Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

[blackprince]

Not really sure what the fuss is about on this. Travel during a pandemic is bound to incur greater costs and risks. Here's the situation for foreign travellers to the UK for example from the BBC (a few months old now).

"Travellers having to stay in quarantine hotels in England will be charged £1,750 for their stay, Health Secretary Matt Hancock has announced.

The measures, which come into force on Monday, apply to UK and Irish residents returning from 33 red list countries.

Those who fail to quarantine in a government-sanctioned hotel for 10 days face fines of up to £10,000.

....

Travellers arriving into England who lie on their passenger locator forms about visiting a red list country face a fine of £10,000 or up to 10 years in jail."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55995645

[simon43]

Why is a vaccine approved when arriving from one country and the same vaccine not approved from another?

 

I have no intention of travelling to the UK, and my Astra Zenica (donated by AZ UK) double vaccination here in Laos apparently is 'not the same' as the same vaccine given in other countries......  Seems crazy to me!

[RmcaIssan]

On 11/10/2021 at 4:56 AM, ezzra said:

Well one thing is for sure, the eazy pizzy good times of staying in this country getting more confusing as days goes by and I'm sure that the  leadership themselves not sure what to do next in order to please everyone...

''leadership' ..interesting word !!

Serious case of committee designing a horse ended up with a camel !!!

[Jeffr2]

35 minutes ago, blackprince said:

With the greatest of respect Jeff you aren't stating facts (as per your last para), you are repeating your Russian friend's opinion (as per your first para).

 

My previous point remains -  the Russian uneducated working class wouldn't be able to afford to come here, and many/most wouldn't want to anyway. The 600 dollar cost that you infer means they must be working class would actually be beyond working class Russians. Almost all Russians that come here would be middle class in their own country, and if they speak English (which most do) then as bilinguals they would be better educated than most westerners here.

 

I have a lot of experience with Russians (and Ukrainians) from working in both countries and dating Russians for over 10 years, and speaking Russian (pretty badly).

 

PS I also have nothing against the working-class, my early back-ground is very working-class. I also have nothing against people who missed higher education, many fall through the cracks for no fault of their own or simply chose not to.

 

Peace bro.

Guaranteed, I'm right.  I live right near the Ambassador and seen this for years.  With my own eyes.  Met them in the local restaurants, chatted with them, etc,etc,etc.  Most do not speak English.

 

They were junkets.  For working class in Siberia primarily.  And since you've been there, you'll understand why they consider here paradise.  Especially during the high season.  My buddy just got in from Moscow.  Couldn't wait to leave as it's sooooo bloody cold!!! LOL

 

Again, not bashing anyone here.  Just stating facts.

 

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3152351/how-russian-crime-pervades-holiday-hotspots-bali

 

“They don’t see a real benefit in learning other languages,” he says, “and as Russians have only been travelling abroad for the past 20 years they are not really comfortable.”

 

Russians came in the millions to soak up the sun and tens of thousands more made the city their home. They invested in Russian restaurants, Russian condos, Russian grocery shops and Russian clubs with names, such as Crazy Russian Girls, that leave little to the imagination. The Russian mafia followed.

 

“Russian-organised crime circles established a presence in Thailand in the 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union,” reads a declassified US diplomatic cable from 2009. “There is now a large presence of Russian organised crime networks around the popular beach destinations of Pattaya.”

[BritManToo]

On 11/12/2021 at 10:13 AM, spidermike007 said:

It is not really fair to say so. What percent of Aussies or Americans could be described as faithful and devout Christians, who reflect the teachings of Christ? Same applies here. 

Almost every white person I encounter espouses the teachings of Christ, even those who proclaim to not be Christians.

Caring (or showing concerns) for others being the primary one.

Charity and welfare are all Christian ideals.

[JetsetBkk]

31 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Why is a vaccine approved when arriving from one country and the same vaccine not approved from another?

 

I have no intention of travelling to the UK, and my Astra Zenica (donated by AZ UK) double vaccination here in Laos apparently is 'not the same' as the same vaccine given in other countries......  Seems crazy to me!

