Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

[Expat68]

Can't see the money in the bank increasing within the next two years (not until things get back to anything like normality) first increase by 200,000 baht after. JMHO

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, jesimps said:

"There are a lot of expats that really cannot afford to be here."

 

Name them. You missed "In my opinion" at the start of that sentence. Too many smug types on here, with more money than sense making that assumption. Maybe you should have said "Too many tourists with no insurance who can't afford to have accidents here".

That quote had me wondering also.  Where can they afford to live if not Thailand?  There are many expats that struggle financially here but would be miserable back home.  Not ideal  but I would choose being skint here over back home every time. 

 

I knew a person that did about 6 months  in England's subsidized living facilities for the poor and 6 months here at a 12k a month resort.  I remember him doing laps in a pool the size of a large jacuzzi and being happy as a clam.   Not the smartest bloke but he seemed oddly happy while here at least.  I can't judge him because I don't have all the details and not sure if I would care if I did.

[NanaSomchai]

My experience with Thai hospitals has been extremely great overall; mind you I actually dealt with only one hospital; the Bangkok Hospital of Pattaya on Sukhumvit Road when you head North outta town so I have no idea how it's like everywhere else, nationwide.

 

With that being said, I have used them 7 or 8 times, I have never had to pay upfront for anything nor being asked how would I be paying them each and every time (I always pay CASH, this is Thailand CASH IS KING, insurances are for suckers). Clear signs of financial stability.

 

With that being said as well, I think that they've always been very cool with me might have to do with the fact that;

 

- They have had my details registered in their systems since my very first visit in 2010.

 

- The first visit I produced a blue house registration book for our house (where we used a loophole as advised by Pattaya City Hall officials on how to add a foreigner name on a blue book without the need to make a yellow book, but I digress). Anyhow my point being; even though all I do is visas on arrivals back to back and abuse the <deleted> outta the extensions and visa runs back and forth to Laos, MY name is registered as a resident on a Thai blue "tabian baan" so the hospital KNOWS where to find me, should the need arise.

 

- I have never changed my official address since I've set a foot in Thailand for the very first time in 2010. Clear signs of stability.

 

TL;DR: They are not concerned that I might be a candidate to do a runner and both my Thai kids were born in that hospital as well.

 

I think what I'm trying to say here is, in Thailand just like on a lot of different places in the World; Trust is to be earned, not given.

 

Mind you my highest bill was 135,000 baht paid CASH everything else has always been minor stuff less than 15,000 baht, but again I'm sure they'd know where to find me IF they needed to locate me.

 

Pay your bills with a smile, on time, every single time and don't be a dreg. If you want to be respected, EARN RESPECT.

[bojo]

20 hours ago, Robin said:

Will the current entry requirements for Thailand spell the end of the country as a retirement destination.?

Not for single males that have the wherewithal.....................perhaps for couples but not because of the visa requirements, more because the country has levelled up more price-wise with other destinations.............................I'm not sure that it was ever a worldwide top choice for couples though................

[Jeffr2]

13 minutes ago, atpeace said:

That quote had me wondering also.  Where can they afford to live if not Thailand?  There are many expats that struggle financially here but would be miserable back home.  Not ideal  but I would choose being skint here over back home every time. 

 

I knew a person that did about 6 months  in England's subsidized living facilities for the poor and 6 months here at a 12k a month resort.  I remember him doing laps in a pool the size of a large jacuzzi and being happy as a clam.   Not the smartest bloke but he seemed oddly happy while here at least.  I can't judge him because I don't have all the details and not sure if I would care if I did.

A few I know have gone to Cambodia.  Quite a few actually.  Not for me though.

[blackprince]

A lot of very misleading "information" here regarding the covid impact in Thailand and what can only be described as unfounded opinion to put it politely.

 

Here are the mortality rates per 100,000 population for the US, UK and Thailand as reported yesterday (10/Nov/2021) by Johns Hokpins, one of the most reliable sources of international stats over the last 18 months.

 

US 230

UK 213

Thailand 28

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

 

If you take the Hopkins stats for  new cases and adjust for population, Thailand is again below the US and UK.

 

So yes I'm sure Thailand could improve its management of covid, but which nation couldn't!

 

[4MyEgo]

20 hours ago, AhFarangJa said:

like me, you are obviously not a multi-multi millionaire, so they do not want us here. the only imagination this corrupt pile of buffoons' has is the imagination of living their lives in opulence while the plebs slave away. Like yourself, I made this Country my retirement home with my Family. All I can do now is make the best of a bad job, but always have the option to move to a nearby country if things get seriously out of control.

