U.S. Topic -- What does it mean to be an American abroad in a time of a historically severe civil war like crisis back home?

[Jingthing]

Many of us that have been paying attention have noted that that the situation in recent years in the U.S. is akin to a civil war. Our home country basically self destructing with no solution in clear sight.

 

Careful AVOIDING political debate (as most of the American expats here fall in one or the other side of this great DIVIDE), the question I'm posing here is, what are the implications of being an American abroad during such historically significant dark times for our home nation?

 

What was it like for Americans abroad during the Civil War, during the Great Depression, during World War 2, and NOW, whatever this historically significant crisis is eventually going to be called? Of course during World War 2 it generally meant you were a soldier.  

 

Recently two major U.S. intellectuals have made this point very explicitly. The best documentarian in American history Ken Burns and one of the greatest journalists in American history Carl Bernstein. 

 

Ken Burns, Will Arnett, Bateman, Sean Hayes Talk US History (mediaite.com)

 

 

Ken Burns Says Current Times ‘Equal’ to Civil War, Depression and World War II: ‘It’s Really Serious’

 

Burns referencing Abraham Lincoln:

 

Quote

From whence shall we expect the approach of danger? Shall some trans-Atlantic military giant step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never. All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa could not by force take a drink from the Ohio River or make a track on the Blue Ridge in the trial of a thousand years. No, if destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we will live forever or die by suicide.

 

Carl Bernstein: US is in a cultural civil war - YouTube

 

Quote

We are in a civil war in this country. We are in a cultural civil war such as we've never seen since 1860 to 1865 and that the radicalism of the republican party today is almost comparable to a secessionist movement in this country ... 

Please note well! In responding to this topic kindly focus on our situation as Americans abroad in this era of historic crisis as opposed to the usual divisive political debate which you can find at many thousands of other venues 24/7.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jingthing

[gk10012001]

I am not aware that America is self destructing.. yet.  Changes are afoot for sure.  Previous minority groups are now a very large portion of the population and they are electing persons to office and setting policies that some don't like.  Welcome to the election process.

 

  The courrupt politicians have not changed much and probably never will.  The national or local election issues are strange, that's for sure.  Sad we can not do a solid verifiable online voting instead of all the machinations, polls closeing, gerrymandering, etc.  

 

  Race issues are not new and I doubt it will be going away.  Immigration... is a tough one.   most countries have strict immigration policies and if thousands showed up at their borders it would be considered an invasion. 

 

  I was a young teen during the Vietnam mess.  But amazingly not that much was actually taught in school to us at the time. So my real time memories are jaded with what I later learned. 

 

 

The recent divide is COVID and Biden and others literally trying to criminalize people that do not have vaccinations. And now mandating under penalty of termination to get vaccinated for millions of Americans.  But at the same time, exempting groups such as the US Postal Workers.  Lawsuits are hitting the courts and time will tell.

 

  I have friends starting contract work at Electric Boat.  Only 50% of their current workforce is vaccinated.  Biden and the advisory committee seem to be saying all workers and sub tier contractors must be vaxed by Jan 2.   Good, bad or indifferent, these mandates are causing a lot of strife between workers, agencies, families, etc.  I find it irrational that vaccinated people are so worried about unvaccinated people.  Are they doubting their own vaccines?  When they go shopping, they have no idea who at the market or the mall has been vaccinated so forcing it on co workers seems ineffective.

 

  I made some calls and could not find any JJ vaccinations available all up and down Florida from Orlando, to Daytona to Melbourne, to Palm Beach.  All the pressure is to get Pfizer or Moderna, and I checked dozens of websites for availability and not one that said they had JJ actually had it when I called several CVS, Wallgreens, Publix, and a few private pharmacies.  Sounds like a money and market grab and maybe time to look at PFizer's books.  Remember a few years back when Congress took the Oil companies to court to collect windfall profits?  Is Pfizer making piles of money off of this?  Due to the nature of the issue, I bet nobody will question Pfizer.