This might not be relevant, but it's an interesting video. You might want to start it again at the beginning after watching this part:

 

https://youtu.be/ihjNDf32_Ac?t=1700

 

 

[blackprince]

21 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Guaranteed, I'm right.  I live right near the Ambassador and seen this for years.  With my own eyes.  Met them in the local restaurants, chatted with them, etc,etc,etc.  Most do not speak English.

 

They were junkets.  For working class in Siberia primarily.  And since you've been there, you'll understand why they consider here paradise.  Especially during the high season.  My buddy just got in from Moscow.  Couldn't wait to leave as it's sooooo bloody cold!!! LOL

 

Again, not bashing anyone here.  Just stating facts.

 

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3152351/how-russian-crime-pervades-holiday-hotspots-bali

 

“They don’t see a real benefit in learning other languages,” he says, “and as Russians have only been travelling abroad for the past 20 years they are not really comfortable.”

 

Russians came in the millions to soak up the sun and tens of thousands more made the city their home. They invested in Russian restaurants, Russian condos, Russian grocery shops and Russian clubs with names, such as Crazy Russian Girls, that leave little to the imagination. The Russian mafia followed.

 

“Russian-organised crime circles established a presence in Thailand in the 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union,” reads a declassified US diplomatic cable from 2009. “There is now a large presence of Russian organised crime networks around the popular beach destinations of Pattaya.”

Sorry Jeff but self-guarantees mean nothing.

 

Af for junket, here's the meaning  - "an extravagant trip or celebration, in particular one enjoyed by a government official at public expense."

 

I think it's likely you are projecting your American understanding of the meaning of "working class" on to Russia. This of course is another form of prejudice (as per my own OP in this dialogue), though not a particularly pernicious one.

 

Not only have I been there, I've worked there, which always gives a better understanding than being a tourist.

 

As for the rest of your observations about Russia and the predictable "mafia", they are completely off the point regardless of their merits or otherwise. I've discussed the Russian "mafia" at length with my many Russian friends including senior former politicians, so I'm sure I have a very good understanding of it. But it's not relevant to what we were talking about so I won't digress further.

 

[blackprince]

25 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Almost every white person I encounter espouses the teachings of Christ, even those who proclaim to not be Christians.

Caring (or showing concerns) for others being the primary one.

Charity and welfare are all Christian ideals.

Caring, charity and welfare are hardly exclusive to Christianity. And it's fairly obvious that a large number of "Christian" persons and organiastions fall well short of these ideals anyway.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Sorry Jeff but self-guarantees mean nothing.

 

Af for junket, here's the meaning  - "an extravagant trip or celebration, in particular one enjoyed by a government official at public expense."

 

I think it's likely you are projecting your American understanding of the meaning of "working class" on to Russia. This of course is another form of prejudice (as per my own OP in this dialogue), though not a particularly pernicious one.

 

Not only have I been there, I've worked there, which always gives a better understanding than being a tourist.

 

As for the rest of your observations about Russia and the predictable "mafia", they are completely off the point regardless of their merits or otherwise. I've discussed the Russian "mafia" at length with my many Russian friends including senior former politicians, so I'm sure I have a very good understanding of it. But it's not relevant to what we were talking about so I won't digress further.

 

OK.  I'm from Vegas.  Junkets are very popular there.  The ones here from Siberia were private flights filled up with locals at very cheap prices.  Going to an absolutely horrible hotel, the Ambassador, on a dirty beach.

 

I give up. You win.  Jeez.

 

One of the many companies doing cheap tour packages here.  From several years ago.  They use to fly into Utapao, not Bangkok.

 

https://time.com/3081227/russia-tourists-stranded-sanctions-ukraine/

Over 27,000 Russian tourists have been left stranded abroad after the collapse of Russian tour operator Labirint.

 

Labirint is the fourth Russian tour company to tank in three weeks.