With respect, I hear your points, however for anyone thinking about retiring anywhere in the world, the first thing they have to ask themselves before they depart their homeland is, will I be able to get health insurance, and for those that don't want to get insured, or cannot get insured because of age, do they have enough funds to put away to self insure, now that is one side of the coin, it has nothing to do with they don't want us here.

 

I don't believe the Thai government is trying to get rid of retirees, I think that the times have caught up with those who are uninsured getting caught up with the past without these requirements being needed when re-entering the country, as the Thai government are now looking at better ways to protect themselves, e.g. perhaps they have seen a few retirees/tourists/expats end up in hospitals and not pay their the bill/s, shortly thereafter flying out, hence the reason they ask for payment up front, it's not a charity. I am guess they are wanting to close up the loopholes that have ended up costing their tax payers money from those that can't pay their bill/s.

 

The above said, thank your lucky stars that they haven't said that is now a requirement for all farangs renewing their extensions to get insurance as part of the requirement, it is only for those entering, or re-entering, so I believe they have taken this into consideration as opposed to going on the attack, which most farangs have done with the new requirements, calling a spade a spade.

 

It was reported in December 2019 that the Australia government had to pay out $84 million for unpaid hospital bills racked up by tourists who got treated and didn't pay their bills, I would think that is unfair and a waste of tax payers money personally, and would think you too would find this unacceptable if you lived in your home country ?

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/it-s-not-fair-tourists-leave-taxpayers-with-20m-hospital-bill-20191128-p53ey8.html

 

I know one thing for sure, a lot of people blame others for their own not well planned retirements, fact of the matter is, you have to ask yourself, if you were running this country or any country, would you want people entering/living in your country with those people being uninsured, personally I would devise a plan that those able enough to be insured, be insured, a prerequisite on entering the country for tourists would be to have travel insurance at a minimum and retirees health insurance at a minimum, even if it meant having some insurance agents at the airport to handle the paperwork for those entering without insurance, although it would be on the airlines to check first, like now with passengers in the pandemic boarding their flights.

 

I don't see a problem with what they are doing, however there should be some grandfathering.

 

This I see it as them tidying up their back yards and for those who cannot get insurance, naturally they would have to show an amount in the bank, like when applying for their extensions to satisfy immigration that they have the amount to cover a hospital emergency, e.g. 1 million or 2 million baht on top of the 800,000 baht for the extension.

 

The above said, if people cannot have that kind of spare funds to park in the banks without needing it, then they simply cannot afford to retire anywhere in the world and is best that they stay in their home countries to have free health insurance. 

 

For those that think that they are entitled, think again, you are not in your country so don't cry fowl, it is what is it and without thinking outside the square and depending on other government to look after us is just like expecting our own governments to look after us when we become expats, fact of the matter is, we become the unwanted, so best to fend for yourself I say.

 

To confirm, I am not having a dig at those who don't have insurance, governments will always move the goal posts, that is what governments do, whether it be for them to make more money or close up loopholes, it is just the way it is, so watch out for the bulldozer coming your way every ow and again, it's called progress and they don't give a rats a$$ who get in the way.

 

@Robin

 

 

[atpeace]

5 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

A few I know have gone to Cambodia.  Quite a few actually.  Not for me though.

Thailand is at my heat threshold and Cambodia isn't an option. Also a little too dangerous for the adventurous type.  Found myself in some uncomfortable situations when off the beaten path.  I'm sure this will improve with time but there was more an aggressive vibe 8 years ago.

[blackprince]

What I find amusing about this kind of perspective is that it comes from the psychology of a certain type of western baby boomer who looks around the world as if its their own little playground.

 

Not that I have anything agains western baby boomers in general - I am one myself. But having worked and lived in over 25 countries at last count, I'm a bit too experienced to suffer from the naive expectations expressed by some "expats".

 

The sad truth is that most (not all) western retirees come here because it's one of the few places they can afford. They end up living close to the bone, and when the economics change they are are squeezed out.

 

 

[murraynz]

20 hours ago, PoodThaiMaiDai said:

Thailand will always be a retirement destination.

 

I think once the world is vaccinated and the cases of covid amongst the locals dissipates, things will almost go back to normal.

 

I have a feeling they may keep some sort of insurance requirement as it really saves their butt so they don't have to worry about medical free loaders.

 

There are a lot of expats that really cannot afford to be here.  So I think they want to prevent these types of people from moving here.  That is why they have the 800,000 requirement.

 

The recently announced they are looking into a 10-year visa for expats LINK..

