Pattaya retirees feel “trapped” in Thailand because of insurance

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

The main reason is financial, and not because I can't afford it.  

 

I remember some time ago I posted a more detail analysis, but I will give brief details in this post.

 

My 800k baht equivalent is in a fund in my home country earning around 6% per annum.  It's not an aggressive fund. 

 

800k x 6% = 48,000 baht a year. 

 

It's liquid, and in a country where I hold citizenship and have rights, has a developed financial system and judicial system.

 

At the time of this post, Kasikorn Bank is offering 0.40% interest on deposits under 10 million baht for a 12 month fixed deposit.

 

800k x 0.40% = 3200 baht per year.

 

The money is locked in for 12 months, and whilst some leave the 800k in a regular savings or transaction account, using it and going under the 800k, many leave the 800k in the Thai bank, untouched, perpetually.

 

I pay 20,000 baht to the agent.  He does the lot.  Nothing for me to do.  

 

Many argue that their extension only costs 1,900 baht, but to me, their extension costs 42,900 baht.

 

48,000 - 1,900 - 3,200 = 42,900 baht.  

 

This makes a Thai visa / extension expensive, not for the cost to immigration at 1,900 baht, but for the criteria / hoops you have to meet to be able to pay the 1,900 baht.  Eg. leaving 800k baht in a Thai bank.  

 

Having the 800k in a Thai bank exposes you to more risk in the Thai banking system.  Eg. a run on the banks.   Also, some issues getting the lump some money out of the country can arise.   Maybe Bangkok might order "a haircut" on accounts.  Who knows, but if such things happen here, what can foreigners do, sign a petition?  ????  

 

I chose not to give a Thai bank a cheap loan of 800k, just so I can "do it myself" every year, thinking I am only paying 1,900 baht to immigration.  ????   

Basically its financial, as you want to have the extra money, so you cheat and go to an agent. That is fine but don't moan if it comes back to you at some time. If not great well done id say. If not be a man and then don't moan. (not saying you would).

 

 

[GrandPapillon]

8 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

 

I chose not to give a Thai bank a cheap loan of 800k, just so I can "do it myself" every year, thinking I am only paying 1,900 baht to immigration.  ????   

good move actually, if you can 6% in interests, but in most countries, it is impossible

 

is that fund in Australia?

[scubascuba3]

Funny how so many BMs claim to make 6%-10% pa, most people know it's up and down and you have winners and losers and past performance is no guarantee of the future.

 

My returns have been good also but the future is unknown

[jacko45k]

17 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Why didn't they make it compulsory for the O when they brought it in for the OA?

The 'O' is not a long stay visa perhaps.

[Leaver]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Refunding the 800k has no real impact, cancelling an insurance policy which is meant to be for a year has an impact, there would be numerous stories of falang not being able to claim on the insurance because basically it's fake \ just for the initial application and can't pay for their healthcare. I can't see it happening.

 

Why didn't they make it compulsory for the O when they brought it in for the OA?

 

What about the 800k that farang are supposed to be living on here that doesn't not exist?  

 

It's the same.  If you don't have money, you go hungry or go home to benefits.  If you you can't afford medical, or are uninsured, you go home for free medical, or remain sick, or die.  

 

Do you think anyone cares about farang using a dodgy 800k and / or insurance documents?  It will not be a secret, and everyone will know what's going on.  The farang will technically be insured at the time of visa extension application.  Just in the same way he technically had 800k.  

 

Let's say a farang actually did get a proper insurance policy.  Nothing dodgy.  All forms filled out, payment made, policy issued.  What's stopping him from cancelling the policy a day after getting the extension, to save some money, or, because he couldn't afford it in the first place?  Sure, may lose a month's premium etc, but has he broken any law? 

 

It's one think to demand insurance for an annual extension,  it's another thing to monitor the farang maintains the insurance policy.  Are they going to have 30 day reporting?

 

This is why the guys in Bangkok, all the way down to the agents on the ground, will have "baht signs" in their eyes on this one.    Those that have insurance now will continue to maintain it, but those that don't, or can't afford it, or don't qualify for it- CHA-CHING.  ????  

 

And, should it also clear out some elderly and unwell farang, they will also see that as a good result.  

 

It's not going to be about actually ensuring people are insured.  It's simply going to be a corrupt money making law / policy, just like the 800k.  

 

It's only a matter of time.  

[scubascuba3]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

The 'O' is not a long stay visa perhaps.