[Jeffr2]

9 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Caring, charity and welfare are hardly exclusive to Christianity. And it's fairly obvious that a large number of "Christian" persons and organiastions fall well short of these ideals anyway.

I've been to around 130 countries.  Some of the nicest and most caring were Muslims.  In my personal experience.  Travelers are very important to them.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, atpeace said:

Perhaps but I guess I'm just a little more flexible on the issue.  I will say this; requiring travel insurance would be a nightmare to implement universally with the extremely huge difference of cost between countries. I currently have a great insurance package IMO.  165k deductible and only covers hospital costs.  Doesn't meet the current requirements or vendor list.  Now what if I did meet their needs and Cambodia had different requirements...  

 

Thailand is trying and it is extremally difficult for many expats here and quite honestly doesn't make sense.  What you end up with in many cases is 2 policies that cover the same thing which is going to be ripe with corruption on both sides of the equation.  To pull this off you would need  uncorrupt politicians in every country to have viable cost effective insurance.  Good luck with that.

 

Personal freedom is paramount to me but realize it does have its boundaries.  As for tax payers paying, we as responsible tax payers always seem to foot the bill for the irresponsible or unfortunate.  Not allowing these individuals to travel IMO solves very little other than the destination of their health issues.

 

 

Every country can dictate who is allowed ( or should be allowed ) to enter. Simple enough to tell every airline with landing rights to ensure travelers to the country to have insurance. They already do that with departure tax. That way the airline bears the cost of enforcement ( passed on to the customer of course ).

Should a country not do so, IMO they only have themselves to blame for any non payment of hospital costs.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've been to around 130 countries.  Some of the nicest and most caring were Muslims.  In my personal experience.  Travelers are very important to them.

Unless you worked there I bet Saudi isn't among them. Beautiful country to travel around. Shame about the mutawa (religious police ) though.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Unless you worked there I bet Saudi isn't among them. Beautiful country to travel around. Shame about the mutawa (religious police ) though.

Saudi just opened up to tourists, as you are aware.  Before, it was a very hard place to visit.

 

Hopefully...hopefully...we'll do Oman and SA in mid January.  3 weeks or so.  I'm in a Facebook travel group with some 5,000 members.  SA is where many are going right now.  I've got several friends either there now, or were, or planning to very soon.  It's a hot ticket now!  Can't wait! 

[blackprince]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've been to around 130 countries.  Some of the nicest and most caring were Muslims.  In my personal experience.  Travelers are very important to them.

I tend to travel for work (with work permits), so while I can't claim 130 I can claim that I have a very good knowledge of the 25+ I've worked in, much better than the other 10+ I've visited briefly as a tourist.

 

As for Muslim countries, I've worked extensively in the Middle East and I've read in detail about the history of the region, as I always do for any region I work in, including Islam of course.

 

And while hospitality is part of Muslim tradition, it has to be said that the official form of Wahhabi Islam endorsed by the Saudi royal family and knowingly exported by them (financed by the oil money we've poured in) is the very opposite of the progressive liberalism you espouse.

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

12 minutes ago, blackprince said:

I tend to travel for work (with work permits), so while I can't claim 130 I can claim that I have a very good knowledge of the 25+ I've worked in, much better than the other 10+ I've visited briefly as a tourist.

 

As for Muslim countries, I've worked extensively in the Middle East and I've read in detail about the history of the region, as I always do for any region I work in, including Islam of course.

 

And while hospitality is part of Muslim tradition, it has to be said that the official form of Wahhabi Islam endorsed by the Saudi royal family and knowingly exported by them (financed by the oil money we've poured in) is the very opposite of the progressive liberalism you espouse.

 

 

 

I'm on the road an average 6 months a year, for well over 20 years now.  As a tourist, I'm retired.  Before that, traveling for work for 20 years.  I'm a slow traveler.  Hate visiting a country unless I can spend about a month cruising around.  Monaco and Nauru aside! LOL

 

Next year will be primarily Africa, 6 months or so, again.  Covid willing.

