Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[niccodemi]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:58 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Did you read the article before posting?

 

Vaccinated individuals who suffer breakthrough infections can carry as high a viral load as non vaccinated.

 

1. Breakthrough infections are the small number of of vaccinated people who get sick with COVID - already significantly less than unvaccinated people.

 

2. ‘Can carry as high a viral load’ is not ‘do always carry the same viral load’.

 

3. ‘Viral load’ is not transmission of infection.

 

4 The evidence is consistently mounting, vaccinations are drastically reducing the spread of this wretched disease:

 

You are right of course; I was simply pointing out that unfortunately vaccinated are still being able to spread disease. This finding was one of the reasons that made CDC reverse their guidance on wearing masks indoors few months ago.

[niccodemi]

21 hours ago, placeholder said:

And hospital ICU's aren't being overwhelmed because of the refusal of so many not to vaccinate? Care isn't being rationed because of them? What is so difficult to understand that the overwhelming majority those with life-threatening symptoms or deaths from Covid are among the unvaccinated?

UK technical briefing 23 (1 February 2021 to 12 September 2021)

Vaccinated (>14 days post 2nd dose)  Unvaccinated   

Delta Cases   157,400    257,357

Emergency care visits      6,265 (3.98%)   11,678 (4.53%)    

/w overnight inpatient admission    2,361  (1.5%)  3,080 (1.2%)      

Deaths (within 28 days)    1,613 (1%)     722 (0.3%)                                            

Overwhelming, really?

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by niccodemi

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, niccodemi said:

UK technical briefing 23 (1 February 2021 to 12 September 2021)

Vaccinated (>14 days post 2nd dose)  Unvaccinated   

Delta Cases   157,400    257,357

Emergency care visits      6,265 (3.98%)   11,678 (4.53%)    

/w overnight inpatient admission    2,361  (1.5%)  3,080 (1.2%)      

Deaths (within 28 days)    1,613 (1%)     722 (0.3%)                                            

Overwhelming, really?

 

These data are meaningless without more detail.

 

Please provide a breakdown of vaccinated and unvaccinated.

 

Emergency care visits vaccinated =?

Emergency care visits unvaccinated =?

 

overnight/admission vaccinated =?

overnight/admission unvaccinated =?

 

Deaths vaccinated=?

Deaths unvaccinated =?

 

Be clear so I can be clear in my response.

 

But before you do respond, read this from the source you are relying on:

“2 doses of the vaccine remain highly effective, with 60 to 85% effectiveness
against infection, 90 to 99% effectiveness against hospitalisation, 90 to 95% against mortality and 65 to 99% against symptomatic disease”

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1018547/Technical_Briefing_23_21_09_16.pdf

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, niccodemi said:

You are right of course; I was simply pointing out that unfortunately vaccinated are still being able to spread disease. This finding was one of the reasons that made CDC reverse their guidance on wearing masks indoors few months ago.

Still able to transmit the disease but at a dramatically reduced rate.

 

As has been discussed frequently in this thread.

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, niccodemi said:

UK technical briefing 23 (1 February 2021 to 12 September 2021)

Vaccinated (>14 days post 2nd dose)  Unvaccinated   

Delta Cases   157,400    257,357

Emergency care visits      6,265 (3.98%)   11,678 (4.53%)    

/w overnight inpatient admission    2,361  (1.5%)  3,080 (1.2%)      

Deaths (within 28 days)    1,613 (1%)     722 (0.3%)                                            

Overwhelming, really?

 

One thing isn't noted in these statistics is the average age of each group. Also, those who were not senior citizens but judged to be more vulnerable.The UK's senior citizens and ohters more vulnerable were vaccinated first. So not only are they inherently more vulnerable, but the vaccines' effectiveness gets lower over time. 