 

This shows they are still trying to make Thailand attractive to expats.

 

I agree with most of your thoughts. 

I'm also an expat, retired here for 5+ years.. 

I think the biggest problem with retirees, is that many come here with minimal funds, if the exchange rates drop, they get sick or have accident while not sufficiently ensured.. They cause major problems for themselves and the authorities.. 

Too many guys complain about things here and make excuses for themselves. 

We all get 40+ years to save for retirement... It's not the fault of Thai govt if you haven't prepared well, for retirement.. 

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, blackprince said:

The sad truth is that most (not all) western retirees come here because it's one of the few places they can afford. They end up living close to the bone, and when the economics change they are are squeezed out.

You've not noticed how 'close to the bone' pensioners live in their home countries?

How they have to choose between being warm and eating?

At least in Thailand they aren't cold.

[murraynz]

20 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I don't agree that current health insurance requirements are due to 'absconders'.

 

 

Try getting into a hospital with out first paying or having your credit card swiped...............................

Yes, that is exactly why it's like that.. Because of expats in the past, who have been unable to pay for their hospital care. 

Many don't even have funds to go back home, if they get sick.. 

 

[bojo]

14 minutes ago, blackprince said:

What I find amusing about this kind of perspective is that it comes from the psychology of a certain type of western baby boomer who looks around the world as if its their own little playground.

 

Not that I have anything agains western baby boomers in general - I am one myself. But having worked and lived in over 25 countries at last count, I'm a bit too experienced to suffer from the naive expectations expressed by some "expats".

 

The sad truth is that most (not all) western retirees come here because it's one of the few places they can afford. They end up living close to the bone, and when the economics change they are are squeezed out.

 

 

You're gonna get some flak here, especially your disclaimer in the middle paragraph.......

[blackprince]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You've not noticed how 'close to the bone' pensioners live in their home countries?

How they have to choose between being warm and eating?

At least in Thailand they aren't cold.

Quite so BritMan. Thailand is more affordable for them as I said. But in their home countries they are citizens not foreigners dependent upon visas and associated regulations.

 

Let's look at it another way, would you really want a horde of impoverished foreign retirees in England? I suspect not.

[ChrisKC]

As Mark Twain said,

 

"I have worried about many things in my life, most of which never happened"

[wwest5829]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Its hard but it happens otherwise you would not have the sob stories in Thaivisa. If you follow the heath section you can see it there too. They had a huge loss (hospitals) from foreigners not paying.

 

Now you could say Thai government would have to pay as they make money. But that is unfair to other Thai taxpayers as they see no benefits but pay for it. An option would be an extra tax on business in the tourist industry (raising prices) and then funding an account for those that wont pay. Because they are the ones benefitting.

 

Anyway you been on this forum for a while strange that you have not read the same stories.

Sure would help the comprehension of reality if creditable statistical studies had been done and made public as rot the breakdown of the foreigner unpaid medical bills. Will I am wishing the study should breakdown the various subgroups ... foreign workers, short time tourist motorbike accidents, old foggies skipping out on medical bills. Of course, it is all solvable but  ... TIT.

[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, zyphodb said:

The thing with expecting Thais who've had a western education to be more sympathetic to us isn't going to work as most of them will have been bullied unmercifully the whole time they were at the western school. So I'd expect them to think clearer than most Thais, but also hate westerners after all the bullying they received...

Rubbish our son was educated at a School in England from 5 to 12,had loads of British friends and was never bullied. .he certainly does not hate westerners.

[wwest5829]

35 minutes ago, blackprince said:

What I find amusing about this kind of perspective is that it comes from the psychology of a certain type of western baby boomer who looks around the world as if its their own little playground.

 

Not that I have anything agains western baby boomers in general - I am one myself. But having worked and lived in over 25 countries at last count, I'm a bit too experienced to suffer from the naive expectations expressed by some "expats".

 

The sad truth is that most (not all) western retirees come here because it's one of the few places they can afford. They end up living close to the bone, and when the economics change they are are squeezed out.

 

 

Agree. One of the major considerations when retiring was that I could not live a working middle class life style in my own country. So, looked around for a comfortable cost of living country with world class medical availability (heart issues), accommodating culture, etc. and made monthlong visits before retiring to Thailand. Hindsight ... would not have requested an O-A Visa. The insurance issue is causing consternation due to age and pre-existing conditions. of course TIT and there are possible "work arounds". Currently, paying 11,400 baht for useless insurance to meet the requirement. Figure I am paying for those skipping out on bills.

[LittleBear57]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

It certainly will become more expensive, but only for those who had no insurance in the first place.