[Kwasaki]

35 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've been to around 130 countries.  Some of the nicest and most caring were Muslims.  In my personal experience.  Travelers are very important to them.

Work in Saudi for 2 weeks that was enough.

The job that came up in Qatar was a breath of fresh air. ????

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Work in Saudi for 2 weeks that was enough.

The job that came up in Qatar was a breath of fresh air. ????

Yeah, got a friend there now.  The best thing about it for him is he can't drink!  Perhaps a life saver for him! LOL

 

 

[Kwasaki]

36 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Yeah, got a friend there now.  The best thing about it for him is he can't drink!  Perhaps a life saver for him! LOL

You can drink in Qatar that's why it was a breath of fresh air in Saudi it was too dodgy. 

[NanaSomchai]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've been to around 130 countries.  Some of the nicest and most caring were Muslims.  In my personal experience.  Travelers are very important to them.

And my experience is the complete opposite.

 

- Having lived nearly 20 years in France, most of the crimes/murders/rapes are perpetrated by muslims mostly from Algeria.

- Having also lived about a year in Brussels, Belgium, large majority of crimes are perpetrated by muslims with strong ties and origins to Morocco.

- Having also lived six months in the Londonian borroughs of Barking & Dagenham (Essex sh*thole), I ran into similar issues twice and you guessed it again, they were Pakistani muslims.

 

Now, now, I know what you're thinking... "this guy's a racist", but before you get to reply, I must en-light you with the next bit as I've kept the best for last:

 

- Having also lived in Marrakesh Morocco (a muslim country, duh) for almost 10 months, dated a Marrocean girl (muslim obviously, duh) during my entire stay and was engaged with her even (we could not meet her father but I was introduced and accepted by her mother aside being agnostic), I can tell you in the end, I almost ended up in jail and had to flee the country, it was just not worth it.

 

So stereotyping and making broad generalizations might not be the smartest thing to do, but again in my personal experience, I have learnt to stay away from specific groups of people.

 

I'll let you draw your conclusions.

 

PS: Most buddhists aren't any better. I think the key to salvation might be the Philippines, afterall.

Edited November 14, 2021 by NanaSomchai
Edit: And yes, I'm aware I'm going to get crucified by the Politically Correct brigade for this post, but honestly; !@#$ it.

[Jeffr2]

10 minutes ago, NanaSomchai said:

And my experience is the complete opposite.

 

- Having lived nearly 20 years in France, most of the crimes/murders/rapes are perpetrated by muslims mostly from Algeria.

- Having also lived about a year in Brussels, Belgium, large majority of crimes are perpetrated by muslims with strong ties and origins to Morocco.

- Having also lived six months in the Londonian borroughs of Barking & Dagenham (Essex sh*thole), I ran into similar issues twice and you guessed it again, they were Pakistani muslims.

 

Now, now, I know what you're thinking... "this guy's a racist", but before you get to reply, I must en-light you with the next bit as I've kept the best for last:

 

- Having also lived in Marrakesh Morocco (a muslim country, duh) for almost 10 months, dated a Marrocean girl (muslim obviously, duh) during my entire stay and was engaged with her even (we could not meet her father but I was introduced and accepted by her mother aside being agnostic), I can tell you in the end, I almost ended up in jail and had to flee the country, it was just not worth it.

 

So stereotyping and making broad generalizations might not be the smartest thing to do, but again in my personal experience, I have learnt to stay away from specific groups of people.

 

I'll let you draw your conclusions.

 

PS: Most buddhists aren't any better. I think the key to salvation might be the Philippines, afterall.

Interesting post.  I do agree with you.  Some really dodgy areas in France, Belgium and London.  Perhaps it's because they live in ghettos where crime is rampant?  I don't know, but for sure, it's an interesting thing to think about.

 

I guess you could say the same about blacks.  Some really dodgy characters in Harlem, and I've met some really good ones in Africa.  A few really helped me out.

 

Hmmm.....

