UK State Pensions - yet another sick joke?

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

It has everything to do with brexit, as outlined in your statement.

The government defense on frozen pensions is based on the legal requirement of a reciprocal agreement. There is no reciprocal agreement with the EU, it came to an end with brexit. A new agreement is in the pipeline and the current payment of the uprated pension is a temporary arrangement for 3 years on the expectation that the new agreement will be in place by then. Why should the EU get a new agreement and not other countries?

Amber Rudd, DWP minister at the time, said that the state pensioners living in the EU deserved to continue getting the full state pension as they had contributed to making the UK great. Obviously those of us living elsewhere made no contribution whatsoever, quite a kick in the teeth for those of us that served in the armed forces.

A competent legal team could pull the government argument apart but unfortunately we are a collection of relatively small groups around the world unable to attract any real attention.

I am perfectly aware there has been previous court cases but they were based on human rights which proved to be the wrong approach. There wouldn't be a case to answer if every UK state pension had been frozen.

So nothing to do with Brexit then.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Some of us do, but in principle you're right because there aren't enough of us, and being spread across the 650(?) constituencies of the UK we do not register as an influential "community".

What I find sad is that there is little sympathy amongst the population in general for us. If ever I post in newspaper comment columns about the issue of frozen pensions, or as I did last week about the apparent impossibility of obtaining a Covid vaccine in Thailand, the replies are almost all, in so many words, "Tough. You chose to go and live abroad, so you shouldn't expect anything from any British government agency". They don't know, or ignore the fact, that many of us, particularly pensioners are still paying our full whack of income tax to support "their" NHS and other government services to which we have no access, and there seems to be a latent resentment that we have chosen to leave their rain and misery behind. We are truly second-class citizens.

Absolutely spot on. Many I have mentioned the frozen pension to have been horrified, they don't have a clue.

In other circumstances demanding payment for something that wasn't available would be seen as fraud.

This is the statement from the briefing paper.

"The UK State Pension is payable worldwide to those who meet the qualifying conditions. It is up-rated where there is a legal requirement to do so, for example, where recipients are living in countries where there is a reciprocal agreement that provides for up-rating. The Government has no plans to change the policy on up-rating UK State Pensions overseas; the policy is longstanding and has been supported by successive Governments for over 70 years. The Government understands that people move abroad for many reasons and that this can have an impact on their finances. However, the decision to move abroad remains a personal choice. Advice that the UK State Pension is not up-rated overseas except where there is a legal requirement has been provided to the public for many years. "

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01457/

 

The so called "legal requirement" is determined by the government, they had no problem creating a "legal requirement" for uprating the state pension in the EU post brexit. It appears quite obvious they will continue to pursue their long standing discriminatory policy.

If historical precedence on discrimination was seen to be right, there would never have been any need for the Race Relations legislation and women wouldn't be allowed to vote.

 

The uprating legislation is embedded in the Social Security Act which comes before the House every year but the government will only allow time for debate on their proposed changes.

EDMs are a waste of time, never see the light of day, the last one on 8th March had only support from 32 ministers, 50% from the SNP. 

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/58223/uprating-of-state-pensions

[sandyf]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So nothing to do with Brexit then.

Like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

The U.K have been freezing pensions abroad for over 70 years , which was 23 years before the U.K even joined the E.U. , let alone leave the E.U 

   How can Brexit be responsible for frozen pensions ?

[Speedhump]

6 hours ago, bradiston said:

Hardly anything to shout about though, is it? How about lobbying your government to change their laws rather than sneering at the UK who have at least slightly more civilized ones? And anyone retiring to NZ or Oz or Canada won't get the annual pension rise, but in the US, they will. Figure that out!

You know there are more whinging Kiwis than Poms. 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

yes, pray explain.... uk pensions are naff all to do with eu....or brexit fcs....

scandalous they are so low relative to av.income though....

eu pensions seem generous until you see the c**p eu salaries & taxes !

eu dont understand self employment very well..nearly everyone must be “employed” and taxed at source PAYE....

in my profession as uk contractor I have earned 6-8 times eu salary for the same work......with minimal tax.... so ten times the disposable eu income....

and forget private pension schemes which halved in value 2008-9.....

my pension is my saved asset wealth.........

 

but curiously I still qualify for uk min.pension GBP 105 week when 67.....

and still get Free UK NHS......paid tax but no uk tax / ni for over 30 years......

 

as for the gloating USA  / EU here... yes you may have a fat pension but you’ve paid for it ten times over with high taxes and just having to survive in unhealthy dangerous (USA) West....as you typically wont survive 5-8 years in retirement .....if being typically obese/diabetic /respiratory / heart diseased. ....actuaries have it worked out you know........

