Why should I inject a vaccine that could kill me when I have no risk to be sick with covid ? A Thai boy told me, what can I reply him to push for vaccination ?

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

 

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

You do understand the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting or transmitting the virus.

yes it does, it's more than 50% effective. stop trying to mislead people.

[robblok]

On 10/14/2021 at 9:16 PM, BritManToo said:

I'd like to know how those 12 vaccinated Thais at the Hua Hin restaurant caught their COVID.

Did they catch if from some 'super spreader'  not vaccinated?

Or did one of them catch it and infect everyone else?

Clearly the virus was easily transmitted in that case.

If the vaccine was highly effective in reducing transmission, why did so many of them catch it?

 

As far as I can see the evidence in this case, 12 fully vaccinated infected at one place of work, doesn't match the claims of reduced transmission.

 

I always thought you were so highly educated, but recently i have my doubt.

 

First of there are 2 mechanisms from vaccines. 

- prevent spread of covid by reducing change for infection and that protection slowly wears off and depends on what vaccine is used

- The protection you get from the vaccine against hospitalization (does not change) is like 30 times likely to develop serious effects.

 

Now lets say you have a 70% less reduction (the Thais could have had shinvax and then its a lot lower). But lets keep it at 70%

 

Even at 70% if you are constantly in a place with high covid occurrence like that restaurant. You will eventually get it. I mean if your locked in a room with covid your protection is going to lose out at some point. 

 

Protection works fine for incidental exposure but not continuous exposure over a longer period. 

 

So you might be vaccinated but if you live with a partner who has covid in the end you probably get it too because of repeated exposure to the virus.

 

BUT even if you get infected the 30 times likely to develop the serious side effects is a big bonus.

 

You as a high math kind of guy should have known this about how repeated exposure will eventually get you.

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, so many healthcare workers are not getting vaccinated.   FDA, WHO, and manufacturers are pushing the vaccination, not the medical society.  IF at risk, then maybe a good idea if applies to you.  But healthy under 60 or 65 yrs old, that's just silly.

A vast majority are getting vaccinated.  And just because your a "healthcare worker", doesn't mean you don't fall for the lies on social media.  Lower end workers don't require college degrees.

 

And yes, every credible medical professional is pushing the vaccine.  In the end, we're all at risk.  Especially if a new deadly variant crops up.  Our worst nightmare.

 

Get the jab.

[robblok]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, so many healthcare workers are not getting vaccinated.   FDA, WHO, and manufacturers are pushing the vaccination, not the medical society.  IF at risk, then maybe a good idea if applies to you.  But healthy under 60 or 65 yrs old, that's just silly.

Look your an American and in America there are a lot of crazies even among healthcare workers. In my country most healthcare workers are vaccinated besides a few idiots and religious people (some strict Christians).

 

Normal healthcare people all call for people to be vaccinated. In my country they even complain about the unvaccinated and are saying that they are frustrated by those unvaccinated who are hogging ICU beds that could have better been used by others.

 

The only one who is silly is you. Thankfully people like you will have to quarantine if they want to go to Thailand so their stupidity costs them money and time. 

[cdemundo]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, so many healthcare workers are not getting vaccinated.   FDA, WHO, and manufacturers are pushing the vaccination, not the medical society.  IF at risk, then maybe a good idea if applies to you.  But healthy under 60 or 65 yrs old, that's just silly.

" FDA, WHO, and manufacturers are pushing the vaccination, not the medical society. "

This is not true.

https://www.ama-assn.org/topics/coronavirus-vaccines

"Coronavirus Vaccines

The AMA is a strong advocate for the research, testing and distribution of vaccines to contain the spread of COVID-19."

 

"This comprehensive update from internal medicine specialist Sandra Fryhofer, MD, AMA trustee and the AMA liaison to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, includes:

A brief historical review.

COVID vaccines currently available and who should get them.

Expected vaccine side effects & more serious adverse.

Virus variants of concern.

Additional doses for immunocompromise and where we stand on boosters.

Equity: Vaccine access and addressing vaccine hesitancy.

Strategies for productive conversations about vaccination."

 

No debate going on in the AMA, only discussion of details and recommendations on particulars.

[cdemundo]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, so many healthcare workers are not getting vaccinated.   FDA, WHO, and manufacturers are pushing the vaccination, not the medical society.  IF at risk, then maybe a good idea if applies to you.  But healthy under 60 or 65 yrs old, that's just silly.

Healthcare workers includes everybody from nursing assistants who took a 90 day course to board certified specialist MDs.

 

Completely misleading to refer to "healthcare workers".

MDs are 99.99% in favor of vaccination.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, cdemundo said:

 

MDs are 99.99% in favor of vaccination.

 

 

Do you have something that supports this? 

[cdemundo]

49 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have something that supports this? 

Haha, let me change that so it isn't numerical, essentially all MDs support vaccinations.

I am willing to bet my next vaccination on it.

There are a few crackpot docs out there but it is essentially unanimous.

The antis are soooooo vocal, like here on this forum if you look at the questions about vax reactions for instance you can see that most are not anti vax.

