Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[EVENKEEL]

8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

She does not suggest that the virus will become less deadly or less infectious, only that we will control it with vaccines just as we control the common cold.

Gee, you mean there's a cold vaccine. I take a little vit c and some other vitamins but no vaccine.

[EVENKEEL]

I applaud those with enough conviction not to be vaccinated. If your work environment allows you to choose then I surly don't have a problem with that.

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

Are you vaccinated?

Yes, I posted my experience of the process on this sub-forum and I have encouraged and actively helped others get their vaccine.

 

Next.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

No, she is specifically saying that the virus is going to be just like any of the other coronaviruses that cause the common cold:

 

"These other coronavirus are causes of the common cold and Gilbert said: “Eventually Sars-CoV-2 will become one of those.”

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-19-will-just-end-up-causing-a-cold-says-oxford-vaccine-creator-sarah-gilbert-npkds93zd#top

 

She is also saying that the virus will become less lethal, not more, as it mutates:

 

“We normally see that viruses become less virulent as they circulate more easily and there is no reason to think we will have a more virulent version of Sars-CoV-2,” she said.

 

And yet he we are with the Delta Strain which is far more virulent than its predecessors in this COVID-19 pandemic.

 

COVID-19 Delta, piling up the bodies.

 

An inconvenient fact staring you in the face.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I applaud those with enough conviction not to be vaccinated. If your work environment allows you to choose then I surly don't have a problem with that.

But not enough conviction to go get another job.

 

So get the shots and continue to join the voices encouraging others not to get the shots.

 

’I’m all right Jack’ comes to mind.

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I applaud those with enough conviction not to be vaccinated. If your work environment allows you to choose then I surly don't have a problem with that.

Go Lemmings!

[placeholder]

Just now, placeholder said:

Go Lemmings!

Or maybe rather Go Kamikazes!

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

But not enough conviction to go get another job.

 

So get the shots and continue to join the voices encouraging others not to get the shots.

 

’I’m all right Jack’ comes to mind.

joe's handing out covid bucks like candy, jobs will be obsolete soon.

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Go Lemmings!

 

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Or maybe rather Go Kamikazes!

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

[robblok]

16 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

I'm very clearly about what I wrote:

 

1. Professor Sarah Gilbert, the inventor of the Astra-Zeneca vaccine has said that the virus will become more like a common cold:

 

"Gilbert suggested, however, that illness caused by the virus would become ever milder. She said: “We tend to see slow genetic drift of the virus and there will be gradual immunity developing in the population as there is to all the other seasonal coronaviruses.”

These other coronavirus are causes of the common cold and Gilbert said: “Eventually Sars-CoV-2 will become one of those.”

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-19-will-just-end-up-causing-a-cold-says-oxford-vaccine-creator-sarah-gilbert-npkds93zd#top

 

2. Natural immunity is longer lasting than vaccine induced immunity

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

3. Vaccines only provide 49% protection against infection from the Delta variant

 

"The researchers estimated that two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine are 49% effective at preventing infection with the delta variant, in line with recent data from Israel and much lower than previous estimates."

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/08/04/fully-vaccinated-half-as-likely-to-catch-delta-covid-variant-and-less-likely-to-infect-others-study-finds/?sh=299660bd281c

 

Given the fact that only 2.9% of the world population even have the virus, meaning 97.1% do not have the virus, and given data form the Lancet that of those who have the virus 80% only have a mild or asymptomatic course of illness, hospitalisation of those who have it is only required in 14.2% of cases, and of those only 2.2% have to go to the ICU it is very clear that the risk of dying of Covid is considerably smaller than initially reported.

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00074-0/fulltext

 

Given that Professor Gilbert further underlines that the virus will be akin to the common cold indeed one has to conclude that those who have decided not to vaccinate got it right, and those who decided to vaccinate did so for very little protection against a very small risk, yet took on new risks.

 

Clearly those who decide not to vaccinate have come out on top.

 

I will ignore all points besides the point about the low risk of covid. What suprises me is that if you go into that study the death rate is 7.5% of all covid infections. That is a really high rate. Its even far higher then the 2.2% that go to ICU. So actually according to that study covid is really deadly. Why do you use a study like that for your claims ?

