ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[seedy]

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/13/palmetto-maps-107-million-roofs-in-us-while-opposition-to-rooftop-solar-grows/

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4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

You mean the people suffering are the same ones that are buying and burning the fossil fuels, yes?

 

The same fossil fuels that are used to charge EVs, yes? 

 

 

How?

 

I'm not crying, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the intelligentsia. 

 

No, do you? I know you pretend to. 

 

People in Poor Neighborhoods Breathe in More Hazardous Particles

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neighborhoods-breate-more-hazardous-particles/

 

Disparities in the Impact of Air Pollution

https://www.lung.org/clean-air/outdoors/who-is-at-risk/disparities

 

[placeholder]

On 1/21/2022 at 4:04 PM, seedy said:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/13/palmetto-maps-107-million-roofs-in-us-while-opposition-to-rooftop-solar-grows/

Did you actually read the article? It's about utility companies trying to block rooftop solar.

"The idea that ordinary people might harvest solar energy themselves for their own use, or even [gasp!] share it with their neighbors, is anathema to utility companies, which will do anything to stop that from happening so their revenue stream is protected. “It’s our electricity,” they shout, “and we will decide who gets it and how much they will pay for it!” To make sure that is the case, they spend millions of the dollars they receive from their customers to make sure local, state, and federal regulatory agencies are well stocked with people who will protect their business interests at all costs."

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/13/palmetto-maps-107-million-roofs-in-us-while-opposition-to-rooftop-solar-grows/

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

People in Poor Neighborhoods Breathe in More Hazardous Particles

The people in poor neighborhoods that are suffering are the same people that are buying and burning the fossil fuels, yes?

 

Now you want to burn even more fossil fuels in their poor neighborhoods so the rich can charge their EVs, yes? 

 

 

[KhunLA]

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

so the rich can charge their EVs, yes? 

Certainly don't need to be rich to drive an EV.  Some nice EVs start at less than 1 mill baht, cheaper depending what country you live in.   No more, even less, than what many spend on ICEs.  Same as ICEs, less if you don't need the options, or a flash ride.

[Yellowtail]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Certainly don't need to be rich to drive an EV.  Some nice EVs start at less than 1 mill baht, cheaper depending what country you live in.   No more, even less, than what many spend on ICEs.  Same as ICEs, less if you don't need the options, or a flash ride.

Your idea of rich is different from mine. 

 

So you want to burn even more fossil fuels in their poor neighborhoods so the rich "middle class" can charge their EVs, yes? 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Your idea of rich is different from mine. 

 

So you want to burn even more fossil fuels in their poor neighborhoods so the rich "middle class" can charge their EVs, yes? 

I'll be 100% solar in couple months.  Signature ... solution, not the problem.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I'll be 100% solar in couple months.  Signature ... solution, not the problem.

You'll be, so f*** everyone else? 

 

I take it you're in a shoebox condo downtown, yes? 

 

 

[KhunLA]

21 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You'll be, so f*** everyone else? 

 

I take it you're in a shoebox condo downtown, yes? 

 

 

People have options, those that don't (condos/apt), it's a work in progress.  Wind, solar, hydro and development of, is in the hands of the gov't.  Make no mistake, controlled by oil, so a very slow process here, and sadly, most countries, until that commodity runs out.

 

Not F everyone else, but don't imply I'm still, will be using fossil fuel  to charge any EVs I have.  Now 3, (not car) but E-scooter (stand up) arrived today.  Add to the 2 wheel'd 'fleet' ????, motorcycle & bike.

 

Car may be down the line, though not completely satisfied with the pricing for the range on offer now.  I want a bit more for my ฿1 mill, especially since I'm quite happy with the ZS.

 

You don't need to be rich to have an EV.  Good, dependable, new, registered motorcycles starts @ 37k, w/removable battery for condo/apt dwellers.

[Yellowtail]

13 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

People have options, those that don't (condos/apt), it's a work in progress.  Wind, solar, hydro and development of, is in the hands of the gov't.  Make no mistake, controlled by oil, so a very slow process here, and sadly, most countries, until that commodity runs out.

 

Not F everyone else, but don't imply I'm still, will be using fossil fuel  to charge any EVs I have.  Now 3, (not car) but E-scooter (stand up) arrived today.  Add to the 2 wheel'd 'fleet' ????, motorcycle & bike.

 

Car may be down the line, though not completely satisfied with the pricing for the range on offer now.  I want a bit more for my ฿1 mill, especially since I'm quite happy with the ZS.

 

You don't need to be rich to have an EV.  Good, dependable, new, registered motorcycles starts @ 37k, w/removable battery for condo/apt dwellers.

I apologize for the f everyone else comment. It was rude and uncalled for. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I apologize for the f everyone else comment. It was rude and uncalled for. 

No prob, we all have our moments ... guilty myself...

... too many times  ????

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

You'll be, so f*** everyone else? 