 

cue emojis of covid / cancer / pneumonia viruses & arterial,plaque & stroke factors; rubbing their hands.....fat sick rich retired farangs.....dinner is served !

 

 

 

 

[bradiston]

6 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I wasn't scared I just prefer to be honest.

I sent an email to DWP (IPC) asking if I come to UK do I have inform you when I return to Thailand.

They said no we would normally have that information already.

So be careful those you that are doing something naulty. 555 ????

I find this very intriguing. Just how do they "normally have that information"? If they did, then they would be able to comb through their records and figure out the departure and arrival dates and the destination and departure point of any UK pensioner. I really do not believe they could possibly have that information. I don't know what the situation is now at Border Control or whatever stupid name they give immigration in the UK, but the most they could have got from swiping your passport is departure/arrival date and time. They don't look at the stamps in your passport unless, presumably, something flags up. No flight numbers, nothing. Unless they have access to airline passenger lists going back years, I don't see how they can know when you flew out to, or back from, anywhere.

 

Maybe somebody can shed some light on this, but it would seem to me this is either a downright lie, or a bluff (same thing really) to put the fear on you.

Edited July 18, 2021 by bradiston

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

I find this very intriguing. Just how do they "normally have that information"? If they did, then they would be able to comb through their records and figure out the departure and arrival dates and the destination and departure point of any UK pensioner. I really do not believe they could possibly have that information. I don't know what the situation is now at Border Control or whatever stupid name they give immigration in the UK, but the most they could have got from swiping your passport is arrival date and time. They don't look at the stamps in your passport unless, presumably, something flags up. No flight numbers, nothing. Unless they have access to airline passenger lists going back years, I don't see how they can know when you flew out to, or back from, anywhere.

 

Maybe somebody can shed some light on this, but it would seem to me this is either a downright lie, or a bluff (same thing really) to put the fear on you. Mind games!

Possibly dunno what tech they are up to or into,  I emailed them recently asking if they have sent a  Life Form to me during this covid crisis because twice I've had my pension stopped, they say there is no record of that this time.  

They at least can see I am still in contact with them they have my Phone number. 

[Jumbo1968]

14 minutes ago, bradiston said:

I find this very intriguing. Just how do they "normally have that information"? If they did, then they would be able to comb through their records and figure out the departure and arrival dates and the destination and departure point of any UK pensioner. I really do not believe they could possibly have that information. I don't know what the situation is now at Border Control or whatever stupid name they give immigration in the UK, but the most they could have got from swiping your passport is departure/arrival date and time. They don't look at the stamps in your passport unless, presumably, something flags up. No flight numbers, nothing. Unless they have access to airline passenger lists going back years, I don't see how they can know when you flew out to, or back from, anywhere.

 

Maybe somebody can shed some light on this, but it would seem to me this is either a downright lie, or a bluff (same thing really) to put the fear on you.

The data on your passport which is contained in the metallic strip or chip is to check the details on your passport match them.

 

 

[Jumbo1968]

I think the HMRC should be more concerned about the false claims for the Furlough Scheme which I believe is in excess of 4 billion pounds !

[fredscats]

6 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I wasn't scared I just prefer to be honest.

I sent an email to DWP (IPC) asking if I come to UK do I have inform you when I return to Thailand.

They said no we would normally have that information already.

So be careful those you that are doing something naulty. 555 ????

They  DWP have no information on anything other than what is volunteered and I do prefer to be honestly engaged in a totally dishonest and unfair system to penalise an individual (me) who has paid his dues in full.

  I'm not answering all your replies as it would take a full page (again)  other to say the DWP cannot do as you suggest anything they like,their hands are tied,read instruction,just read the site,PLEASE READ THE SITE There was an attempt some time ago to prove that wrong,however careful investigation uncovered the truth behind that scheme,even the name of individual concerned

 

There are distinguishing details of State and PC which separate them by miles

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, Jumbo1968 said:

The data on your passport which is contained in the metallic strip or chip is to check the details on your passport match them.

 

 

Sorry, match what? What information can it store about your destination and point of departure? Does the chip get updated when leaving Suvarnabhumi for instance? That would be interesting. But I'm pretty sure the DWP does not have access to the data held on your passport. Or does it? If they do, so would HMRC and every other government agency.

[Jumbo1968]

3 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Sorry, match what? What information can it store about your destination and point of departure? Does the chip get updated when leaving Suvarnabhumi for instance? That would be interesting. But I'm pretty sure the DWP does not have access to the data held on your passport. Or does it? If they do, so would HMRC and every other government agency.

The chip contains the same details as on the main page, name, D.O.B. expiry date of the passport etc.

I have never passed through Border Control when leaving the U.K. so no one knows where I am, yes they check when you travel back but they have no idea where you have been or when you left the country.