[Jeffr2]

As for the OP, in the infamous words of Mark Twain:

 

The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated

[KarenBravo]

3 hours ago, blackprince said:

With the greatest of respect Jeff you aren't stating facts (as per your last para), you are repeating your Russian friend's opinion (as per your first para).

 

My previous point remains -  the Russian uneducated working class wouldn't be able to afford to come here, and many/most wouldn't want to anyway. The 600 dollar cost that you infer means they must be working class would actually be beyond working class Russians. Almost all Russians that come here would be middle class in their own country, and if they speak English (which most do) then as bilinguals they would be better educated than most westerners here.

 

I have a lot of experience with Russians (and Ukrainians) from working in both countries and dating Russians for over 10 years, and speaking Russian (pretty badly).

 

PS I also have nothing against the working-class, my early back-ground is very working-class. I also have nothing against people who missed higher education, many fall through the cracks for no fault of their own or simply chose not to.

 

Peace bro.

Sorry, you are wrong. I know several Russians that live here and they all say the same thing; that most of these Russian tourists are low-class (their words) from Siberia that take advantage of relatively cheap prices for all inclusive holidays organized by travel companies that charter the planes and advance block book hotel rooms.

 

Jeff is correct. Both of our sources for info come from Russians. Yes, there are very rich Russians too. They stay at the fancy hotels and pay for 1st class tickets on scheduled airlines, but, they are in the minority.

What is your sources for your info?

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Sorry, you are wrong. I know several Russians that live here and they all say the same thing; that most of these Russian tourists are low-class (their words) from Siberia that take advantage of relatively cheap prices for all inclusive holidays organized by travel companies that charter the planes and advance block book hotel rooms.

 

Jeff is correct. Both of our sources for info come from Russians. Yes, there are very rich Russians too. They stay at the fancy hotels and pay for 1st class tickets on scheduled airlines, but, they are in the minority.

What is your sources for your info?

I came close to investing in a project to buy 50 hotel rooms in a small property to rent out to visiting Russians.  It was going to be marketed in Russia, managed by Russians here, etc.  Luckily, I didn't do it as the Ruble crashed and that was the end of that. LOL

 

I researched this investment quite thoroughly. One comment I made the to lead investor was why Russians would want to stay in a shoe box in the back waters of Jomtien, surrounded by trash and karaoke bars blasting all night?  His reply?  They all tell me this is paradise.  You should see where we live. LOL

[blackprince]

13 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Sorry, you are wrong. I know several Russians that live here and they all say the same thing; that most of these Russian tourists are low-class (their words) from Siberia that take advantage of relatively cheap prices for all inclusive holidays organized by travel companies that charter the planes and advance block book hotel rooms.

 

Jeff is correct. Both of our sources for info come from Russians. Yes, there are very rich Russians too. They stay at the fancy hotels and pay for 1st class tickets on scheduled airlines, but, they are in the minority.

What is your sources for your info?

As I've said before, even the cheapest prices for all inclusive holidays here are beyond the real Russian working class. You'd need to have some experience of living and working in Russia rather than passing through as a tourist to understand the Russian class "system".

 

As for some Russians saying other Russians are low-class, I'm sure you know that people are motivated by all sorts of snobbery. We see it on this forum in one form or another every day.

 

By the way. I'm assuming you were speaking to your Russians in English. If so that would demonstrate the validity of the other half of what I said about most Russians here being better educated than most westerners, which you have conveniently ignored. On the other hand, if you were conversing in fluent Russian then I take my hat off to you - you would be a rare westerner indeed, most of whom speak little Thai after decades of immersion and read zero, let alone speak and read Russian!

 

 

[KarenBravo]

27 minutes ago, blackprince said:

As I've said before, even the cheapest prices for all inclusive holidays here are beyond the real Russian working class. You'd need to have some experience of living and working in Russia rather than passing through as a tourist to understand the Russian class "system".

 

As for some Russians saying other Russians are low-class, I'm sure you know that people are motivated by all sorts of snobbery. We see it on this forum in one form or another every day.