Most COVID deaths in England now are in the vaccinated – here’s why that shouldn’t alarm you

"The risk of dying from COVID doubles roughly every seven years older a patient is. The 35-year difference between a 35-year-old and a 70-year-old means the risk of death between the two patients has doubled five times – equivalently it has increased by a factor of 32. An unvaccinated 70-year-old might be 32 times more likely to die of COVID than an unvaccinated 35-year-old. This dramatic variation of the risk profile with age means that even excellent vaccines don’t reduce the risk of death for older people to below the risk for some younger demographics."

https://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671

 

Fact Check-England’s COVID-19 death statistics do not suggest vaccines aren’t working

“It is important to understand the whole context to avoid misunderstanding data,” said Dr Shamaila Anwar, science communicator at Team Halo (teamhalo.org/).

Speaking to Reuters, she noted the importance of accounting for the demographics of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals, especially as Britain’s inoculation programme has prioritised those who are older or clinically vulnerable.

Anwar added that data currently shows the number of infections is “much less” in the vaccinated population, which indicates that “vaccination is working”.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-covid-england/fact-check-englands-covid-19-death-statistics-do-not-suggest-vaccines-arent-working-idUSL2N2OJ1ET

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by placeholder

[Jeffr2]

On 9/30/2021 at 3:36 AM, EVENKEEL said:

Impossible to equate covid booster and the flu jab. I can go about everyday life without the flu jab but not so with covid.

Impossible to equate the flu with covid. I can go about everyday life with the flu, but not so with covid.

 

Ya just don't get it, do you?

[ChaiyaTH]

On 9/30/2021 at 10:36 PM, cdemundo said:

What about the friend of your brother-in-law's dentist? How is he doing?

Ok so to be more specific, a close friend as well his wife and kid, and they are still hospitalized, guess that is funny or something. But I guess in your case classical cognitive dissonance.

Edited October 1, 2021 by ChaiyaTH

[cdemundo]

36 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Ok so to be more specific, a close friend as well his wife and kid, and they are still hospitalized, guess that is funny or something. But I guess in your case classical cognitive dissonance.

No your friend's experience is sad and unfortunate.

It is an anecdote that because of its personal proximity to you no doubt carries weight as an argument against the vax for you.

Presenting it as an argument or proof is not effective.

 

I have five siblings, we have among us 13 children, twenty grandchildren, and some great-grand children. ( I lost count).

All who are eligible by age have been vaccinated.

None have had serious reactions to the vaccine and none have had COVID.

 

Have I convinced you now?

No, of course not, because most personal experience is too narrow to carry weight.

 

Some people, for instance a doctor in a COVID ward who sees dozens of patient's a day might have significant personal experience, but most of us do not.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Impossible to equate the flu with covid. I can go about everyday life with the flu, but not so with covid.

 

Ya just don't get it, do you?

Thanks for the chuckle.

[niccodemi]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

These data are meaningless without more detail.

 

Please provide a breakdown of vaccinated and unvaccinated.

 

Emergency care visits vaccinated =?

Emergency care visits unvaccinated =?

 

overnight/admission vaccinated =?

overnight/admission unvaccinated =?

 

Deaths vaccinated=?

Deaths unvaccinated =?

 

Be clear so I can be clear in my response.

 

But before you do respond, read this from the source you are relying on:

“2 doses of the vaccine remain highly effective, with 60 to 85% effectiveness
against infection, 90 to 99% effectiveness against hospitalisation, 90 to 95% against mortality and 65 to 99% against symptomatic disease”

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1018547/Technical_Briefing_23_21_09_16.pdf

 

Delta cases - vaccinated with 2nd dose =  157,400

Delta cases - unvaccinated = 257,357

 

Emergency care visits vaccinated = 6,265 (3.98%)

Emergency care visits unvaccinated = 11,678 (4.53%)

 

overnight/admission vaccinated = 2,361  (1.5%)

overnight/admission unvaccinated = 3,080 (1.2%)

 

Deaths vaccinated= 1,613 (1%)

Deaths unvaccinated = 722 (0.3%) 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Ok so to be more specific, a close friend as well his wife and kid, and they are still hospitalized, guess that is funny or something. But I guess in your case classical cognitive dissonance.

You have said the husband was vaccinated, were the wife and child vaccinated?