 

  Electing a very old person to President may be becoming too frequent.  Senility and dimished capacity is a big issue.  

[Jingthing]

The first reply out of the gate ignoring the needed guidance that we cannot have a political debate here.

 

Not surprised but I did try.

 

Sigh.

[Airalee]

What does it mean?

 

It means that if you care so much about it, you should probably go home so that you can join whichever protest/march/demonstration that fits your fancy…whatever side of the aisle you sit on…instead of thinking you make a difference from half a world away.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Airalee

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Airalee said:

What does it mean?

 

It means that if you care so much about, it that you should probably go home so that you can join whichever protest/march/demonstration that fits your fancy…whatever side of the aisle you sit on…instead of thinking you make a difference from half a world away.

I'm not suggesting that Americans abroad make a difference. We're outside looking in. It's a weird situation.

 

[Airalee]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not suggesting that Americans abroad make a difference. We're outside looking in. It's a weird situation.

 

I try not to even look in.  I moved here to get away from it all.  But I see so many people here that get their blood pressure up, for things they can’t control back in their respective countries, that it really defeats the purpose of moving to Thailand in the first place.

[bojo]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The first reply out of the gate ignoring the needed guidance that we cannot have a political debate here.

 

Not surprised but I did try.

 

Sigh.

Sure, but it's a tough remit and quite niche, not least in that it appears to be aimed at Americans.............................

 

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

the question I'm posing here is, what are the implications of being an American abroad during such historically significant dark times for our home nation?

From outsiders there will be very little reaction/implications IMO, but from fellow Americans in Thailand, I would imagine that any potential friction between divided fellow citizen's opinions would be diluted due to promimity to home and 'Living in the Land of Smiles' attitude and lifestyle, makes most things far less conflicting.............................

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I try not to even look in.  I moved here to get away from it all.  But I see so many people here that get their blood pressure up, for things they can’t control back in their respective countries, that it really defeats the purpose of moving to Thailand in the first place.

That's a very valid point but things can get to a point where it can't be ignored. For example if you were a Soviet abroad when their Union broke up.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I will add something else here.

If you don’t agree with Ken Burns about the historical significance of this incredibly divided era in American history and that it is indeed akin to a civil war you're certainly entitled to that opinion but the PREMISE of this topic is really targeted to the people that DO see it that way.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jingthing

[Airalee]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's a very valid point but things can get to a point where it can't be ignored. For example if you were a Soviet abroad when.their Union broke up.

I’m sure that if we were to look back at history, people have always thought that things were about to fall apart.  “The end is nigh” type of thinking.  Sure, I’m not completely free of stress, and I understand where you’re coming from, but I always try to remind myself of the quote by Mark Twain…

 

“I've had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened.”

[Airalee]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I will add something else here.

If you don’t agree with Ken Burns about the historical significance of this era in American history and that it is indeed akin to a civil war you're certainly entitled to that opinion but the PREMISE of this topic is really targeted to the people that DO see it that way.

It would behoove those people to turn off their TV, stop reading the news, and just get outside and go for a walk in nature.  Maybe find a nice Mexican restaurant.  Focus on the simple things in life that make you happy instead of all the infighting back home.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I’m sure that if we were to look back at history, people have always thought that things were about to fall apart.  “The end is nigh” type of thinking.  Sure, I’m not completely free of stress, and I understand where you’re coming from, but I always try to remind myself of the quote by Mark Twain…

 

“I've had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened.”

I wasn't suggesting that the U.S. is likely to split up geographically as a result of this era although that isn't impossible. 

In any case we've already got great quotes from Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain on this topic. Not too shabby.

 

[Jingthing]

50 minutes ago, bojo said:

...

 

From outsiders there will be very little reaction/implications IMO, but from fellow Americans in Thailand, I would imagine that any potential friction between divided fellow citizen's opinions would be diluted due to promimity to home and 'Living in the Land of Smiles' attitude and lifestyle, makes most things far less conflicting.............................

That's interesting.

I'm not sure you're correct about that but it's certainly fit to the topic.