 

So actually the study does not support your argument. And the other stuff has been done to death and you been discredited too. Isnt it time to give up.

 

 

 

 

[robblok]

33 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

You mean like drinking and driving ? as you admit to doing so. Actually now that i think about it right up your alley as a stupid action. So you say you have no guts and got vaccinated for work while here your so vocal anti vax. 

 

So are you antivax light ? I mean moan a bit groan a bit post a bit of misinformation but then conform and get vaxxed because otherwise you will lose money ?

[EVENKEEL]

34 minutes ago, robblok said:

You mean like drinking and driving ? as you admit to doing so. Actually now that i think about it right up your alley as a stupid action. So you say you have no guts and got vaccinated for work while here your so vocal anti vax. 

 

So are you antivax light ? I mean moan a bit groan a bit post a bit of misinformation but then conform and get vaxxed because otherwise you will lose money ?

Man, the other guy really got you worked up ahahahaa. You're all over the place. Yes, I don't believe a vaccine which has just begun to be administered should be deemed safe when we don't know the long term side effects yet. I don't see how a reasonable person can disagree. I'm vaccinating to conform. No entry to my homeland in USA in Nov without vaccine docs, entry back to TL is easier being vaccinated, if I were still working my Fed job it would become mandatory. Just as my anthrax and smallpox and every other vaccine known to modern man was mandatory to work out of the Persian Gulf. It does not alter my annoyance at people who blindly accept what is told them. Give the vaccine a decade or so and we can come to a conclusion perhaps. Or maybe in a decade covid will be nothing more than a common cold. Give me time and I'll try to come up with a witty term for the opposite of what is that antivaccer. 

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

Luckily we have laws and public policy to curb the worst instincts of fools who reject common sense in pursuit of a political agenda..

Edited September 24, 2021 by ozimoron

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Man, the other guy really got you worked up ahahahaa. You're all over the place. Yes, I don't believe a vaccine which has just begun to be administered should be deemed safe when we don't know the long term side effects yet. I don't see how a reasonable person can disagree. I'm vaccinating to conform. No entry to my homeland in USA in Nov without vaccine docs, entry back to TL is easier being vaccinated, if I were still working my Fed job it would become mandatory. Just as my anthrax and smallpox and every other vaccine known to modern man was mandatory to work out of the Persian Gulf. It does not alter my annoyance at people who blindly accept what is told them. Give the vaccine a decade or so and we can come to a conclusion perhaps. Or maybe in a decade covid will be nothing more than a common cold. Give me time and I'll try to come up with a witty term for the opposite of what is that antivaccer. 

Im not worked up the other guy is a clown, does not even check the sources he uses to support his views and twists everything, then when proven wrong he ignores it. Actually on par for antivaxxers.

 

Ok so your a light version of antivaxers, obviously you don't worry too much about side effects otherwise you would never have been vaccinated. 

 

I mean what is more stupid then thinking there is a problem with vaccines and taking them anyway. I mean no reasonable man would do that. So either you don't think the problems are that big or your not a reasonable man.

 

So what is it, your not reasonable because who would take something they consider dangerous just for comforts sake or you think the risks are not that high.

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday endorsed booster shots for millions of older or otherwise vulnerable Americans, opening a major new phase in the U.S vaccination drive against COVID-19. CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky signed off on a series of recommendations from a panel of advisers late Thursday. The advisers said boosters should be offered to people 65 and older, nursing home residents and those ages 50 to 64 who have risky underlying health problems. The extra dose would be given once they are at least six months past their last Pfizer shot.

 

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

You wrote "I applaud those with enough conviction not to be vaccinated. " Do you applaud them when their convictions lead to hospitals turning away patients? Maybe if these people you applalud accepted the consequences of their convictions and agreed to die at home and not make others suffer for their convictions, you might have a point. As it stands, they are selfish fools who prove time and time again that they don't have the courage of their convictions. Here's some evidence: 

 

Hospitals in Alaska struggle to handle a worsening outbreak

Alaska, once a leader in vaccinating its citizens, is now in the throes of its worst coronavirus surge of the pandemic, as the Delta variant rips through the state, swamping hospitals with patients.

As of Thursday, the state was averaging 125 new cases a day for every 100,000 people, more than any other in the nation, according to recent data trends collected by The New York Times...