[niccodemi]

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

One thing isn't noted in these statistics is the average age of each group. Also, those who were not senior citizens but judged to be more vulnerable.The UK's senior citizens and ohters more vulnerable were vaccinated first. So not only are they inherently more vulnerable, but the vaccines' effectiveness gets lower over time. 

Most COVID deaths in England now are in the vaccinated – here’s why that shouldn’t alarm you

"The risk of dying from COVID doubles roughly every seven years older a patient is. The 35-year difference between a 35-year-old and a 70-year-old means the risk of death between the two patients has doubled five times – equivalently it has increased by a factor of 32. An unvaccinated 70-year-old might be 32 times more likely to die of COVID than an unvaccinated 35-year-old. This dramatic variation of the risk profile with age means that even excellent vaccines don’t reduce the risk of death for older people to below the risk for some younger demographics."

https://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671

 

Fact Check-England’s COVID-19 death statistics do not suggest vaccines aren’t working

“It is important to understand the whole context to avoid misunderstanding data,” said Dr Shamaila Anwar, science communicator at Team Halo (teamhalo.org/).

Speaking to Reuters, she noted the importance of accounting for the demographics of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals, especially as Britain’s inoculation programme has prioritised those who are older or clinically vulnerable.

Anwar added that data currently shows the number of infections is “much less” in the vaccinated population, which indicates that “vaccination is working”.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-covid-england/fact-check-englands-covid-19-death-statistics-do-not-suggest-vaccines-arent-working-idUSL2N2OJ1ET

 

 

Agreed, average age of each group is not noted. However there is data for two age groups, below and above 50 years old individuals.

 

I was replying to following quote

Quote

What is so difficult to understand that the overwhelming majority those with life-threatening symptoms or deaths from Covid are among the unvaccinated?

This statement is simply incorrect (based on numbers from Technical briefing and your fact-check report).

[Jeffr2]

6 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Thanks for the chuckle.

Sad you think it's funny. It's not.

[placnx]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:04 PM, BritManToo said:

It would be interesting to relate this to the 12 fully vaccinated but infected staff at the Hua Hin restaurant.

Small number ........ I wonder how many staff there were, and what percentage were infected.

Let's hope 'small number' is not equal to everyone.

My friend's sister and her children were vaccinated with Sinovac, but her husband wasn't. He went to the eye doctor and caught Covid. After discharge from hospital, his Covid resurged. He went on ventilator and died, and the whole family got Covid in spite of having been vaccinated. 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, niccodemi said:

Delta cases - vaccinated with 2nd dose =  157,400

Delta cases - unvaccinated = 257,357

 

 

overnight/admission vaccinated = 2,361  (1.5%)

overnight/admission unvaccinated = 3,080 (1.2%)

 

Deaths vaccinated= 1,613 (1%)

Deaths unvaccinated = 722 (0.3%) 

So let's take a look at these numbers.

 

They come from the UK where adult 'full vaccination' is at 80% of the population. 

If the vaccines are having zero impact then the record of people suffering COVID will show no difference between vaccinated and un-vaccinated; for each data set you have posted the ratio vaccinated/unvaccinated will be 80/20.

 

Let's give it a try.

 

Delta cases - vaccinated with 2nd dose =  157,400

Delta cases - unvaccinated = 257,357

Total = 414,757

 

Vaccinated: 80% of 412,757 = 331,806 which is 174,406 more than actual. 

Unvaccinated: 20% of 414,757 = 82,951 which is 174,406 less than actual.

Vaccinations have reduced infections by 174,406.  A Stunning success for vaccination.

-------

 

 

Emergency care visits vaccinated = 6,265 (3.98%)

Emergency care visits unvaccinated = 11,678 (4.53%)

Total 17,943

 

Vaccinated: 80% of 17,943 = 14,354 which is 8,089 more than actual. 

Unvaccinated: 20% of 17,943 = 3,589 which is 8,089 less than actual.

Vaccinations have reduced emergency care visits by 8,089.  A Stunning success for vaccination.

