In another recent (LOL) thread here some have questioned what thinking 'Outside The Box' is.

From Media.com:
 

One supposed story of the term’s origin is actually a great illustration (literally) of what this kind of thinking is, and why it’s so sought-after. As the story goes, management consulting groups in the 1960s and 70s began using a particular puzzle called the “nine dots puzzle” from a 1914 book by Sam Lloyd called the Cyclopedia of Puzzles. They would present the diagram below, with the following instructions:

 

Link all 9 dots using four straight lines or fewer, without lifting the pen and without tracing the same line more than once.

 

 

The article goes on to explain that, "thinking outside the box is about dispensing with constraints — as many as possible. That’s what the solution above does, and that’s what the most effective kind of original and innovative thinking also does."

 

To solve the puzzle, and to solve the threads question, requires thinking outside the box.

 

The answer to the question of whether or not consciousness is independent of form is actually binary.  It is either yes or it is no.  There is no grey area.

 

Also, the reality of the answer is in no way dependent on opinion.

Is Consciousness Independent Of Form?

 

No. 

10 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Is Consciousness Independent Of Form?

 

No. 

Are you stating opinion (belief) or fact?  Either way, what brings you to that conclusion?

 

16 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Are you stating opinion (belief) or fact?  Either way, what brings you to that conclusion?

 

 

On 12/15/2021 at 2:53 AM, Tippaporn said:

The answer to the question of whether or not consciousness is independent of form is actually binary.  It is either yes or it is no.  There is no grey area.

 

Also, the reality of the answer is in no way dependent on opinion.

You stipulated Yes or No. My answer is No because there isn't any actual evidence of consciousness absent a brain. @Sunmaster and I went deep on this very topic in the other thread. Not being sucked down that rabbit hole again. We still completely, yet cordially, disagree. Not beating that dead horse again. It's tedious and boring. 

11 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Is Consciousness Independent Of Form?

 

No. 

I should add that I'm not expecting proof, which is only reasonable since I'm sure you don't have any proof.  You should, however, be able to supply a rational case that is as leakproof as you can make it.  For if it doesn't hold water then admittedly it would be no more than belief.  Belief that would be no different than a belief in God, for instance.

4 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

I should add that I'm not expecting proof, which is only reasonable since I'm sure you don't have any proof.  You should, however, be able to supply a rational case that is as leakproof as you can make it.  For if it doesn't hold water then admittedly it would be no more than belief.  Belief that would be no different than a belief in God, for instance.

See previous answer. 

 

Wow this dead thread is really experiencing a resurrection! ????

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

 

You stipulated Yes or No. My answer is No because there isn't any actual evidence of consciousness absent a brain. @Sunmaster and I went deep on this very topic in the other thread. Not being sucked down that rabbit hole again. We still completely, yet cordially, disagree. Not beating that dead horse again. It's tedious and boring. 

If you're fagged out then I have no problem with that.  I will say that Sunmaster's and my views are not the same.  Perhaps in some respects they are.  But no matter.  I won't attempt to twist your arm if you're adamantly unwilling to engage any longer.

Cheers, mate.  And hopefully you don't hold any of my tart remarks against you.  They're not at all meant to denigrate you.  Take them as strong challenges to anything you say for that is how I truly mean them.  Challenges taken are the road to growth.  My humble opinion, understand.

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

See previous answer. 

 

Wow this dead thread is really experiencing a resurrection! ????

You've nothing to say other than to chide, ridicule and disparage.  Your snarkiness is unbecoming.  You can't even answer a simple question as to whether or not science has blood on it's hands.  You only dissemble about refusing to answer, which certainly doesn't fool me.  Come on, Skeptic, I would think you were a better man than that.

But hey, walk away.  Makes no difference to me.

I'll add this.  The purpose of this thread is to take thought beyond it's current state.  For current thought, as I see it, is inadequate in solving the world's current challenges.

No one can claim that humans of today are all knowing (though some would pretend).  Far from it.  Ideas exist, of which we are either wholly or partially unaware, which would radically transform our race in most every imaginable aspect.  All to our benefit and to that of every living creature as well.