No but he might be an insufferable feel good person.

[ebice]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:12 AM, LarrySR said:

For those who drive a modern EV, it doesn’t take long to realise that the term ‘Range Anxiety’ is a product of fossil fuel thinking.

Once you switch from wondering “where is the next fuel station that I will have to find?” to automatically plugging-in when reaching one’s home or destination – it goes away. EV refuelling is so easy when 90% or more is done in the car’s downtime and you are doing your own thing.

For longer trips away from home, the growing network of DC fast-chargers makes that 10% or less of charging away from home base eminently possible, especially in jurisdictions like the UK (or Tasmania – as well as parts of mainland Australia) where the network is more mature and EV chargers are placed to allow for multiple recharging options.

In fact, even if the battery is getting too low to make it to a DC fast-charger (an unlikely scenario given the accuracy of range estimates and map systems in current EV choices), then finding a power point to do an emergency top-up is way easier (and quicker) than finding a 4 litre tin, funnel and getting to/from a petrol station.

from here.

https://thedriven.io/2022/01/19/electric-car-range-anxiety-is-dying-a-public-death/

word for word copy/paste?

[KhunLA]

Why EVs ... #1 reason for myself, aside from operating cost, is oil spills, whether on land or at sea.   Especially for Thailand, since small percentage of energy is produce from oil.  90% produce from non-oil sources.  Almost all oil / petrol production is for ICEs.

 

Oil slick heading toward Gulf of Thailand shores

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/bid-to-prevent-oil-slick-reaching-gulf-of-thailand-shore/ar-AAT3qIO?pfr=1

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Why EVs ... #1 reason for myself, aside from operating cost, is oil spills, whether on land or at sea.   Especially for Thailand, since small percentage of energy is produce from oil.  90% produce from non-oil sources.  Almost all oil / petrol production is for ICEs.

 

Oil slick heading toward Gulf of Thailand shores

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/bid-to-prevent-oil-slick-reaching-gulf-of-thailand-shore/ar-AAT3qIO?pfr=1

 

 

 

So you're okay with desecrating the environment with coal to charge EVs, but not with oil?

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So you're okay with desecrating the environment with coal to charge EVs, but not with oil?

Me, going solar.   

 

Natural gas burns 'cleaner', better, or so I read, 66% of Thai's energy source. 21% from coal.  Wasn't my idea, so not OK, but it is what the Gov't allows.  3% alternative energy source.  Leaves 10% for oil.   It's a work in progress, and coal is probably on everyone's short list (except China) to stop using.

 

So all that oil / petrol production is mostly for ICEs.  That / ICEs we can stop, cut down using now, especially most people not out & about, or save the ICEs for just out & about or when needed.

 

All I care about is oil spoils, as stated, the Global warming / climate change BS, fairly irrelevant to me, as 1C over next century or 2 isn't an issue, and will eventually occur naturally anyway.

 

The only thing I can control is using less of the end product of oil, so minimizing that use, and producing my own solar for my everyday needs, is all I can do.  

 

Everyone should start somewhere, not by justifying the better of 2 evils, as there is an alternatives you can do today.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

So you're okay with desecrating the environment with coal to charge EVs, but not with oil?

So you're okay with the far worse effects of ICE vehicles?

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional#:~:text=But a recent study from,from fossil fuel-powered vehicles.

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

So you're okay with the far worse effects of ICE vehicles?

Yes, and I care much more about cheap food and and energy for the poor than I do about building EV charging stations for the rich. Particularly when the poor will have to pay for them, the the electricity to run them will be generated in the poor's neighborhood. 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, and I care much more about cheap food and and energy for the poor than I do about building EV charging stations for the rich. Particularly when the poor will have to pay for them, the the electricity to run them will be generated in the poor's neighborhood. 

Hey, I got some exciting news for you. The year is 2022, not 2002.. Solar and wind are now the cheapest forms of energy out there.

And are power stations typically being built in poor neighborhoods? Or even in cities? And if they being built in poor neighborhoods, you don't think that the affect an area much large than their neighborhoods? And since the percentage of renewable power plants is rapidly increasing, whatever pollution may be caused by that consumption is declining over time.

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Hey, I got some exciting news for you. The year is 2022, not 2002.. Solar and wind are now the cheapest forms of energy out there.

This is hilarious, right up there with the 97% lie.

 

Yes, the "energy" is cheap, converting to electricity? Not so much. 

 

If it is so cheap, why do governments have to mandate they be used? 

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

This is hilarious, right up there with the 97% lie.

 

Yes, the "energy" is cheap, converting to electricity? Not so much. 

 

If it is so cheap, why do governments have to mandate they be used? 

 

 

There was a time when there were mandates. But they are fast disappearing.

There's a saying that the French have:  s.nostalgie de la boue which means nostalgia for the mud. or longing for the bad old days

And you're dead, dead wrong about the cost of converting wind and solar energy to electricity.