[Joinaman]

On 7/9/2021 at 8:15 PM, billzant said:

Richard, please clarify details on this. I understood that if I returned to the UK (or went to the Phillipines!) my pension would be unfrozen and I would receive the UK rate. I assumed that if I then returned to Thailand I would go back to the frozen rate. I am unlikely to do it but would like to know what I would have to do.

Go back to the UK, and apply for a pension in the UK. How long would that take? How long would I have to live there?

On returning to Thailand would I have to re-apply for my pension from Thailand?

 

can you not find someone to use their home address, so making them think you reside in England

I use my sons address, just like a few of my friends do here, that way we manage to get the small pittance rise  that they allow us to have 

[Joinaman]

On 7/10/2021 at 6:18 PM, jojothai said:

Do you have a bank or financial account of any kind in the UK?
What address do they use for you.
Are any accounts declared as non-taxable,
or do they have any reason to believe that you are working or resident abroad.

I have UK banks, Uk address for postal, Non taxable accounts, and no reason for them  to think I'm abroad 

Make no tax payments, make no annual statements

So as far as they are concerned, I am a UK resident 

So continue to get the annual increases, for what they are worth 

[bluezircon]

I imagine DWP check if you're in the UK the same as if you're buying eCigs online, they check credit file to verify you are over 18. The same with taking out insurance or opening saving accounts they'll do an identity check with one of the credit agencies.

 

As long as you have a UK address (maybe use friends or families) for any kind of credit account, even a current account you should be ok. It maybe helps if you're registered to vote at that address. Of Course that would be a problem if the person living there had any benefits (ie single person Council Tax discount etc.). If you can't think of a suitable friends address in UK maybe someone you know in the EU would let you say your living at their address.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by bluezircon
spelling

[Joinaman]

I wonder what would happen, if like me and a few friends, who have no property in the UK, were to return to live

Obviously, with no home, then would need all the basic things, like flat, house, furniture, , plus all the additional benefits that would be available 

Couple of friends have said that if it gets worse here, or they have pension problems, they would fly back, and then go sit in the Benfits office until they got everything they are entitled to

Their view is what can they do to them, , if immigrants can get these benefits, why not pensioners 

[bluezircon]

4 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

I wonder what would happen, if like me and a few friends, who have no property in the UK, were to return to live

Obviously, with no home, then would need all the basic things, like flat, house, furniture, , plus all the additional benefits that would be available 

Couple of friends have said that if it gets worse here, or they have pension problems, they would fly back, and then go sit in the Benfits office until they got everything they are entitled to

Their view is what can they do to them, , if immigrants can get these benefits, why not pensioners 

I suppose it depends which Council you try that with. The thought of spending 6 mouths in Sheltered accommodation with homeless, junkies and immigrants only to be given a council flat in the roughest part of town doesn't sound like a great retirement plan. 

[vinny41]

26 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

I wonder what would happen, if like me and a few friends, who have no property in the UK, were to return to live

Obviously, with no home, then would need all the basic things, like flat, house, furniture, , plus all the additional benefits that would be available 

Couple of friends have said that if it gets worse here, or they have pension problems, they would fly back, and then go sit in the Benfits office until they got everything they are entitled to

Their view is what can they do to them, , if immigrants can get these benefits, why not pensioners 

The 1st hurdle they will have to pass is the habitual residence test until that passed the council will simply ask security for you to be removed

 

A person is exempt from the habitual residence test if they are in the UK because they were deported, expelled or compulsorily removed from another country to the UK.[4]

https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/homelessness_applications/eligibility_for_homeless_assistance/habitual_residence_test_for_homelessness_assistance

Edited July 18, 2021 by vinny41

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

yes, pray explain.... uk pensions are naff all to do with eu....or brexit fcs....

scandalous they are so low relative to av.income though....

eu pensions seem generous until you see the c**p eu salaries & taxes !

eu dont understand self employment very well..nearly everyone must be “employed” and taxed at source PAYE....

in my profession as uk contractor I have earned 6-8 times eu salary for the same work......with minimal tax.... so ten times the disposable eu income....

and forget private pension schemes which halved in value 2008-9.....

my pension is my saved asset wealth.........

 

but curiously I still qualify for uk min.pension GBP 105 week when 67.....

and still get Free UK NHS......paid tax but no uk tax / ni for over 30 years......

 

as for the gloating USA  / EU here... yes you may have a fat pension but you’ve paid for it ten times over with high taxes and just having to survive in unhealthy dangerous (USA) West....as you typically wont survive 5-8 years in retirement .....if being typically obese/diabetic /respiratory / heart diseased. ....actuaries have it worked out you know........

 

cue emojis of covid / cancer / pneumonia viruses & arterial,plaque & stroke factors; rubbing their hands.....fat sick rich retired farangs.....dinner is served !