Are Americans abroad less likely to be as severely divided amongst themselves as Americans back home?

Talking IRL, online definitely just as divided. 

Perhaps you're right.

However in my experience there is an awful lot of self segregation of sides going on here as well. 

I've noticed a certain feeling out process when two American strangers meet here. Not getting explicitly into it at first but dropping code words and phrases. Sometimes I've noticed other Americans misread the code and that can get weird.

I've even put out ambiguous code just to be a little naughty to see how it goes down. 

I had a strange experience at the U.S. embassy awhile back. 
There was something very dramatic historically divisive showing on the t.v. in the waiting room at the time. I noticed the Americans there watching it closely but they all seemed to be careful not to give away their side of the divide in that particular setting and definitely not in the mood to get into a political argument with strangers there. Of course an embassy is a very special and unusual setting.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jingthing

[bojo]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

However in my experience there is an awful lot of self segregation of sides going on here as well.

Most, who follow international news are acutely aware of that and just in comparison, but from different sides of the Atlantic..the UK has never been sooooh divided IMO since Brexit and it still lingers/brews as one can even see on this forum at times.......................Personally I blame it on the media and perhaps that's what I'm getting at when one is removed from one's home country.....................................................You can be and most I believe are, far removed from what is going on back home and IMO, with all the divison, that's gotta be a good thing................................

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, bojo said:

Most, who follow international news are acutely aware of that and just in comparison, but from different sides of the Atlantic..the UK has never been sooooh divided IMO since Brexit and it still lingers/brews as one can even see on this forum at times.......................Personally I blame it on the media and perhaps that's what I'm getting at when one is removed from one's home country.....................................................You can be and most I believe are, far removed from what is going on back home and IMO, with all the divison, that's gotta be a good thing................................

It's not just usual news sources. Probably for the majority of people these days social media, youtube, FB, etc. is much more important. This divide is way beyond traditional politics, it's cultural. We have our own feeds based on tailored algorithms. I think this remove by living abroad that you're talking about is less common than you think. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jingthing

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, Airalee said:

I try not to even look in.  I moved here to get away from it all.  But I see so many people here that get their blood pressure up, for things they can’t control back in their respective countries, that it really defeats the purpose of moving to Thailand in the first place.

Same here.

I don't even . look at the news on CNN, 

I scan the headlines on Google news. skip the political stuff, and If I see an interesting headline , I google it to see what other publications have to say about it. You can not any longer get a straight story from a single source, .They all seem to have their bias and agenda, 

For the most part  the headlines are enough, If the news where that there was an 5.6 earthquake some place, that's enough for me , I don't need to know all the gory details. I know that this not caring is beginning to boarder on the sociopathy, but after  65 years of the same cra*p I no longer give a Sh#*t.

Edited October 1, 2021 by sirineou

[jerrymahoney]

State of affairs in US can largely IMHO be represented by this map from NY Times:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/us/us-covid-deaths-700k.html

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by jerrymahoney

[sqwakvfr]

"Recently two major U.S. intellectuals have made this point very explicitly. The best documentarian in American history Ken Burns and one of the greatest journalists in American history Carl Bernstein. "

 

Bernstein, an intellectual and "one of the greatest journalist in American history"??? Ken Burns, because of his past work to me is an intellectual but Carl Bernstein?  Also, a podcast hosted by a comedian and two has been actors?  

 

Also, America is a nation that at times is barely united.  Americans have always been divided and in perpetual conflict amongst itself.  Peace, Harmony and Diversity are usually in conflict.  If you want to know the pulse of any American community just the street cops, firefighters, and anyone else works in public service.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by sqwakvfr

[cmarshall]

What I expect to happen is that in the next twenty years, the US splits into two or more independent countries.  I think this outcome is inevitable, because of demographic changes and the substantial and irremediable defects of the US Constitution.  Within twenty years fifty percent of the voters will be located in eight states, because of migration from rural areas into the cities.  However, the dwindling rural population will at that time have even greater control over national elections, because of how the electors are allocated in the Electoral College and because it will continue to be impossible to amend the Constitution.  Without the abolition of the Electoral College, the president who wins the popular vote won't ever win.  That's already been a severe problem for decades, but it will become so exacerbated by the demographic shift that the popular vote will become a mere footnote to the decisions by the ever less democratic Electoral College.  