They could have brought it in for O retirement extensions if they wanted, they knew it would cause lots of problems bringing it in so didn't

[Leaver]

23 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Agree! Another reason would be the Government knows that retirees would lie to obtain insurance. Health insurance companies wouldn't pay out in the event of a claim and hospitals would still be left with unpaid bills.

 

Once again, it has nothing to do with actual insurance and the medical system.  If you can't pay for treatment, you go home for free medical, remain sick, or die.  Same as now.  

 

It will simply be a corrupt earner, just like the 800k backdoor, but this insurance "hoop" will net huge revenue.  

 

Why wouldn't they bring it in?   TiT.  

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Leaver

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

They could have brought it in for O retirement extensions if they wanted, they knew it would cause lots of problems bringing it in so didn't

I recall it made quite a disturbance when it became apparent the insurance requirement also applied to O-A retirement extensions. 

[Leaver]

18 minutes ago, robblok said:

Basically its financial, as you want to have the extra money, so you cheat and go to an agent. That is fine but don't moan if it comes back to you at some time. If not great well done id say. If not be a man and then don't moan. (not saying you would).

 

 

 

I don't want that extra money, or need that extra money. 

 

What I do want is the security knowing my money is not in a 3rd World Country's banking system, and that feeling of contentment knowing you are not being screwed by a 3rd World Country's government.  

 

No complains from me should they ever seriously enforce the use of agents here. I have my Plan B to Thailand well and truly in place.   I forgot to mention I am bringing in over 65k baht a month, so have that option, should they stop the use of agents.  

 

I don't criticize anyone for doing the 800k / 1,900 baht method, each to their own, but I have put forward my reasons for using an agent.

 

Not everyone who uses an agent is broke.   

 

 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

I don't want that extra money, or need that extra money. 

 

What I do want is the security knowing my money is not in a 3rd World Country's banking system, and that feeling of contentment knowing you are not being screwed by a 3rd World Country's government.  

 

No complains from me should they ever seriously enforce the use of agents here. I have my Plan B to Thailand well and truly in place.   I forgot to mention I am bringing in over 65k baht a month, so have that option, should they stop the use of agents.  

 

I don't criticize anyone for doing the 800k / 1,900 baht method, each to their own, but I have put forward my reasons for using an agent.

 

Not everyone who uses an agent is broke.   

 

 

I would agree with you however you want the extra money as your excuses are strange. Because there is a 1 million bt government guarantee for bank accounts. So your remark about losing the money is not valid. 

 

Anyway at least you accept that it could give problems and are ok with that. That is for me the most important part. Because a lot of people who break the law will moan like crazy when caught. When i break the law (im no angel) i accept that it might result in problems. 

[scubascuba3]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

 

I don't want that extra money, or need that extra money. 

 

What I do want is the security knowing my money is not in a 3rd World Country's banking system, and that feeling of contentment knowing you are not being screwed by a 3rd World Country's government.  

 

No complains from me should they ever seriously enforce the use of agents here. I have my Plan B to Thailand well and truly in place.   I forgot to mention I am bringing in over 65k baht a month, so have that option, should they stop the use of agents.  

 

I don't criticize anyone for doing the 800k / 1,900 baht method, each to their own, but I have put forward my reasons for using an agent.

 

Not everyone who uses an agent is broke.   

 

 

i switched from using an agent to 800k method so i have the 800k+ available in a medical emergency, you don't want to be faffing about trying to transfer money when you are incapacitated.

 

You have your money in a Fund, how long to get that transferred over? i reckon a week+, even govt hospitals want paying

[Leaver]

48 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

good move actually, if you can 6% in interests, but in most countries, it is impossible

 

is that fund in Australia?

 

Actually, the fund would have to make under 2.5% return per annum to not even cover the cost of the agent's fee.

 

800k x 2.5% = 20,000 baht per year.  

 

It would be a poor performer at a 2.5% per annum return.  

 

After living and working in different countries, on different continents, I have financial interests in more than one country.  I do have some smaller investments in Australia.  

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Leaver

[The Fugitive]

11 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

i switched from using an agent to 800k method so i have the 800k+ available in a medical emergency, you don't want to be faffing about trying to transfer money when you are incapacitated.

 

You have your money in a Fund, how long to get that transferred over? i reckon a week+, even govt hospitals want paying

Excellent suggestion thanks. Use the 800,000 kept in an instant access internet savings account to pay immediate hospital bill. Can always go back to using an agent for next extension if necessary. There have been reports of hospitals insisting on seeing payment in their bank account before commencing treatment.