 

 

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

 

And if you go to the linked page, it looks even worse. There's a chart that shows it's actually cheaper to build new onshore wind power plants, or solar EV plants than it is to keep current coal power plants running.

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

There was a time when there were mandates. But they are fast disappearing.

There's a saying that the French have:  s.nostalgie de la boue which means nostalgia for the mud. or longing for the bad old days

And you're dead, dead wrong about the cost of converting wind and solar energy to electricity.

 

 

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

 

And if you go to the linked page, it looks even worse. There's a chart that shows it's actually cheaper to build new onshore wind power plants, or solar EV plants than it is to keep current coal power plants running.

 

So again, why must they be mandated and subsidized?

 

If solar is truly 60% cheaper than gas-fired plants as your chart suggests, why are utility companies not systematically reconfiguring every existing facility to solar? It makes not sense.

 

If solar is 30% cheaper than coal, why is China continuing to build coal-fired plants? This makes even less sense. 

 

More Koolaid? 

 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So again, why must they be mandated and subsidized?

 

If solar is truly 60% cheaper than gas-fired plants as your chart suggests, why are utility companies not systematically reconfiguring every existing facility to solar? It makes not sense.

 

If solar is 30% cheaper than coal, why is China continuing to build coal-fired plants? This makes even less sense. 

 

More Koolaid? 

 

As the date I presented show, even unsubsidized wind and energy easily beat coal and are now rivaling gas" Just because a government  may give it a bigger competitive advantage, that doesn't mean there aren't inherent advantages as well. Governent decisions aren't always based on the business bottom line. For 

As for China...the spectacular success of the Chinese private sector hides the fact that the govt. sector is run very poorly and needs to be subsidized by the private sector. For instance, building a power plant in China is a govt. initiative and results in a big short term boost in GDP.

"The backstory is that China’s provinces were given the authority to approve new power plants in 2014, leading to a huge surge in projects. For poorer, coal-rich provinces, building a new power plant is a way to boost GDP. With the economic crunch from the pandemic, local governments launched a wave of new projects last spring, according to Lauri Myllyvirta, lead analyst at the Center for Research on Energy and Clean Air, a global research organization."

https://www.vox.com/2021/4/6/22369284/china-coal-power-economy-climate-change

[KhunLA]

19 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If it is so cheap, why do governments have to mandate they be used? 

Gov't doesn't have to mandate it.

 

An intelligent person will just go solar in Thailand, IF possible.  With a 5-10 yr ROI, then your energy is almost free, depending on system and amount of ESS.

 

Almost free, now that's a lot cheaper in my world.  The only thing I'll need to buy is cooking gas, and petrol if & when using the ICE, and they're just a luxury / convenience thing, and no longer necessary.

[KhunLA]

Here's one the anti EV crowd must of missed ...

https://www.facebook.com/candace.l.metz/posts/10219714762729658

 

Reminds me when the LPG NGV cars use to line up overnight in Udon Thani, when converting was all the rave ... oops ????

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Here's one the anti EV crowd must of missed ...

I don't know anyone that is anti EV. 

 

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I don't know anyone that is anti EV. 

 

Personally NO, AN members, more than a few.

[Longwood50]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:16 AM, KhunLA said:

Price is the sticking point for me.  Even though long run, they'll pay for themselves vs petrol & maintenance, that's a big leap for range and performance / highway speed. 

Perhaps they pay for themselves?  At this point it is a guess.  Most of the comparison's show current fuel price to electric  They fail to take a number of things into consideration.  1. The higher price of the EV to begin with so more money "invested" in car  2. The current electric rate for home use, rather than the higher rate of electric if you use a commercial charging station.  3. The cost of the home electric charging station which is expensive and will be lost if you ever sell the home.  4. The residual value of the EV when you go to sell.  As those cars reach the time of having the batteries replaced and new technology makes them far less attractive the resale value will plummet. 

I have a hybrid toyota I get approximately 18 kilometers per litre.  No charging station, and no worries about having to search out a charging station on a route. 

For now, I think the jury is still out on whether electric cars are truly more cost effective.  I even question if the conversion to electric is not just trading one form of pollution for another.  

For the foreseeable future power plant generation will be dependent on fossil fuels.  So the cars don't burn it but the power plants do.  Also the mining, manufacturing, and disposal of car batteries is one of the most polluting group of processes that mankind is involved in. 
 

[Longwood50]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:52 PM, BritManToo said:

Tesla batteries last less than 10 years and cost $22,000 (US) to replace.

Are you sure they'll pay for themselves?

It is not just the cost of the replacement.  If a current Tesla gets lets say 400 KM to a charge and 10 years from now a new Tesla gets 1,000 who will want the ten year old Tesla at any price. 

 

[Yellowtail]

20 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Personally NO, AN members, more than a few.

Just because people don't think they are the be-all-end-all does not mean they are against them.