Most who are not anti vax are not foolish like me to get into these silly arguments.

 

Ok, took one minute to look, first thing I found

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

"AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19"

 

OK now before you misinterpret what that says, 96% fully vaccinated.

Says nothing about the 4% who may be partially vaccinated or unvaccinated; does not say that 4% are against vaccination which you were probably getting ready to say. As far as the 96%, they are fully vaccinated enough said.

 

Now here is another breakdown for you, not all a$$holes are anti-vaxxers, but as far as I can tell all anti-vaxxers are a$$holes.

Not supported by anything but observation.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by cdemundo

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Haha, let me change that so it isn't numerical, essentially all MDs support vaccinations.

I am willing to bet my next vaccination on it.

There are a few crackpot docs out there but it is essentially unanimous.

The antis are soooooo vocal, like here on this forum if you look at the questions about vax reactions for instance you can see that most are not anti vax.

Most who are not anti vax are not foolish like me to get into these silly arguments.

Oh, you were making it up, that's what I thought, thanks. 

 

[cdemundo]

15 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Oh, you were making it up, that's what I thought, thanks. 

 

Sorry I edited it.

You are absolutely correct, I was pulling that number out of the air.

But I know it is greater than 96% from the quote I added, I am still gonna say that the number of anti-vax MDs is vanishingly small.

Edited October 23, 2021 by cdemundo
corrected % from 94 to 96% to agree with quote

[redwood1]

8 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I am still gonna say that the number of anti-vax MDs is vanishingly small.

Well for some reason Anti-vax MDs almost never get their opinions covered in the news....Maybe that's why their numbers seem small....

[cdemundo]

1 minute ago, redwood1 said:

Well for some reason Anti-vax MDs almost never get their opinions covered in the news....Maybe that's why their numbers seem small....

Well as I said less than 4% per the AMA survey.

[johng]

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

for some reason Anti-vax MDs almost never get their opinions covered in the news

Perhaps many do not raise doubts they might have about these latest vaccines  out of fear of being labelled  as  "Anti Vax a$$holes" and threaten with being struck off the medical register.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Well for some reason Anti-vax MDs almost never get their opinions covered in the news....Maybe that's why their numbers seem small....

We actually had one in the news (but that was before the vaccines were in use longer) she now accepted that she was wrong. 

 

Maybe they don't get their opinion covered because they are just not there. 

 

I heard that the US actually imported that Dr (from the UK) with that ridiculed research between vaccination and autism and he is pulling loads of people. The US also has a relative lower vaccination level. I think its safe to say that there are more antivax loonies in the US (on average) then in other countries. I see on this forum too. 

 

I did some research about Dr's in the Netherlands who were against vaccination. The number was really low and of those around 10 !!! of all DR's in the Netherlands are currently being threatened to be removed from the register for doctors. That is a really really small amount. of antivaxxer Dr's. Plus of course once they are removed it will be even less. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, cdemundo said:

Sorry I edited it.

You are absolutely correct, I was pulling that number out of the air.

But I know it is greater than 96% from the quote I added, I am still gonna say that the number of anti-vax MDs is vanishingly small.

Do you have something that supports the 96%? 

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have something that supports this? 

Show us proof that it's wrong. Ignoring the fake news doctors, ALL credible docs support the jab.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, johng said:

Perhaps many do not raise doubts they might have about these latest vaccines  out of fear of being labelled  as  "Anti Vax a$$holes" and threaten with being struck off the medical register.

Makes sense because they'd be going against the science.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

Well for some reason Anti-vax MDs almost never get their opinions covered in the news....Maybe that's why their numbers seem small....

They never get covered because they are spreading misinformation.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

They never get covered because they are spreading misinformation.

You right-wingers crack me up. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Show us proof that it's wrong. Ignoring the fake news doctors, ALL credible docs support the jab.

That's what I thought. You make something up, and then it's up to people that call you on it to prove it's wrong. 

 

He already lied and said it was 99.99% earlier and retracted that. 

 

What does "...support the jab..." mean anyway? Depending on how you define it, it could be over 99% or under 1%. 

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You right-wingers crack me up. 

You covid deniers and anti vaxxers....well...can't say here. But disgust is close.

 

P.s. I'm far from being right wing. And far from being a liberal. Middle of the road ALL the way.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Jeffr2

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

That's what I thought. You make something up, and then it's up to people that call you on it to prove it's wrong. 

 

He already lied and said it was 99.99% earlier and retracted that. 

 

What does "...support the jab..." mean anyway? Depending on how you define it, it could be over 99% or under 1%. 

Link...

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

That's what I thought. You make something up, and then it's up to people that call you on it to prove it's wrong. 

 

He already lied and said it was 99.99% earlier and retracted that. 

 

What does "...support the jab..." mean anyway? Depending on how you define it, it could be over 99% or under 1%. 

I suspect it's a lot closer to 99 than 1.

 

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have something that supports the 96%? 

Yeah

 

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

[codemonkey]

10 hours ago, ozimoron said:

yes it does, it's more than 50% effective. stop trying to mislead people.