[Leaver]

22 minutes ago, robblok said:

I would agree with you however you want the extra money as your excuses are strange. Because there is a 1 million bt government guarantee for bank accounts. So your remark about losing the money is not valid. 

 

Anyway at least you accept that it could give problems and are ok with that. That is for me the most important part. Because a lot of people who break the law will moan like crazy when caught. When i break the law (im no angel) i accept that it might result in problems. 

 

How much faith do you put in the Thai government to bail out the banks here?

 

They can't / don't even feed their unemployed and hungry citizens.  Do you really think they will bail out the banks, and say they did, where do you think farangs will be on the creditor list?

 

Basically, that 20,000 baht agent's fee is like financial insurance to me.  ????  

Edited November 19, 2021 by Leaver

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

There have been reports of hospitals insisting on seeing payment in their bank account before commencing treatment.

Yeah, you get to see someone from accounts before a doctor.

[scubascuba3]

3 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Excellent suggestion thanks. Use the 800,000 kept in an instant access internet savings account to pay immediate hospital bill. Can always go back to using an agent for next extension if necessary. There have been reports of hospitals insisting on seeing payment in their bank account before commencing treatment.

Very true, i recall one guy a year+ ago went to a private stroke care unit, couldn't pay the money and was transferred to Bang Lamung hospital, it didn't end well

[Leaver]

31 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

i switched from using an agent to 800k method so i have the 800k+ available in a medical emergency, you don't want to be faffing about trying to transfer money when you are incapacitated.

 

You have your money in a Fund, how long to get that transferred over? i reckon a week+, even govt hospitals want paying

 

Geez, Scuba.  I have savings in a home country bank account? 

 

I have revenue passing into that account from rental properties and other investments.  It's at call, and can be here as quick as Wise can get it here, or generally the next day as an international bank transfer.  I do maintain a modest, but healthy balance in my Thai bank account.  

 

I also have a few credit cards with high approvals on them.  

 

In any case, I have medical insurance for illness and injury. 

 

What's happens to you if you need an emergency medical procedure and dip into your 800k in the seasoning period? 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Leaver

[JustAnotherHun]

Foreign investment returns relativize if you have to transfer them while THB is rising.

[Albaby]

On 11/4/2021 at 5:01 PM, rott said:

I am told that it is necessary for the new pass. I am told by a mate who has just renewed his extension and is/was planning a trip home that coming back with 9 months of his extension left would cost 9 x 3,000 per month insurance. 

I  am puzzled as to why anyone would live in Thailand without insurance.

[scubascuba3]

8 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Geez, Scuba.  I have savings in a home country bank account? 

 

I have revenue passing into that account from rental properties and other investments.  It's at call, and can be here as quick as Wise can get it here, or generally the next day as an international bank transfer.  I do maintain a modest, but healthy balance in my Thai bank account.  

 

In any case, I have medical insurance for illness and injury. 

 

What's happens to you if you need an emergency medical procedure and dip into your 800k in the seasoning period? 

That doesn't make sense, you're banging on about investing in a fund and getting 6% but also have cash in UK account getting 0.5% if lucky. It's actually better to have cash in Thailand, higher interest most likely 1-1.5% is possible.

 

If i need to dip in the 800k no worries I'll use an agent for a year.

 

BTW International bank transfers aren't usually next day and Wise are sometimes delayed a few days over weekend and BHs, plus selling that mystery fund of yours if need be

Edited November 19, 2021 by scubascuba3

[Leaver]

17 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Excellent suggestion thanks. Use the 800,000 kept in an instant access internet savings account to pay immediate hospital bill. Can always go back to using an agent for next extension if necessary. There have been reports of hospitals insisting on seeing payment in their bank account before commencing treatment.

 

Each to their own, but it's costing you around 42,000 baht a year to use the 800k method, plus the risk, however small or large, to have your money in Thailand, and the Thai banking system.  

 

Once again, I look at the 20,000 baht agents fee as an investment, and insurance for my money, allowing me to leave the 800k equivalent it in my home country.

[Leaver]

37 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

That doesn't make sense, you're banging on about investing in a fund and getting 6% but also have cash in UK account getting 0.5% if lucky. It's actually better to have cash in Thailand, higher interest most likely 1-1.5% is possible.

 

If i need to dip in the 800k no worries I'll use an agent for a year

 

That account has money flowing throw it.  It's my everyday account.  It's what I live on.  I transfer money from it to Thailand.  It's not my main cash at bank account, which makes up part of a diversified portfolio of assets.  It has a healthy balance, but not for investment purposes, purely for emergencies like you suggest, and not just emergencies in Thailand, but for property repair, helping out the kids etc.  

