Seems like the authors also forget to mention that one week before this event, the Kremlin spokesman Peskov told the press that a dirty provocation against Sputnik V is being prepared right now in EU. The "analysis" was made in a lab that is not accredited in EU. That is violation of the contract. So Russia is claiming the vaccine back. Looks like the Slovakian government is trying to say that everything was ok with Sputnik right now.

The NYT called Sputnik V "geopolitical weapon of Moscow". So from their point of view they just defending you from this awful terrible weapon.

[gunderhill]

On 4/12/2021 at 4:55 AM, RichardColeman said:

 

I think the map of actual countries that are using this 50% vaccine speaks volumes - for desperation and poverty

With the  worlds  best scammers in the Chinese and  their total  lack of empathy I wouldn't  be surprised what's in  any of their vaccines,  just like their baby  milk fiasco. Money even more No.1  than Thailand.

[gunderhill]

I've got a really good idea, lets  have a  photo op  in the  middle  of a pandemic and not socially distance......<deleted> is  wrong with these  people, is everything a photo opportunity? Surprised they aren't all dong the conga.

Edited April 13, 2021 by gunderhill

[gunderhill]

4 hours ago, friendofthai said:

everything is opened already in China and Russia that have forgotten about lockdowns and (in china) even about wearing masks.

You really have to ask, I find that incredible, China 100% controls anything that comes out of it, disagree and u disappear, ask that  Russian guy  Alexei Navalny the one almost  killed  and still suffering at the hands of Putin.

[gunderhill]

On 4/12/2021 at 10:17 AM, rwill said:

I'm kind of leery of getting the AZ one too now that it has been confirmed that it does indeed have a 'very rare' chance of causing blood clots.

 

 

VERY rare is  what you need to bear in mind,  almost insignificant. If you had the full statistics for what is  going to  kill you in life daily  you wouldn't leave home although the roof  falling in on you or a nuclear blast on the roof may have more likelihood than that blood  clotting. Certainly  Thai roads will take you many time more  than that.

[RichardColeman]

30 minutes ago, gunderhill said:

With the  worlds  best scammers in the Chinese and  their total  lack of empathy I wouldn't  be surprised what's in  any of their vaccines,  just like their baby  milk fiasco. Money even more No.1  than Thailand.

I know it's a bit grim , but I am kinda looking forwards to seeing which vaccinated countries explode with infections and deaths after vaccination by certain vaccines

[gunderhill]

Just now, RichardColeman said:

I know it's a bit grim , but I am kinda looking forwards to seeing which vaccinated countries explode with infections and deaths after vaccination by certain vaccines

They have no empathy, Money is the ONLY thing that  matters to them.

[shdmn]

15 hours ago, faraday said:

To add to the last few comments...

 

Some people posted several months ago' that who would trust a vaccine that comes from the country where the virus started.

 

Seems they were right. However, Mr Placeholder, I hope will be able to 'put us right', na?

????

 

And there it is.   A rare glimpse into a posters true motivation, as nonsensical as it is.  

 

Sure, there are a lot of reasons to not trust the Chinese gov't but the fact the virus started there is NOT one of them.  Unless you believe the thoroughly debunked conspiracy they created it on purpose which is a whole other rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

Edited April 13, 2021 by shdmn

[faraday]

2 minutes ago, shdmn said:

And there it is.   A rare glimpse into a posters true motivation, as nonsensical as it is.  

 

Sure, there are a lot of reasons to not trust the Chinese gov't but the fact the virus started there is NOT one of them.  Unless you believe the thoroughly debunked conspiracy they created it on purpose which is a whole other rabbit hole I don't want to get into.

 Clearly, very clearly, you've mis-read my post.

 

Still, it makes you think you actually have an opinion.

 

Which you don't.

 

????