 

 

 

 

You should get at least 150 quid then.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

Yes. Beautiful Brexit.

[hotandsticky]

10 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I was told that people living here having a pension paid into a UK  bank and they have a UK address DWP don't send Life Forms.!!! 

All I can say is that my friend was sent a letter. He used his son's UK address and (at that time) the pension was paid into Lloyds TSB.

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

The 1st hurdle they will have to pass is the habitual residence test until that passed the council will simply ask security for you to be removed

 

A person is exempt from the habitual residence test if they are in the UK because they were deported, expelled or compulsorily removed from another country to the UK.[4]

https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/homelessness_applications/eligibility_for_homeless_assistance/habitual_residence_test_for_homelessness_assistance

but what if they left voluntary ?

Which could be  due to health, money or just life problems and the wish to return to possibly friends or family 

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, bluezircon said:

I suppose it depends which Council you try that with. The thought of spending 6 mouths in Sheltered accommodation with homeless, junkies and immigrants only to be given a council flat in the roughest part of town doesn't sound like a great retirement plan. 

but much better health care , and if unable to afford health care in Thailand, what choice ?

Seen a few people going back home, USA, UK due to high cost of health care here

But yes, not my idea either, but with all the extra benefits and NHS, maybe worth it for some 

[vinny41]

13 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

but what if they left voluntary ?

Which could be  due to health, money or just life problems and the wish to return to possibly friends or family 

Returning to family and friends isn't a problem, assuming that the person would be living at family or friends property  problem arises when they want to claim housing or rent

 

my understanding is that you have to take the habitual residence test which can take between 3-6 months

You won't be able to claim benefits or get a council home if you failed the habitual residence test.

 

If you're struggling to pay for food, you could get help from a food bank.

Your local council might also be able to help you. They might cover essential living costs or find you somewhere to live

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/claiming-benefits-if-youre-from-the-EU/problems-with-your-claim/if-youve-failed-the-habitual-residence-test/

 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, hotandsticky said:

All I can say is that my friend was sent a letter. He used his son's UK address and (at that time) the pension was paid into Lloyds TSB.

Yeah I no doubt, I'm just saying if Life Forms are sent out randomly they should be sent everyone not just people abroad.

[bluezircon]

2 hours ago, Joinaman said:

but much better health care , and if unable to afford health care in Thailand, what choice ?

Seen a few people going back home, USA, UK due to high cost of health care here

But yes, not my idea either, but with all the extra benefits and NHS, maybe worth it for some 

True, the NHS with free health care is the main benefit. However NHS has taken a beating due to Covid, for example I know people on the NHS emergency dental waiting list who've waited almost a year. Yes their operations were classed as an emergency but no staff are available. However for the most part Health Care is infinitely better than Thailand and free.

 

Someone mentioned free furniture as one of the potential benefits available in the UK. I can confirm my local Council did away with that shortly after the 2007 financial crash. Also I wouldn't be too sure about foodbanks, here at least you need a referral from the Job Centre. Not going to happen during a potential future lockdown or if the "Job Coach" or whatever they're calling themselves now doesn't like your story.

 

Still if people can't live comfortably in Thailand with silly medical insurance costs I totally get why they'd think of going home.

 

[treetops]

7 hours ago, Jumbo1968 said:

I have never passed through Border Control when leaving the U.K. so no one knows where I am, yes they check when you travel back but they have no idea where you have been or when you left the country.

API information supplied for every flight into or out of the UK gives the government that information.  Whether it's shared with the DWP, I have no idea.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, treetops said:

API information supplied for every flight into or out of the UK gives the government that information.  Whether it's shared with the DWP, I have no idea.

According to this article the DWP can access API information if required

Benefits cheat claimed she lived in Spain to help her health

She initially denied living abroad altogether, before finally admitting she had moved to Spain when confronted with flight records.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/06/benefits-cheat-claimed-lived-spain-help-health-11049460/

Edited July 18, 2021 by vinny41
typo

[fredscats]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

According to this article the DWP can access API information if required

Benefits cheat claimed she lived in Spain to help her health

She initially denied living abroad altogether, before finally admitting she had moved to Spain when confronted with flight records.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/06/benefits-cheat-claimed-lived-spain-help-health-11049460/

 "In total, she was overpaid a total of £41,467.19 in disability living allowance (DLA), housing benefit, and council tax benefit between 2012 and 2017."  

 

Nothing about State Pension then?

 

Nothing like a punter getting hold of a four year English language  Filipino rag,stating "DereK" had been "found out" living illegally on pension in PH, and quoting on TV that as the ultimate truth ,pity it went out of circulation on next installment,maybe got its facts wrong

Edited July 19, 2021 by fredscats