------------

 

 

Vaccinations have reduced infections by 174,406.  A Stunning success for vaccination.

 

overnight/admission vaccinated = 2,361  (1.5%)

overnight/admission unvaccinated = 3,080 (1.2%)

Total 5,441

 

Vaccinated: 80% of 5,441 = 4,353 which is 1,992 more than actual. 

Unvaccinated: 20% of 5,441 = 1088 which is 1,992 less than actual.

Vaccinations have reduced hospital admissions by 1,992.  A Stunning success for vaccination.

----------

 

Deaths vaccinated= 1,613 (1%)

Deaths unvaccinated = 722 (0.3%) 

Total 2,335

 

Vaccinated: 80% of 2,335 = 1,868 which is 255 more than actual. 

Unvaccinated: 20% of 2,335 = 467 which is 255 less than actual.

Vaccinations have reduced hospital admissions by 467.  A Stunning success for vaccination.

-----------

 

I think it a good idea when reading these numbers to reflect on the fact that each individual datapoint represents a person, perhaps a parent, a child a spouse a partner a sibling. 

 

The vaccines have had a demonstrably dramatic positive impact on reducing illness, suffering and deaths, and that's putting aside the impact on reduced demand on health services and the associated costs therein.

 

Thanks for posting data so supportive of the case for vaccination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, niccodemi said:

I was replying to following quote

This statement is simply incorrect (based on numbers from Technical briefing and your fact-check report).

Again it depends on where you look. 

 

From the UK data you have provided, the raw number count is 3,974 people who have been fully vaccinated being hospitalised and/or dying of COVID v 3,802 unvaccinated people hospitalised or dying of COVID. 

So if you look at the UK and ignore the ratio of vaccinated v unvaccinated in the population then you are correct.

 

But you and I both know that's a nonsense argument (as demonstrated in the data you have provided and crunched for you in my immediately previous post - vaccines are preventing infections, emergency call outs, hospitalisations and deaths. 

 

When we look further afield the evidence mounts in favour of the statement. 

 

The US CDC states the unvaccinated are 5 times more likely to become infected, more than 10 times more likely to be hospitalised and more than ten times more likely to die from COVID.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm

 

 

So yes, go ahead an score a point on the semantics of a statement, but you are not going to dodge the truth in the data. 

 

Vaccines are significantly preventing infections, significantly preventing hospitalisation and significant; preventing deaths. 

 

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:47 PM, niccodemi said:

And the vaccinated individuals are not spreading the "foul" disease to others?

 

Hint

It helps to read to the end. From your linked report.

 

In the report, the measure researchers used to assess how much virus an infected person is carrying does not indicate whether they are actually transmitting the virus to other people, said Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the University of Saskatchewan.

[ozimoron]

COVID-19 patients 'begging' for vaccines before being put on life support, Melbourne nurses say

 

Michelle Spence, the ICU nurse unit manager at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, was visibly emotional as she detailed otherwise fit and healthy people deteriorating after contracting COVID-19.

"One of the saddest things I've seen over the last few weeks is people wanting the vaccination just before we put them on a life support machine," she said.

"That is the absolute truth. I've seen it myself. They're begging for the vaccination.

"They're very young. And once we get to that, we're about to put them on life support, it is really too late."

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/covid-patients-begging-for-vaccines-victorian-nurse-says/100510672

[pgrahmm]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

COVID-19 patients 'begging' for vaccines before being put on life support, Melbourne nurses say

 

Michelle Spence, the ICU nurse unit manager at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, was visibly emotional as she detailed otherwise fit and healthy people deteriorating after contracting COVID-19.

"One of the saddest things I've seen over the last few weeks is people wanting the vaccination just before we put them on a life support machine," she said.

"That is the absolute truth. I've seen it myself. They're begging for the vaccination.

"They're very young. And once we get to that, we're about to put them on life support, it is really too late."

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/covid-patients-begging-for-vaccines-victorian-nurse-says/100510672

Once they get ventilated, the reports I've seen puts them at a 20% survival chance....