 

By the way. I'm assuming you were speaking to your Russians in English. If so that would demonstrate the validity of the other half of what I said about most Russians here being better educated than most westerners, which you have conveniently ignored. On the other hand, if you were conversing in fluent Russian then I take my hat off to you - you would be a rare westerner indeed, most of whom speak little Thai after decades of immersion and read zero, let alone speak and read Russian!

 

 

I've worked in Russia and have worked with Russians in other countries. I like them. They are blunt and speak their mind in general.

We spoke in English.

As both Jeff and I have been told the same thing by several Russians, I will go with their explanations rather than yours, You don't actually need to have lived and worked in Russia. You just need to listen what Russians are saying and they are saying the same thing.

 

Do you think that these Russians are lying to us, all using the same fake story?

[blackprince]

14 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

I've worked in Russia and have worked with Russians in other countries. I like them. They are blunt and speak their mind in general.

We spoke in English.

As both Jeff and I have been told the same thing by several Russians, I will go with their explanations rather than yours, You don't actually need to have lived and worked in Russia. You just need to listen what Russians are saying and they are saying the same thing.

 

Do you think that these Russians are lying to us, all using the same fake story?

Well my experience is different from yours. As I've said, I've worked and lived in Russia and Russian speaking countries, I dated Russians for over 10 years, and of course I've had many other Russian friends over that time, and I speak and read Russian (lapsed).

 

Your perception of bluntness is undoubtedly enhanced by most Russian pronunciation of English. On the whole I'd say they have the same level of directness as Irish or Dutch.

 

Something else I'd add, not necessarily specific to you or Jeff's experience is that many people speaking Russian in Thailand are not actually Russian. Russian is an official language in Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan, and is used widely as a lingua franca throughout the Caucasus, Central Asia, and to some extent in the Baltic states and Ukraine. But that never gets past the prejudices of many westerners.

 

In fact the last Russian speaking person I spoke to here was from Belarus with his family, he spoke faultless English with almost no accent. Clearly highly educated and middle class as are most of them.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by blackprince

[HashBrownHarry]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Work in Saudi for 2 weeks that was enough.

The job that came up in Qatar was a breath of fresh air. ????

This must have been recently, i was in Qatar 96ish and it was much the same as SA then.

 

I then returned in 2006 and the change was incredible.

 

I fly through there sometimes nowadays and when landing / taking off it's hard to recognise the place from 25 years ago.

 

Also remmber DXB airport then it was very very small, also hard to imagine that was only 25 years ago.

[Kwasaki]

43 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

This must have been recently, i was in Qatar 96ish and it was much the same as SA then.

 

I then returned in 2006 and the change was incredible.

 

I fly through there sometimes nowadays and when landing / taking off it's hard to recognise the place from 25 years ago.

 

Also remmber DXB airport then it was very very small, also hard to imagine that was only 25 years ago.

Qatar was in no way as bad as AS was in Qatar 40years ago working there a good way outside of Doha but stayed in a villa in Doha which was a shanty town then except for a modern mall. 

 

You could buy so much alcohol per month via your Qatar Sponsor who use to come to the villa he owned and rented out to us and have a beer with us. 

 

We drunk in a bar set up by British Airways helicopter engineers also which was in there compound. 

 

I had a contract to put a new roof on a Urine plant and me and a work friend were there for 18 months using Asian labour to help with the construction.

 

[spidermike007]

14 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Almost every white person I encounter espouses the teachings of Christ, even those who proclaim to not be Christians.

Caring (or showing concerns) for others being the primary one.

Charity and welfare are all Christian ideals.

Charity and welfare are beautiful things. And they are indeed Christian values.

 

I guess you are exposed to a different group of white people than I am! Many of the ones I see these days are grouchy, bitter, stingy, and self absorbed. LOL. 

[JustAnotherHun]

Refering to low class Russians one should have a look at western tourists. The hords of tattooed Brits and half naked flipflop Germans for example