Thai culture question

[Paulaew]

My wife is a teacher in a government school here. One day her department head visited our house on some school business. We said hello, she contracted some school business with my wife, and then she left.

 

Afterwards my wife complained that I did not wai her department head first. I replied that she should have wai'd me first, since I am older, better educated (I'm fairly certain) and, undoubtedly, richer (not that this should matter, but it does seem to matter a good deal here).

 

My wife said, I was wrong -- because this woman was her boss, I was required to wai first.

 

Am I mistaken, or is there a law of inherited subservience here that I'm not aware of? Should I have been the wai-er or the wai-ee?

 

Paul Laew

 

 

[tonray]

Your wife needs to stop thinking like an indentured servant in her own home ! I fully understand the need to wai her boss at work or in public and even in her own home, that's up to her. But make it clear you are not indebted to her boss in any way or in any kind of servitude to said boss. Your home...your castle. The most you need to do is offer her tea or a cool drink as a polite host.

[Andre0720]

What I see is a Wai as a sign of respect to a person who is:

- an elder

- in a position of authority, regardless of age (or wealth for that matter)

- uncertain status, so err on the politeness and respect side

 

But, the Wai that is done done with reverence, in very slow motion, is to make sure that the authority is fully recognized.

 

But if such a person is in a car, on a motorbike, in a house, not facing you, then strangely respect becomes an alien concept.

[bbko]

Did the Dept head wai you whwen entering your home?

[tonray]

2 minutes ago, bbko said:

Did the Dept head wai you whwen entering your home?

I think it was implied she did as the wife was upset that hubby did not Wai her first

[Paulaew]

Just now, bbko said:

Did the Dept head wai you whwen entering your home?

No, it was an awkward moment -- she was waiting for a wai from me that was not forthcoming. I was expecting a wai from her. It was more or less a breakdown of wai expectations.

 

What followed was a delayed and sort of fumbled co-wai. Neither she nor my wife looked happy about it.

 

Paul Laew

[tonray]

12 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

No, it was an awkward moment -- she was waiting for a wai from me that was not forthcoming. I was expecting a wai from her. It was more or less a breakdown of wai expectations.

 

What followed was a delayed and sort of fumbled co-wai. Neither she nor my wife looked happy about it.

 

Paul Laew

Next time get out the tape measure to see the depth and height of the respective Wais. Was her wai higher than yours and how long did she hold it ? (yes...I am being sarcastic)

[Hummin]

52 minutes ago, tonray said:

Your wife needs to stop thinking like an indentured servant in her own home ! I fully understand the need to wai her boss at work or in public and even in her own home, that's up to her. But make it clear you are not indebted to her boss in any way or in any kind of servitude to said boss. Your home...your castle. The most you need to do is offer her tea or a cool drink as a polite host.

I can understand some get in trouble in this country, and some will have trouble in this country ????

 

It is a wai, a polite thing to do, and especially when her boss come and visit her home. But, no one can force you to think different, fine, your problem. 

[Paulaew]

I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society.

 

I know some farang enjoy thumbing their noses at Thai norms that seem quaint or outdated or even ridiculous. And it is undoubtedly true that respect is often required when it is not deserved.  But I make an effort to go along with the conventions while maintaining my integrity (not always easy).

 

My original question could be put this way -- when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth? Andre0720 suggested in his post that it does. Not that a department head in a Thai government school is such an exalted position ...

 

Paul Laew

[Hummin]

19 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society.

 

I know some farang enjoy thumbing their noses at Thai norms that seem quaint or outdated or even ridiculous. And it is undoubtedly true that respect is often required when it is not deserved.  But I make an effort to go along with the conventions while maintaining my integrity (not always easy).

 

My original question could be put this way -- when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth? Andre0720 suggested in his post that it does. Not that a department head in a Thai government school is such an exalted position ...

 

Paul Laew

Stop thinking, just wai up to your nose every time someone visit your house, never bother thinking who or what, just wai, smile, and be polite. It really doesnt matter, except for those who have their pride and ego, and need to show who is higher than others. Make your life easier and your wife proud. How difficult can it be? 

 

When the village boss pass trough, and come by us, I never hesitate to wai, ask if they want something to drink, while speaking to my gf. Do I loose face? 

[KhaoNiaw]

1 minute ago, Paulaew said:

I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society.