 

In this scenario it could well be the blue states that secede this time.  They will find it intolerable that the right wing continues to choose the president who stuffs the Court as minority rule becomes cemented in place while reform remains impossible.  Since I don't think anyone will be able to stomach an actual shooting civil war this time, the secession will be unopposed.  

 

What does that mean for us expats?  Well, Social Security payments are unlikely to continue uninterrupted.  And you can't go home again, but some of us have already suspected that long since.

Edited October 1, 2021 by cmarshall

[cmarshall]

56 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

"Recently two major U.S. intellectuals have made this point very explicitly. The best documentarian in American history Ken Burns and one of the greatest journalists in American history Carl Bernstein. "

 

Bernstein, an intellectual and "one of the greatest journalist in American history"??? Ken Burns, because of his past work to me is an intellectual but Carl Bernstein?  Also, a podcast hosted by a comedian and two has been actors?  

 

Also, America is a nation that at times is barely united.  Americans have always been divided and in perpetual conflict amongst itself.  Peace, Harmony and Diversity are usually in conflict.  If you want to know the pulse of any American community just the street cops, firefighters, and anyone else works in public service.  

Ken Burns is in the entertainment business.  I wrote him off as a serious person when, in his highly entertaining Civil War documentary series, he covered the Emancipation Proclamation without ever mentioning that it excluded from emancipation the states and the counties that supported the Union.  He might also have mentioned that when Gen. John C. Fremont emancipated the slaves of Missouri in 1862, Lincoln promptly re-enslaved them.  

 

Americans wouldn't know an intellectual if they tripped over one.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

12 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

because of migration from rural areas into the cities. 

Quite the opposite, people have been fleeing the high rents of the coastal states for the Midwest. Out there more businesses and factories have been built because of the tax breaks. They're also the ones pledging to take the most refugees, such as from Afghanistan. A lot of promising growth to be seen in these areas. They'll need someone to teach them ESL, so I'll be in a great position heh. My mom was lucky to have got her place out there 6 years ago, it's about tripled in value since. That's where my Thai wife and I will be headed back to in a few more years.

[sqwakvfr]

“Americans wouldn't know an intellectual if they tripped over one.”

 

Ken Burns is an intellectual who like most people have a political filter. Like  most he picks and chooses what suits the project he works on.  Bernstein is a whole different animal.  He is political all the time.  

[meechai]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Many of us that have been paying attention have noted that that the situation in recent years in the U.S. is akin to a civil war. Our home country basically self destructing with no solution in clear sight.

 

Careful AVOIDING political debate

First off when is the last time you were actually in the USA? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades??

 

Because if by "paying attention" you mean soaking up the rhetoric that MSM has become then yes you may have the sensationalized view you seem to have

 

But the truth is there is no such thing here in the US amongst people. Believe it or not we get along fine,,,Black & White...Gay & Straight...Liberals & Conservatives..For the most part..

We are still the melting pot of equal opportunities in this world & do just fine thanks...Do we sometimes have differences...DUH? At least we are allowed to unlike some dictatorships

 

For someone like yourself to start a topic like this .....Well  it is akin to someone who never ate at a restaurant for decades then bad mouth it because

"you heard" this or that yet have no REAL factual experience with the food

 

Last but not least to start a discriminating post against a whole country & then out of the other side of your mouth say

"Careful AVOIDING political debate"

Is really the cherry on top of this  cake because how could any country arrive at this fantasy civil war you claim if not by political problems

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by meechai

[tonray]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

What was it like for Americans abroad during the Civil War, during the Great Depression

I'd bet there are still a few old codgers around who could tell you !