 

I have medical insurance, so I don't need a big amount at call. 

 

If for some reason, Buddha Forbid, I get banged up here by the BiB and need a lot of money to make the problem go away, then I probably would have to do a day or two in gaol, but I would really have to f*#k up badly, or be framed for something I didn't do.    

 

I am not saying what I am doing covers all unforeseen problems that could arise, then again, what does in Thailand?

 

The day may come, and it probably will, when due to my age, I can no longer qualify for medical insurance, and then I will need to make some hard decisions, but for me, at the moment, 800k in a Thai bank is a waste of money, and poses an unnecessary risk having it there.  

 

Once again, each to their own.  No criticism from me.  However, one should not suggest only guys who are broke use agents, because that's far from the truth.  

 

Your method is a good idea for an expat that can not secure medical insurance.  Basically, the 800k is their self insurance money, and using an agent is their insurance for going under the 800k in the seasoning period.  However, the problem remains, and it's why we all need a Plan B here, if they truly do stop the use of agents, then many may have big problems being able to continue to reside in Thailand if using this method.  

 

I will digress a little in this post and say, as a single man, I don't fancy leaving 800k to the Thai government, should I pass unexpectedly, having 800k in a Thai bank, but I accept the majority of members have a Thai spouse and this money would be left to them.  

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Leaver

[Leaver]

41 minutes ago, Albaby said:

I  am puzzled as to why anyone would live in Thailand without insurance.

 

Perhaps, due to age, or pre existing conditions, they can not qualify for insurance, in Thailand, and maybe even in their home country.  

 

[scubascuba3]

24 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Your method is a good idea for an expat that can not secure medical insurance.  Basically, the 800k is their self insurance money,

I can get insurance easy enough at my age probably 40k-50k but I don't trust insurance firms to pay claims when needed, I'd rather do it myself as required. Many people have poor insurance policies but makes them feel better

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

I can get insurance easy enough at my age probably 40k-50k but I don't trust insurance firms to pay claims when needed, I'd rather do it myself as required. Many people have poor insurance policies but makes them feel better

 

Fair play. 

 

Insurance companies, world wide, don't have a reputation of being ethical companies. 

 

All one can do is be honest on their application form, and keep up the payments, but as you suggest, that doesn't stop unscrupulous behaviour.  

[1sickpuppy]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:57 PM, Berkshire said:

I wonder if this insurance requirement is COVID-driven.  That is, will it be a temporary scheme.  Hopefully it is as it's rather draconian and pointless. 

wish in one hand <deleted> in the other, see which one fills quickest, say no more

[Skallywag]

17 hours ago, Leaver said:

800k x 6% = 48,000 baht a year. 

 

It's liquid,

You forgot that you are taxed on that profit once you take it out.   

As a retiree I do not need to be constantly investing anymore.

Have enough with a 401K, social security, and property rental.  Do not miss the 800K and do not need the extra 42,000 baht a year from it.

Am retired - I have enough

Peace

[Mike Teavee]

18 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

You forgot that you are taxed on that profit once you take it out.   

As a retiree I do not need to be constantly investing anymore.

Have enough with a 401K, social security, and property rental.  Do not miss the 800K and do not need the extra 42,000 baht a year from it.

Am retired - I have enough

Peace

< 30,000 when you take into consideration the agent cost of > 12,000 to do the extension without the funds in the bank.

 

[Leaver]

6 hours ago, Skallywag said:

You forgot that you are taxed on that profit once you take it out.   

 

True, but like most people, I have things in place to minimize my tax.  Note I said minimize, not avoid.  

 

6 hours ago, Skallywag said:

As a retiree I do not need to be constantly investing anymore.

 

And as a retiree, I do not need to be dealing with hoops and paperwork for immigration.

 

6 hours ago, Skallywag said:

Do not miss the 800K and do not need the extra 42,000 baht a year from it.

Am retired - I have enough

Peace

 

As mentioned, I find "peace" in knowing my money is not tied up in a 3rd World Country's banking system, and a country that is run by the military.  

 

Also, being single, why would I leave the 800k to the Thai government upon my demise?

 

Each to their own.  I don't criticize those using the 800k method, but not everyone using an agent is because they haven't got 800k.  

[Mike Teavee]

23 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Each to their own.  I don't criticize those using the 800k method, but not everyone using an agent is because they haven't got 800k. 

Indeed, I use an agent & have the 800k in the bank.

 

To each his own ????????