On Wednesday, the state said it had activated “crisis standards of care,” giving hospitals legal protections for triage decisions that force them to give some patients substandard care.

 

And this:

Today in Idaho hospitals and COVID-19 (updated 9/23): Patients, ERs, ICUs

 

"Idaho last week moved into a statewide declaration of “crisis standards of care,” which gives hospitals, nurses and doctors an ethical framework to use scarce resources. At its most extreme, crisis standards offers a scoring system for health care providers to use in determining who gets life-saving care, such as a ventilator.

Almost every person hospitalized with COVID-19 is not fully vaccinated.

https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/09/23/today-in-idaho-hospitals-and-covid-19-patients-er-visits-and-capacity/

The article goes on to say that very few ICU beds are occupied by vaccinated patients.

 

And This

Alabama has ‘negative’ ICU beds available

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (WSFA) - As of Tuesday, Alabama was out of intensive care unit beds, but the number of inpatients needing ICU treatment continues to increase.

“We’ve never been here before. We are in truly now in uncharted territory in terms of our ICU bed capacity,” said Alabama Hospital Association President Dr. Don Williamson.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/17/alabama-has-negative-icu-beds-available/

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Do you applaud them when their convictions lead to hospitals turning away patients?

There does appear to be a strong correlation between anti vaxers and narcissism. They babble on about "freedom of choice" while completely ignoring the danger to others of their recklessness. Nobody would care if the only danger posed was to themselves.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

 

Personal choice has a very wide range. 

 

Society has shown that it can’t be trusted to self police because personal choice leads to devastating consequences when some exercise their freedoms for personal choose without considering any of the consequences. 

 

Drink driving has been exampled - I think most agree that it policing is required as there are numbers of people who would get into their car blind drunk without consideration for the safety of innocent others. 

 

Motorcycle helmet wearing creates more of a debate as some believe its ‘victimless’ while others suggest there are knockoff effects social and economic.

 

Then of course we have Vaccines, where it could be argued there is a degree of social responsibility to vaccinate and contribute towards the protection of society on a whole, where as those who do not wish to vaccinate do not recognise how their actions to not vaccinate may impact society. 

 

 

There are personal choices - but some ‘personal choices’ impact society to varying degrees.

 

It's a grey area and the balance between freedom and choice and the benefits to society need to be evaluated carefully. 

 

From the point of view of vaccines, I believe the requirement to ensure society is protected outweigh freedom of personal choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I don't believe a vaccine which has just begun to be administered should be deemed safe when we don't know the long term side effects yet.

But we know the damaging effects of Covid-19 and the stats vs risk of vaccines. 

The long term risks of Covid-19 are starting to be known. 

We don’t know the long term risks and side effects of the vaccines because in all but a very few rare examples, there aren’t any long term side effects to study. 

 

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I don't see how a reasonable person can disagree.

I get the point of long term risk - but do those who consider ‘long term risk of vaccines’ also not consider the long term risk of anything else they consume?... do they consider the risk each and every time they get on a motorcycle or take car journey etc etc....

 

IF the risk of a vaccine is to be considered, then surely a ‘reasonable’ person also considers all other risks in perspective ????

 

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm vaccinating to conform. No entry to my homeland in USA in Nov without vaccine docs, entry back to TL is easier being vaccinated, if I were still working my Fed job it would become mandatory. Just as my anthrax and smallpox and every other vaccine known to modern man was mandatory to work out of the Persian Gulf.

Most are vaccinating to confirm. We do not undertake studies ourselves but trust reputable information sources. 

I too am vaccinated through work, but I would otherwise be seeking the vaccination to better protect myself and those around me.

 

I believe the science behind the vaccination and have not read any thing which concerns me other than VITT. 

But, VITT can also occur with any other form of vaccination and not solely a Covid-19 vaccine related issue. 

 

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

It does not alter my annoyance at people who blindly accept what is told them. Give the vaccine a decade or so and we can come to a conclusion perhaps.

Of course, but who takes the vaccines over that decade for you to evaluate its long term safety. 

 

The reality is: The vaccines are out of our system within days - it is the antibodies which remain. 

 

 

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Or maybe in a decade covid will be nothing more than a common cold.

Without vaccines, maybe in a decade the death toll and evolution of the virus may have reached catastrophic levels. 