Some might advise that I take off my rose coloured glasses as surely I am possessed of unrealistic fantasies of unattainable idealism.  Nonsense.  The only difference between such an advisor and myself is in our ability to glimpse that actual reality.

 

If the question of whether or not consciousness is independent of form is in the affirmative then the implications of such a single revelation would be staggering.  Answering this question, taking thought beyond the massive limitations of our current thoughts and beliefs, is not some enterprise of useless, dry, philosophical musings.  The practicalities are as staggering as the revelations new understanding would bring us.

While I do agree with the idea that our current limiting thought is entirely deficient in successfully meeting today's global challenges, in which case there is a potential probability of our complete demise, no such fear motivates me in my attempts to break current barriers.  It is only a simple matter of choice, same as it ever was in any given era of our human existence; where do we want to go from here?  I prefer those choices which would lead us to create a reality which is much more reflective of our true natures.

 

And finally, and most importantly, I would emphatically point out that if one wishes to create an individual reality which is much closer to utopia than it is to dystopia then thankfully one needn't drag the entire world along with you in order to make that possible.  The choices of others do not need to impinge on yours.

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

You've nothing to say other than to chide, ridicule and disparage.  Your snarkiness is unbecoming.  You can't even answer a simple question as to whether or not science has blood on it's hands.  You only dissemble about refusing to answer, which certainly doesn't fool me.  Come on, Skeptic, I would think you were a better man than that.

But hey, walk away.  Makes no difference to me.

Utter nonsense above. Can't even say it was a nice try. ????

 

Keep baiting...this evidence based, reality driven Darwin Fish ain't biting any longer. Buh-bye now. 

Is Consciousness Independent Of Form?

It certainly is.
Consciousness is all there is.
Form is a manifestation and interpretation of consciousness.

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Is Consciousness Independent Of Form?

It certainly is.
Consciousness is all there is.
Form is a manifestation and interpretation of consciousness.

That's the side of the coin I would present evidence for, because that is the side which enjoys greater logical support.

 

Remember folks, the question is binary.  There is no in between.  Anyone who disagrees bring your evidence and I'll bring mine.  And, absent definite proof of the acceptable kind, we shall see which theory holds the most water.

 

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

That's the side of the coin I would present evidence for, because that is the side which enjoys greater logical support.

 

Remember folks, the question is binary.  There is no in between.  Anyone who disagrees bring your evidence and I'll bring mine.  And, absent definite proof of the acceptable kind, we shall see which theory holds the most water.

 

It would be nice if facts had the power to change opinions, but we all know how they just roll down like water on a duck's back. 

Core beliefs are entrenched much deeper in people's minds to be swayed simply by rational arguments.

You are what you think you are, and you live in a world how you experience it and how you believe the world and universe is! Nothing more, nothing less. So the answer is always yes or 42.

To answer the question would require a definition of what "form" means. I don't believe you defined it in your posts.

 

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

there isn't any actual evidence of consciousness absent a brain.

Disagree, as intelligence could be present in entities that don't have a human type brain eg Gaia, the planet, IMO exhibits a degree of intelligence by unleashing viruses to eliminate humanity which is attempting to destroy the very environment that supports it. The equivalent would be humans using toxic chemicals to destroy mosquitoes that carry malaria.

12 hours ago, Hummin said:

You are what you think you are, and you live in a world how you experience it and how you believe the world and universe is! Nothing more, nothing less. So the answer is always yes or 42.

However, I don't live in the Matrix, so I disagree.

19 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I'll add this.  The purpose of this thread is to take thought beyond it's current state.  For current thought, as I see it, is inadequate in solving the world's current challenges.

No one can claim that humans of today are all knowing (though some would pretend).  Far from it.  Ideas exist, of which we are either wholly or partially unaware, which would radically transform our race in most every imaginable aspect.  All to our benefit and to that of every living creature as well.