 

Granted, it's a personal choice whichever approach you choose....As of now our family (one daughter & me communicating) have lost 3 friends (USA).... I'm sure if I checked in with my 3 cousins, other daughter, and one son the count would go up accordingly.... The people lost were 30s/40s & I'm sure they felt age was on their side....

One was a teacher that evidently contracted it from one of her primary school students.... Her family is wealthy, but $$$$ didn't/couldn't help....

[Tony125]

Dr. Nirav Shah answers questions about the vaccine

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dr-nirav-shah-answers-questions-223200744.html

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Tony125 said:

Dr. Nirav Shah answers questions about the vaccine

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dr-nirav-shah-answers-questions-223200744.html

Nutters. Plain and simple.

 

From that article.

 

Second, our personal choices have public consequences. The first three words of the Declaration of Independence — "We the people" — acknowledge that our democratic republic is a shared enterprise. As individuals in a society, we exercise our liberties within guardrails established to ensure a functioning society. Our choices affect others.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

“Got a friend who felt forced and got double vaxxed in Europe, returned just a month after Phuket sandbox and is now in a BKK hospital with covid. So much for the brilliant experimental vaccines.”

 

yeah apologies that the AZ or Pfizer is not infallible and that 99.99 % effective against death or serious symptoms is just not good enough, is it ? these vax ARE “ brilliant” …….and hardly by now 

“ experimental”  ……..the “friend” was unlucky to be that one in ten thousand unprotected case…..or unvaxxed. AZ is 100%.. Pfizer is 96%….. but the point is clear……jeez

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

terrible US single family covid deaths story above….. with so many covid deaths in one family the cause seems obvious……..obesity / diabetic pandemic in UK and USA is certainly taking its toll with the highest worldwide pro- rata covid deaths ….. 

[richard_smith237]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:47 AM, niccodemi said:

On 10/1/2021 at 9:12 PM, placeholder said:

One thing isn't noted in these statistics is the average age of each group. Also, those who were not senior citizens but judged to be more vulnerable.The UK's senior citizens and ohters more vulnerable were vaccinated first. So not only are they inherently more vulnerable, but the vaccines' effectiveness gets lower over time. 

Most COVID deaths in England now are in the vaccinated – here’s why that shouldn’t alarm you

"The risk of dying from COVID doubles roughly every seven years older a patient is. The 35-year difference between a 35-year-old and a 70-year-old means the risk of death between the two patients has doubled five times – equivalently it has increased by a factor of 32. An unvaccinated 70-year-old might be 32 times more likely to die of COVID than an unvaccinated 35-year-old. This dramatic variation of the risk profile with age means that even excellent vaccines don’t reduce the risk of death for older people to below the risk for some younger demographics."

https://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671

 

Fact Check-England’s COVID-19 death statistics do not suggest vaccines aren’t working

“It is important to understand the whole context to avoid misunderstanding data,” said Dr Shamaila Anwar, science communicator at Team Halo (teamhalo.org/).

Speaking to Reuters, she noted the importance of accounting for the demographics of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals, especially as Britain’s inoculation programme has prioritised those who are older or clinically vulnerable.

Anwar added that data currently shows the number of infections is “much less” in the vaccinated population, which indicates that “vaccination is working”.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-covid-england/fact-check-englands-covid-19-death-statistics-do-not-suggest-vaccines-arent-working-idUSL2N2OJ1ET

 

 

Expand  

Agreed, average age of each group is not noted. However there is data for two age groups, below and above 50 years old individuals.

 

I was replying to following quote

Quote

What is so difficult to understand that the overwhelming majority those with life-threatening symptoms or deaths from Covid are among the unvaccinated?

This statement is simply incorrect (based on numbers from Technical briefing and your fact-check report).

The ‘most covid deaths are of vaccinated’ reports are always highly misleading, often deliberately so, or take out of intelligent context. 

 

The vaccines are not infallible and do not offer 100% protection. 