[seedy]

As a citizen of the 51st state, I grew up watching the going on south of the 49th parallel.

When observing political goings-on I have often been reminded of Don Quixote.

Psychiatrist: It is easier not to take responsibility for one’s actions. This can be the result of uncertainty about the direction in which one’s life is heading.

Quixote: So I am not alone?

Psychiatrist: No, many men in this society undergo the same traumatic feelings as you have. Most, however, are not as freely able to express their feelings and act upon their wishes. Men reach the point where they wonder about the meaning in life. It becomes very important to have successfully accomplished something of importance. Thus, you tried to go out and live your fantasies.

https://prizedwriting.ucdavis.edu/psychological-assessment-don-quixote

[EVENKEEL]

Civil War? People disagree is all. How can I have an opinion if politics aren't allowed to be discussed. But, you know that don't you OP. 

[Jingthing]

Members are not allowed to open political debate discussions. 

That is why I insisted that people not debate US politics here.

However I totally agree with Ken Burns about the grave seriousness of this era in American history. 

This is an expat forum.

I think its interesting to consider the situation of Americans abroad in this historically severely divided era.

For those that can't grasp the necessary limitations of this topic I am sorry but you are not required to read or post to it.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Jingthing

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

What I expect to happen is that in the next twenty years, the US splits into two or more independent countries.  I think this outcome is inevitable, because of demographic changes and the substantial and irremediable defects of the US Constitution.  Within twenty years fifty percent of the voters will be located in eight states, because of migration from rural areas into the cities.  However, the dwindling rural population will at that time have even greater control over national elections, because of how the electors are allocated in the Electoral College and because it will continue to be impossible to amend the Constitution.  Without the abolition of the Electoral College, the president who wins the popular vote won't ever win.  That's already been a severe problem for decades, but it will become so exacerbated by the demographic shift that the popular vote will become a mere footnote to the decisions by the ever less democratic Electoral College.  

 

In this scenario it could well be the blue states that secede this time.  They will find it intolerable that the right wing continues to choose the president who stuffs the Court as minority rule becomes cemented in place while reform remains impossible.  Since I don't think anyone will be able to stomach an actual shooting civil war this time, the secession will be unopposed.  

 

What does that mean for us expats?  Well, Social Security payments are unlikely to continue uninterrupted.  And you can't go home again, but some of us have already suspected that long since.

Worse than the Electoral College, which does reapportion electors based upon population shifts (matching the number of each state's representatives in

congress), is the Senate in which each state has two senators regardless of population.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Etaoin Shrdlu

[cmarshall]

30 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Worse than the Electoral College, which does reapportion electors based upon population shifts (matching the number of each state's representatives in

congress), is the Senate in which each state has two senators regardless of population.

The Electoral College was designed to transfer the excessive allocation of power to the slave states in the Congress to the election of the president.  Overrepresentation of the slave states in the Congress was achieved by both the equal representation of large and small states in the Senate and the Three Fifths Compromise in the House.  It worked wonderfully well.  All of the presidents until Lincoln were slave owners, excepting only the two Adamses from Massachusetts.

 

Minority was designed into the Constitution from the start, as Madison explained, because if the South did not get excessive, undemocratic control of the government, they would simply not have joined the Union.

[bojo]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I've noticed a certain feeling out process when two American strangers meet here. Not getting explicitly into it at first but dropping code words and phrases.

When two tribes meet, there's often gonna be different signals flying about

 

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There was something very dramatic historically divisive showing on the t.v. in the waiting room at the time. I noticed the Americans there watching it closely but they all seemed to be careful not to give away their side of the divide in that particular setting and definitely not in the mood to get into a political argument with strangers there. Of course an embassy is a very special and unusual setting.

Yes unusual setting etc, true..................but IMO, I don't think folks abroad really wanna get into the political divide and are probably relieved to 'not give away their side'........................................I think that your interpretation of others' body language suits your theory only but not necessarily the general consensus of most American's abroad. After all, they've escaped the madding crowd to a more tranquil place, why would they want to get back into the fire.......................