Some might advise that I take off my rose coloured glasses as surely I am possessed of unrealistic fantasies of unattainable idealism.  Nonsense.  The only difference between such an advisor and myself is in our ability to glimpse that actual reality.

 

If the question of whether or not consciousness is independent of form is in the affirmative then the implications of such a single revelation would be staggering.  Answering this question, taking thought beyond the massive limitations of our current thoughts and beliefs, is not some enterprise of useless, dry, philosophical musings.  The practicalities are as staggering as the revelations new understanding would bring us.

While I do agree with the idea that our current limiting thought is entirely deficient in successfully meeting today's global challenges, in which case there is a potential probability of our complete demise, no such fear motivates me in my attempts to break current barriers.  It is only a simple matter of choice, same as it ever was in any given era of our human existence; where do we want to go from here?  I prefer those choices which would lead us to create a reality which is much more reflective of our true natures.

 

And finally, and most importantly, I would emphatically point out that if one wishes to create an individual reality which is much closer to utopia than it is to dystopia then thankfully one needn't drag the entire world along with you in order to make that possible.  The choices of others do not need to impinge on yours.

You seem to work on the principle that most humans actually think profoundly. IMO a few do but the rest use very little of their brain. I have sometimes used the expression "sheeple", which in many cases I think is apt.

If I had to use a single word to describe the way I feel about the future of humanity, it would be "despair".

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

However, I don't live in the Matrix, so I disagree.

 

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven."

 

Paradise lost

John Milton

 

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

However, I don't live in the Matrix, so I disagree.

We all create our little bubbles, and hang on to what we know and what we believe, and what we wish to believe. Our brain is a fantastic tool to manipulate, and create whatever you wish for, even the more negative way to comfort self for earlier traumas. 

 

Some create their heavens in Pattaya or in Isan (just examples can be anywhere and anything) and nurture and cultivate the feeling of being in paradise. Others arrive paradise and expect paradise to work for them, and they fail to find paradise.  

 

A bit outside the thread but still, we are what we are creating our own world,  be it the feeling of belonging to something bigger than themselves and being consious, or just being part of the fotball team as a player or supporter. Both ways works for those who truly believe in what they do. 

 

The expression "Faith can move mountains" is true if you believe so

48 minutes ago, Hummin said:

We all create our little bubbles, and hang on to what we know and what we believe, and what we wish to believe. Our brain is a fantastic tool to manipulate, and create whatever you wish for, even the more negative way to comfort self for earlier traumas. 

 

Some create their heavens in Pattaya or in Isan (just examples can be anywhere and anything) and nurture and cultivate the feeling of being in paradise. Others arrive paradise and expect paradise to work for them, and they fail to find paradise.  

 

A bit outside the thread but still, we are what we are creating our own world,  be it the feeling of belonging to something bigger than themselves and being consious, or just being part of the fotball team as a player or supporter. Both ways works for those who truly believe in what they do. 

 

The expression "Faith can move mountains" is true if you believe so

Actually, this thread is meant to cover a wide range of topics.  No worries about being off-topic.

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

We all create our little bubbles, and hang on to what we know and what we believe, and what we wish to believe. Our brain is a fantastic tool to manipulate, and create whatever you wish for, even the more negative way to comfort self for earlier traumas. 

 

Some create their heavens in Pattaya or in Isan (just examples can be anywhere and anything) and nurture and cultivate the feeling of being in paradise. Others arrive paradise and expect paradise to work for them, and they fail to find paradise.  

 

A bit outside the thread but still, we are what we are creating our own world,  be it the feeling of belonging to something bigger than themselves and being consious, or just being part of the fotball team as a player or supporter. Both ways works for those who truly believe in what they do. 

 

The expression "Faith can move mountains" is true if you believe so

If I create my own life I must really hate myself.

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

The expression "Faith can move mountains" is true if you believe so

I believe in nothing in this life except suffering and tragedy. Perhaps I am living this life to learn from suffering and tragedy. I certainly hope so, or what was the point of it all?