 

I know some farang enjoy thumbing their noses at Thai norms that seem quaint or outdated or even ridiculous. And it is undoubtedly true that respect is often required when it is not deserved.  But I make an effort to go along with the conventions while maintaining my integrity (not always easy).

 

My original question could be put this way -- when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth? Andre0720 suggested in his post that it does. Not that a department head in a Thai government school is such an exalted position ...

 

Paul Laew

You can't reduce it all to a few simple rules, always much more nuanced than that. You've had your wife's reaction and got an impression from her boss. Both of them obviously had certain expectations in that particular situation and whatever 'rules' you might want to apply are not going to change the particular dynamic (that they both seemed to feel applied in that situation).

[Mac Mickmanus]

30 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

No, it was an awkward moment -- she was waiting for a wai from me that was not forthcoming. I was expecting a wai from her. It was more or less a breakdown of wai expectations.

 

What followed was a delayed and sort of fumbled co-wai. Neither she nor my wife looked happy about it.

 

Paul Laew

Why didn't you speak to the Woman and discuss with her who should do the Wai first ?

[Pravda]

I think it's an excellent topic and I'd like to know the answer.

[Dante99]

Oh how nice it would be if your wife and her boss were sufficiently understanding to give you some slack for not understanding the nuances of Thai culture.  

 

My experience is that Thais have been quite understanding and forgiving as I stumbled through their culture for 

30 years.  But I have never thought that I could tell a Thai that I know their culture better than they did. 

 

2 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth?

Yes it does in a lot of cases but to suggest that it is a 100% sure rule would probably be a mistake.

 

If your wife wants you to wai why can't you just do it and move on?

 

Why are you so uptight about your status?  I wai the garbage man sometimes after we chat and even do it before he wais me and feel fine about it.

[Paulaew]

Just now, KhaoNiaw said:

You can't reduce it all to a few simple rules, always much more nuanced than that. You've had your wife's reaction and got an impression from her boss. Both of them obviously had certain expectations in that particular situation and whatever 'rules' you might want to apply are not going to change the particular dynamic (that they both seemed to feel applied in that situation).

Very good advice, I think. Experience is the thing you get right after you needed it.

 

I may be a bit spoiled in the wai context. Where I live -- both in Bangkok and upcountry -- I've found that Thai people are very nice about showing respect to me, often unnecessarily. And I've always been quick to wai elders, which is often appreciated. The case I described in the my original post was the first time I'd encountered a wai stand-off. I guess, when in doubt, wai. But not children.

[Paulaew]

4 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

 

If your wife wants you to wai why can't you just do it and move on?

 

Why are you so uptight about your status?  I wai the garbage man sometimes after we chat and even do it before he wais me and feel fine about it.

Well, in my defense, I didn't know that my wife expected my to wai this person first. That was something I found out after.

 

Farang who wai everyone in sight are actually objects of ridicule by Thai people. My wife would have been even more upset if she saw me wai the garbage man, just because of how it would reflect on her. (Yes, I have to live with this).

 

Paul Laew

[grain]

In this case I would wai the wife's boss immediately. It's purely brown-nosing and will make both wife and boss feel happy and have their big faces. Just play the game...when in Rome and all that.

[Paulaew]

2 minutes ago, grain said:

In this case I would wai the wife's boss immediately. It's purely brown-nosing and will make both wife and boss feel happy and have their big faces. Just play the game...when in Rome and all that.

I think this is probably the best advice I've received. It was probably just amour propre on my part that I didn't wai her first -- I tend to have a (deservedly) low opinion of Thai government school bureaucrats.

 

But I also agree with Dante99 that my wife and her boss should have cut me some slack over this ...

 

Paul Laew

 

 

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

Well, in my defense, I didn't know that my wife expected my to wai this person first. That was something I found out after.

 

Farang who wai everyone in sight are actually objects of ridicule by Thai people. My wife would have been even more upset if she saw me wai the garbage man, just because of how it would reflect on her. (Yes, I have to live with this).

 

Paul Laew

Some take themselves and life to serius! What would Jesus do? ????????

[mtls2005]

Sounds like this is between you and your wife? Can't see where the boss complained?

 

Maybe have the wife provide written rules. And give a refresher - she is a teacher, right - pre-encounter?

 

Oh, and when in doubt, PROSTRATE. That'll earn you some points.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

27 minutes ago, Pravda said:

I think it's an excellent topic and I'd like to know the answer.

Is there something like "the answer".

 

Imagine the answer would be that the department head should have waied the master of the house first.