The covid vaccine may prevent transmission and death, but just not very well as we see in the numbers now. Do keep in mind though that after everyone is vaccinated all new covid infections and deaths will be in vaccinated and there will be no more bias.

[ozimoron]

Just now, codemonkey said:

The covid vaccine may prevent transmission and death, but just not very well as we see in the numbers now.

What numbers? Why don't the anti vaxxers ever link to their so called evidence?

 

[Scott]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have something that supports the 96%? 

I suspect he is not far off the mark.  

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

 

I spoke at length to my Physician's Assistant, who is not vaccinated.  I have a background in science, so it was nice to get her honest, unfiltered thoughts on the vaccine.   She had a mild, confirmed case of Covid, and has antibodies and will continue to have her blood checked for antibodies.  It's now 9 months and her antibody levels are still high.  

At any rate, her remark was that she is personally hesitant for herself but she made it very clear to me that I definitely should be vaccinated.   She had Covid before she was even eligible for vaccines and said that although she prefers to 'wait and see' for herself, she advises nearly everyone to get vaccinated.  The exceptions are people who have certain allergies or who have had adverse reactions to vaccines.  

[Scott]

I am not sure what the fascination is with breakthrough cases is.  They are still rather rare.  I saw something on television that cited 7,000+ documented cases in the US but I can't cite a source.  

Here's what we know.  The vaccines are highly effective, but less effective with the Delta variant.   The first groups to be vaccinated were older people and those at high risk of complications.  That group would also be at higher risk for breakthrough cases.  High risk groups are also more likely to get hospitalized and to die from a breakthrough case.  (Colin Powell is a good example).

Later groups who were vaccinated would still be maintaining higher antibody levels and included fewer high risk individuals.   Breakthrough cases in these groups have been less.  The problem with tracking many of these is that very mild or asymptomatic cases may not have received any medical attention.  

 

The places with the highest breakthrough cases are also the places with the lowest vaccination rates and the highest number of covid cases.   Two states, for example, are Alaska and Arkansas.  Arkansas has the highest percent of breakthrough cases at .54%.  It is also one of the states with the highest number of overall cases.  

[cdemundo]

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have something that supports the 96%? 

See this is why no-one respects you.

Look at what I posted.

I posted to indicate that I edited one of my posts.

[cdemundo]

16 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, so many healthcare workers are not getting vaccinated.   FDA, WHO, and manufacturers are pushing the vaccination, not the medical society.  IF at risk, then maybe a good idea if applies to you.  But healthy under 60 or 65 yrs old, that's just silly.

When we read or speak about healthcare workers we are talking about a diverse group of workers.

The following is just something to think about, for those of you who do that.

 

Over 96% of MDs are fully vaccinated. 

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

"AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19"

 

Because of my observations on how these discussions go I want to emphasize that the 96% figure indicates only that fewer than 4% of MDs are either partially vaccinated or unvaccinated. If you want to conclude something else from that you are probably wrong.

 

Often we read statements about "healthcare workers".

That group includes all workers without observing the differences between healthcare occupations education and training.

 

https://www.fsmb.org/siteassets/advocacy/publications/2018census.pdf

 

"There are 985,026 physicians with Doctor of Medicine (MD) and Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) degrees licensed to practice medicine in the United States and the District of Columbia, according to physician census data compiled by the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB)."

 

MDs/DOs require a college education, medical school and residency at a minimum.

https://www.princetonreview.com/med-school-advice/what-to-expect-in-medical-school

"How long is medical school?

Medical school takes 4 years to complete, but to become a doctor you'll also spend 3–7 years in residency."

So an MD has college 4 years, med school 4 years, residency 3- 7 years.

So 11 to 15 years of post high school education.

Also, keep in mind that medical school admissions are competitive.

What that means is that most college grads could not even get their application cover letter read to completion if they tried to apply to med school. (Not picking on anybody, that includes me.)

 

OK so 96% of  MDs who have 11 to 15 years of post-secondary education are fully vaccinated.

Are we together on that? Don't want to leave anyone behind.

Also 985,026 MDs in that group "healthcare workers".

 

One entry-level job in healthcare is a nursing assistant.

 

https://www.zippia.com/certified-nursing-assistant-jobs/demographics/

There are 1,942,258 certified nursing assistants in the US.

More than twice the number of MDs/ODs.

 

So when you read about healthcare workers as an undifferentiated group you may be including 985,026 MDs with 1,942,258 certified nursing assistants.

 

https://www.zippia.com/certified-nursing-assistant-jobs/demographics/

"TYPES OF CERTIFIED NURSING ASSISTANT DEGREE LEVELS

The most common degree for certified nursing assistants is

high school diploma 29% of certified nursing assistants earn that degree.

A close second is associate degree with 19% and

rounding it off is bachelor's degree with 16%."

 

So the levels of education in the category "health care workers" varies widely.

And the most highly educated group is one of the the smallest numerically.

And the most highly educated group of healthcare workers is 96% fully vaccinated.

 

So when you read or hear that a number of healthcare workers fully vaccinated is less than 96% then those numbers are weighted by the fact that there are more less highly educated health care workers than there are MDs/DOs.

 

Again, just something to think about if you do that. Think I mean.