I believe the next existence will be in "heaven" ( which is not a place ).

My intention all along with starting this thread has been to go into the Seth material.  Perhaps I should have used a different title as this one gives the impression that the topic is narrowly focused.  I choose the title because the correct answer to the question literally opens up an entirely new way to perceive ourselves and the world we create "outside" of ourselves.

 

One of the most significant takeaways from the answer to this thread's question, if in the affirmative, is that our dear physical reality isn't the only one.  Equally far-reaching is the inference that our source is not physically based.  We can also further deduce that the source of our physical world is not to be found in this universe.  Another extremely critical conclusion that can be safely drawn from an affirmative answer is that if our consciousness is indeed independent of form, and therefore survives "death," and we then return to our natural, non-physical environment then that would only be possible if there was a pathway between physical reality and non-physical reality.  Which would also then apply to information capable of traveling between realities as well.

So who or what is Seth?  Seth is an independent personality consciousness who has "lived often in physical existence."  Through Jane Roberts Seth has dictated numerous books in which he offers his knowledge of who and what we are and of the physical reality we find ourselves in.  If the answer to this thread's question is yes, and the implications above would be true, then this general, short description of Seth should not at all be shocking.

 

(Note:  do not go to Jane Roberts' Wiki page as it contains much rubbish.  It is useful in that it offers a comprehensive list of her works.)

 

It goes with out saying that there are those ardent supporters of science who believe Jane's works to be quackery and are bent on falsely smearing her reputation.  (We're all so very familiar with how that works given the times we're living through these days.)  So as an indication to the quality of information, Jane Roberts' works are the only works of it's kind to be archived by a prestigious university.  They reside at Yale Archives.

 

Disclaimer:  My personal involvement with the Seth material, and also similar material, has been ongoing on a daily basis these past 42 years.

To best give folks an idea of what information Seth covers then posting chapter headings is the ideal way.  The following is the table of contents from the first Seth book, Seth Speaks, published in 1972.  Many who are of a religious faith would find Seth's information about God and religion most intriguing.  Seth asserts there is, what he terms, All That Is.  He purposely avoids the label "God" due to the host of different connotations attributed to the term.

 

PART ONE

1 - I do not have a physical body, yet I am writing this book

2 - My present environment, work, and activities

3 - My work and those dimensions of reality into which it takes me

4 - Reincarnational dramas

5 - How thoughts form matter coordination points

6 - The soul and the nature of its perception

7 - The potentials of the soul

8 - Sleep, dreams, and consciousness

 

PART TWO

9 - The "death" experience

10 - "Death" conditions in life

11 - After-death choices and the mechanics of transition

12 - Reincarnational relationships

13 - Reincarnation, dreams, and the hidden male and female within the self

14 - Stories of the beginning, and the multidimensional god

15 - Reincarnational civilizations, probabilities, and more on the multidimensional god

16 - Probable systems, men, and gods

17 - Probabilities, the nature of good and evil, and religious symbolism

18 - Various stages of consciousness, symbolism, and multiple focus

19 - Alternate presents and multiple focus

20 - The meaning of religion

21 - A goodbye and an introduction: aspects of multidimensional personality as viewed through my own experience

 

For those who would be interested in reading Seth Speaks, or some of Seth's other books, you can download for free from Archive.org.  The full text of Seth Speaks is also replicated and available without the need to download, but also downloadable, at Google Docs.

 

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If I create my own life I must really hate myself.

5555555.  No, TBL, you've been playing the game of life but no one ever explained the rules to you.  The rules which were passed on to you are in large part completely made up and therefore hopelessly wrong.  No drama.

The Nature Of Personal Reality is one of the foundational books by Seth, published in 1974.  The subject matter covered in the table of contents affirms that.

Dire Warning:  Beware!!!!  According to a great American philosopher,

 

“The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions.”

― Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

Preface by Seth: The Manufacture of Personal Reality

 

PART ONE: WHERE YOU AND THE WORLD MEET
Chapter 1: The Living Picture of the World
Chapter 2: Reality and Personal Beliefs
Chapter 3: Suggestion, Telepathy, and the Grouping of Beliefs
Chapter 4: Your Imagination and Your Beliefs, and a Few Words About the Origin of Your Beliefs
Chapter 5: The Constant Creation of the Physical Body
Chapter 6: The Body of Your Beliefs, and the Power Structures of Beliefs
Chapter 7: The Living Flesh
Chapter 8: Health, Good and Bad Thoughts, and the Birth of "Demons"
Chapter 9: Natural Grace, the Framework of Creativity, and the Health of Your Body and Mind. The Birth of Conscience

 

PART TWO: YOUR BODY AS YOUR OWN UNIQUE LIVING SCULPTURE. YOUR LIFE AS YOUR MOST INTIMATE WORK OF ART, AND THE NATURE OF CREATIVITY AS IT APPLIES TO YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
Chapter 10: The Nature of Spontaneous Illumination, and the Nature of Enforced Illumination. The Soul in Chemical Clothes
Chapter 11: The Conscious Mind as the Carrier of Beliefs. Your Beliefs in Relation to Health and Satisfaction
Chapter 12: Grace, Conscience, and Your Daily Experience
Chapter 13: Good and Evil, Personal and Mass Beliefs, and Their Effect Upon Your Private and Social Experience
Chapter 14: Which You? Which World? Your Daily Reality as the Expression of Specific Probable Events
Chapter 15: Which You? Which World? Only You Can Answer. How to Free Yourself From Limitations
Chapter 16: Natural Hypnosis: A Trance Is a Trance Is a Trance
Chapter 17: Natural Hypnosis, Healing, and the Transference of Physical Symptoms Into Other Levels of Activity
Chapter 18: Inner Storms and Outer Storms. Creative "Destruction." The Length of the Day and the Natural Reach of a Biologically Based Consciousness
Chapter 19: The Concentration of Energy, Beliefs, and the Present Point of Power
Chapter 20: The Dream Landscape, the Physical World, Probabilities, and Your Daily Experience
Chapter 21: Affirmation, Love, Acceptance, and Denial
Chapter 22: Affirmation, the Practical Betterment of Your Life, and the New Structuring of Beliefs

 

Again, for those who would like to either download the book or read it on-line:  Archive.org

 

On 12/26/2021 at 7:31 AM, Skeptic7 said:

 

You stipulated Yes or No. My answer is No because there isn't any actual evidence of consciousness absent a brain. @Sunmaster and I went deep on this very topic in the other thread. Not being sucked down that rabbit hole again. We still completely, yet cordially, disagree. Not beating that dead horse again. It's tedious and boring. 

I never did get this comment in amongst all of the other back and forth we had but I have to say that the reason you give for your negative answer is patently false.

 

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence: no one seems to be sure where this phrase came from, although it is commonly attributed to the Astronomer Royal, Martin Rees, a British astrophysicist and cosmologist.

 

"It captures in eight words the important message that it is pretty much impossible to prove a negative – that is, that something doesn’t exist."

 

Evidently Cochrane

I don't know how far you went into it with Sunmaster but I would have called you out on it straightaway.  No need to go down any rabbit hole.  Why, one could easily come up with common examples illustrating the failure of your logic.

I know you're not reading this but I did want to make the point for the benefit of other readers, including Sunmaster, who must have won the argument since your premise is false.

I just got to 7 min of this intervju and was thinking about you. I have seen it before in 2019, and it was just reposted on facebook today. Give it a try

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/26/2021 at 6:56 AM, Tippaporn said:

Are you stating opinion (belief) or fact?  Either way, what brings you to that conclusion?

 

Is Consciousness Independent Of Form?

 

yes.  I know for a fact..

27 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I just got to 7 min of this intervju and was thinking about you. I have seen it before in 2019, and it was just reposted on facebook today. Give it a try

 

 

Thanks, Hummin.  I got into it for a few minutes but I'm out of time for tonight.  I'll watch it tomorrow and comment then.