But obviously she didn't do that. So what now? Should the master of the house tell her that she should have waied him first? Or should he just ignore her? Or forgive her? And what would the department head make out of that?

 

In this case the boss and department head obviously expected that she should be waied first. And that didn't happen. So will she think about if she made a mistake and she should have waied first? Or will she just think: What an a#$#$, why didn't he wai me? Why is my teacher married to such a lowlife? I will let her know that I don't accept such insubordinate behavior.

 

My personal conclusion: Don't make life difficult for your wife and other family members. Be nice. And wai the others first if that makes them happy. What do you lose? Nothing? What do you win if you insist you are right? Nothing!

[KhunLA]

I would have wai'd her first and respectfully, since and only because it is your wife's boss.  

 

Whether I believed in any of the wai BS or not.  Now you know why you should have.

 

Other officials I don't know or more importantly don't 'need', I treat as equals, and will wai, but not bow to their imagined superiority.

 

I'll also go against the rules, and wai staff & children, as I have more respect for them than those that think they should be wai'd.  Giving them the equal respect they deserve.

 

[Paulaew]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Is there something like "the answer".

 

Imagine the answer would be that the department head should have waied the master of the house first.

But obviously she didn't do that. So what now? Should the master of the house tell her that she should have waied him first? Or should he just ignore her? Or forgive her? And what would the department head make out of that?

 

In this case the boss and department head obviously expected that she should be waied first. And that didn't happen. So will she think about if she made a mistake and she should have waied first? Or will she just think: What an a#$#$, why didn't he wai me? Why is my teacher married to such a lowlife? I will let her know that I don't accept such insubordinate behavior.

 

My personal conclusion: Don't make life difficult for your wife and other family members. Be nice. And wai the others first if that makes them happy. What do you lose? Nothing? What do you win if you insist you are right? Nothing!

Excellent advice. When I didn't receive a wai I was expecting, I should have wai'd immediately. And the department head really should have done the same if she were a gracious person. We were both pig-headed and defending our status. The result was a wai stand-off. Funny in retrospect but quite awkward at the time.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Paulaew said:

No, it was an awkward moment -- she was waiting for a wai from me that was not forthcoming. I was expecting a wai from her. It was more or less a breakdown of wai expectations.

 

What followed was a delayed and sort of fumbled co-wai. Neither she nor my wife looked happy about it.

 

Paul Laew

55555555555555555

In the OP's position I wouldn't wai at all. I never did, and the most I did was a bow and a smile. If the wife doesn't like it, hold the payments a while to show who's the boss in your house.

 

I was always amused by farangs that tried to be a Thai.

[Dmaxdan]

I've found that Thais tend to wai on autopilot when they meet someone new. Their hands are up quicker than a western gunslinger can draw his pistol!!

Lets face it, it has been ingrained into them since they were small children.

I'm normally way to slow to wai first!

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I would have wai'd her first and respectfully, since and only because it is your wife's boss.  

 

Whether I believed in any of the wai BS or not.  Now you know why you should have.

Do you know how to wai your wife's boss? Thais learn it through a lifetime of learning, but farangs normally have no idea of the correct wai to use.

[Bill97]

PO is full of it.

 

His status is not independent oh his wife’s, and would be equal to it often. 
 

The cultural issue here is not just Thai it is the same in many cultures.  You do not embarrass or cause inconvenience for your wife.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

Excellent advice. When I didn't receive a wai I was expecting, I should have wai'd immediately. And the department head really should have done the same if she were a gracious person. We were both pig-headed and defending our status. The result was a wai stand-off. Funny in retrospect but quite awkward at the time.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

This thread exemplifies why I never tried to be a "Thai" and bowed/ smiled instead. I never had a problem. Sounds like the boss lady was a self entitled <deleted> that thought she was important. The sort of person I despise.

[Paulaew]

1 minute ago, Bill97 said:

PO is full of it.

 

His status is not independent oh his wife’s, and would be equal to it often. 
 

The cultural issue here is not just Thai it is the same in many cultures.  You do not embarrass or cause inconvenience for your wife.

Point taken. Guilty as charged.

 

Paul Laew

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

PO is full of it.

 

His status is not independent oh his wife’s, and would be equal to it often. 
 

The cultural issue here is not just Thai it is the same in many cultures.  You do not embarrass or cause inconvenience for your wife.

Only if the wife respects her husband. If she doesn't respect the husband's culture and him personally then she deserves nothing.