 

For those of us that factored it in their retirement it wont matter much. I seriously don't understand why people would want to live here without insurance (unless high savings but then they would not complain about the insurance as they have money or could deposit it maybe)

 

 

I have insurance but it may not be good enough for the gov requirements no outpatient cover. So if I change I will have some pre existing conditions now that I didn't have with the initial policy. So the quality of cover may be less and I pay more plus the waiting time on a new policy, even if it's with the same company. Every day it seems life is becoming a little harder to live here, a plan B is required.

[Sydebolle]

Look up Dominican Republic, Mexico or Portugal ....... I can name 50+ people who moved over Thailand's "dirty farang programme" and - for sure - will never return. They all used +/- one million Baht a month for rents, out-of-house activities etc. 

[Road Warrior]

thailand  needs punters to spend money but the thai government  making it a deterrent for  expats with more costly regulations, brainless  .

[spidermike007]

6 hours ago, Maha Sarakham said:

I thought the plan was to welcome the rich by the yacht-load?

No lowering of luxury taxes. 

No lowering of wine taxes. 

No tax havens. 

No property ownership. 

No easy visas. 

No high speed rail. 

No helicopters for easy travel. 

No traffic or public safety. 

No plan.

 

All words and no action makes Cha Cha an incredibly dull boy. 

[Peterphuket]

20 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Would you like your home country being open for each foreigner who reaches the minimal income there? If not, why should Thailand do so?

Well, I think your homecountry will do that for long time, with that woman Mrs.Merkel, or I'm wrong?

[bojo]

6 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

Look up Dominican Republic, Mexico or Portugal ....... I can name 50+ people who moved over Thailand's "dirty farang programme" and - for sure - will never return. They all used +/- one million Baht a month for rents, out-of-house activities etc. 

Do love the Dominican, just not sure if I wanna retire there.................difficult to put my finger on it as to why, I have genuinely been considering the place..................perhaps my heart is just in Thailand

[spidermike007]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

I know a few that aren't doing well financially.  Exchange rates, poor investments, medical bills...forced quite a few I know back to their home country.  Where they get financial and medical help.

Tens of thousands of expats have left already. Tens of thousands more are making plans to leave. 

 

Those who remain are here despite the authorities, not because they are given incentives. 

[bojo]

1 minute ago, spidermike007 said:

Tens of thousands of expats have left already. Tens of thousands more are making plans to leave. 

 

and perhaps hundreds of thousands of Chinese are making plans to come and retire/semi retire here, it's pretty much a satellite state for them in some respects.....................................

[BritManToo]

50 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Let's look at it another way, would you really want a horde of impoverished foreign retirees in England? I suspect not.

If they can pay their own way, why not?

Although I doubt many could afford UK housing, I certainly can't.

I'd definitely prefer retirees with pensions to refugees with nothing.

Most countries are quite keen for foreign money to come into their economy.

 

I'd actually specify the amount of income ass well ........

If you bring 2x the wage of a supermarket checkout person, you can stay.

[Henryford]

An interesting video on Youtube yesterday from Integrity Legal (a Bangkok legal firm) saying that the Thai Embassy in Los Angeles was quoting retirement visa requirements of 1,200,000 baht in the bank or 100,000 baht a month income. I wonder if this is an indication of a general increase in retirement limits in the future. I guess the 800k/65k has been around for a long time. I would bet a big increase is due soon.

[blackprince]

4 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Tens of thousands of expats have left already. Tens of thousands more are making plans to leave. 

 

Those who remain are here despite the authorities, not because they are given incentives. 

I'm not sure why you think the Thai government should go out of its way to offer incentives. The extension of stay requirements are already less onerous than many other retirement destinations. The fact that so many people do chose to retire here shows that incentives are surely not necessary.

 

As for your previous comments about Thailand mismanaging covid, just to put that into perspective, here are the comparative mortality rates per 100,000 population for the US, UK and Thailand

US 230

UK 213

Thailand 28

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

[blackprince]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If they can pay their own way, why not?

Although I doubt many could afford UK housing, I certainly can't.

I'd definitely prefer retirees with pensions to refugees with nothing.

Most countries are quite keen for foreign money to come into their economy.

But the point is that so many western retirees cannot pay their way beyond basic subsistence, especially when health care is taken into account. That's why this thread was started.

 

Re your comment on "refugees". I would categorise a large proportion of western retirees here as economic refugees, but believe me their plight is nothing compared to the refugees from the numerous western inspired wars and economic catastrophes of the last few deacdes.