 

 

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Give me time and I'll try to come up with a witty term for the opposite of what is that antivaccer. 

‘informed’

 

 

[lucky2008]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

COVID-19 Delta, piling up the bodies.

 

Get real man, you're always over exaggerating sh#t and trying to scare people.  

There's a 98% survival rate if you catch this "virus."  And don't go talking about the long-haul side effects because you still don't even know what yours are going to be. 

Half the world is going to stay unvaccinated.

And NO most of will stay unvaccinated even if it means we have to leave the country. 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, lucky2008 said:

And NO most of will stay unvaccinated even if it means we have to leave the country. 

Sounds good to me.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, lucky2008 said:

Get real man, you're always over exaggerating sh#t and trying to scare people.  

There's a 98% survival rate if you catch this "virus."  And don't go talking about the long-haul side effects because you still don't even know what yours are going to be. 

Half the world is going to stay unvaccinated.

And NO most of will stay unvaccinated even if it means we have to leave the country. 

It's a good thing hospital ICU's aren't being overwhelmed by the unvaccinated and resulting in the rationing of care and triage...oh wait a minute..

[cdemundo]

27 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

We don’t know the long term risks and side effects of the vaccines because

"We don’t know the long term risks and side effects of the vaccines because..."

Repeatedly discussed in these threads.

 

Briefly, current vaccines ingredients are similar to those used in past vaccines where side effects became apparent before 2-4 months had passed.

Comparisons to drugs that were taken daily or more frequently over along period of time, months, years; versus, vaccines 1 or 2 (possibly 3) shots taken weeks apart.  So drugs in the body in high concentrations constantly for long periods of time; vaccines single doses weeks apart.

Not really comparable.

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

"We don’t know the long term risks and side effects of the vaccines because..."

Repeatedly discussed in these threads.

 

Briefly, current vaccines ingredients are similar to those used in past vaccines where side effects became apparent before 2-4 months had passed.

Comparisons to drugs that were taken daily or more frequently over along period of time, months, years; versus, vaccines 1 or 2 (possibly 3) shots taken weeks apart.  So drugs in the body in high concentrations constantly for long periods of time; vaccines single doses weeks apart.

Not really comparable.

 

Not just that. But there's no proof that any vaccines result in some kind of long term effects somewhere later in time. Whereas we know that many polio patients suddenly weaken and die later in life. And many of those infected with chickenpox later come down with shingles, an extraordinarily painful illness. 

[lucky2008]

 

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not just that. But there's no proof that any vaccines result in some kind of long term effects somewhere later in time. Whereas we know that many polio patients suddenly weaken and die later in life. And many of those infected with chickenpox later come down with shingles, an extraordinarily painful illness. 

Good point! 

More the reason to wait before getting the pokey poke. 

[lucky2008]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

I think it's because they're scared thinking they made the wrong choice. 
 

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, lucky2008 said:

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

Not sure why some have such a hatred of people exercising personal choice.

I think it's because they're scared thinking they made the wrong choice. 

Nope... think again... 

 

Hatred is a strong term.... I would go with a lack of tolerance for stupidity and selfishness - be it someone who exercises personal choice and drives while drunk, or someone who believes their choice not to vaccinate has no consequences for anyone else.... 

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Nope... think again... 

 

Hatred is a strong term.... I would go with a lack of tolerance for stupidity and selfishness - be it someone who exercises personal choice and drives while drunk, or someone who believes their choice not to vaccinate has no consequences for anyone else.... 

 

 

Oh, there has been posts calling unvacced murderers, some wish death upon them. If you were to have the statistics of the reason behind getting vaccinated, I'll bet you it's to avoid death and serious illness and not for other's sake. If they were honest.

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

 

Good point! 

More the reason to wait before getting the pokey poke. 

And your comments explains why there are so many anti covid vaxxers out there. Apparently, they live in opposite-world.

[lucky2008]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Nope... think again... 

 

Hatred is a strong term.... I would go with a lack of tolerance for stupidity and selfishness - be it someone who exercises personal choice and drives while drunk, or someone who believes their choice not to vaccinate has no consequences for anyone else.... 

 

 

Are you comparing and unvaccinated person to a drunk driver? 

How is an unvaccinated person a threat I still don't get it?