IF 100% of the population is vaccinated, 100% of the cases will be in vaccinated people, 100% of the Covid-19 hospitalisations will be vaccinated people, 100% of deaths related to Covid-19 will be vaccinated people - None of this implies the vaccines are not working, it just implies the vaccines are not 100% effective. 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

fine statistical proof post Chomper…..

but reduces to the single stat that seals it : “97% hospital covid deaths in UK / USA are UNVAXXED patients “

[Jeffr2]

30 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

terrible US single family covid deaths story above….. with so many covid deaths in one family the cause seems obvious……..obesity / diabetic pandemic in UK and USA is certainly taking its toll with the highest worldwide pro- rata covid deaths ….. 

The state of Alabama for the first time in decades had negative population growth. Who would have guessed? Nutters.

[placeholder]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, niccodemi said:

UK technical briefing 23 (1 February 2021 to 12 September 2021)

Vaccinated (>14 days post 2nd dose)  Unvaccinated   

Delta Cases   157,400    257,357

Emergency care visits      6,265 (3.98%)   11,678 (4.53%)    

/w overnight inpatient admission    2,361  (1.5%)  3,080 (1.2%)      

Deaths (within 28 days)    1,613 (1%)     722 (0.3%)                                            

Overwhelming, really?

 

As has been pointed out repeatedly, and apparently to no avail, the elderly are far ore likely to succumb to covid than younger cohorts as are the immunocompromized. For every ten years the risk of dying from covid doubles. The fact that the vaccin

 

On 10/2/2021 at 7:47 AM, niccodemi said:

This statement is simply incorrect (based on numbers from Technical briefing and your fact-check report).

Yes, my statement was incorrect because at this point an overwhelming majority of aduts have been vaccinated.  But the more important figure is how how much more of a risk is run by those who are not vaccinated. And apparently it is to no avail that the evidence I cited from UK sources that coorected for age, the risk for contracting serious illness and the risk for dyinig is far greater for the unvaccinated is far greater than that for the vaccinated.

[cdemundo]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Nutters. Plain and simple.

 

From that article.

 

Second, our personal choices have public consequences. The first three words of the Declaration of Independence — "We the people" — acknowledge that our democratic republic is a shared enterprise. As individuals in a society, we exercise our liberties within guardrails established to ensure a functioning society. Our choices affect others.

Yes, the answers to the question "Why are you against the vaccine?" are simply recycling the same debunked answers seen before.

But past the Q&A with anti-vaxxers is some very good information about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines.

[cdemundo]

On 9/30/2021 at 8:11 PM, redwood1 said:

I think anyone what wants a vax should be forced against their will not to get one...

 

It would not bother me the least if this happened...

Another hypothetical, how many very certain, one might say cocksure, anti-vaxxers would voluntarily (voluntarily means you do it willingly, nobody forces you) forgo medical treatment?

If you are so confident about all the things you say about your natural immunity, the low rate of death from COVID, the horrible dangers of vaccination, would you be willing to say "Given all the reasons I have stated in the past, I will never go to the hospital for COVID for any reason?"

 

This is a rhetorical question, don't poop yourself that someone might deny you medical treatment.

Again, would you be willing to say "I will never go to the hospital for COVID for any reason?"

[placeholder]

35 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Another hypothetical, how many very certain, one might say cocksure, anti-vaxxers would voluntarily (voluntarily means you do it willingly, nobody forces you) forgo medical treatment?

If you are so confident about all the things you say about your natural immunity, the low rate of death from COVID, the horrible dangers of vaccination, would you be willing to say "Given all the reasons I have stated in the past, I will never go to the hospital for COVID for any reason?"

 

This is a rhetorical question, don't poop yourself that someone might deny you medical treatment.

Again, would you be willing to say "I will never go to the hospital for COVID for any reason?"

Whether he will avai himself of medical services is unimportant. In the USA, where vaccination rates in lag much of the developed world, most of the patients with serious symptoms including those who end up dying are clogging up the hospital ICU units. So the unvaccinated don't seem to be willing to die for their beliefs. And even if someone claims they forego medical treatment, that sort of declaration is only meaningful when actually put to the test.