ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

Tesla big price drop as well.

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

[JBChiangRai]

9 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I see Suzuki has joined the price reductions group it will be interesting so see if other ICE brands join the price reductions group

https://autolifethailand.tv/discount-official-price-suzuki-xl7-thailand/

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/discount-official-suzuki-ciaz-thailand/

My youngest daughter has a 2019 Ciaz GL plus and we sold my other daughter’s 2018 Ciaz RS 18 months ago to get her the MG EV.

 

The CIAZ is a bargain on the 2nd hand market and a fine car. I enjoy driving it.

[HighPriority]

Not Thailand but Victoria Australia, an electric gerrycan 😎

 

 

[KhunLA]

https://electricdrives.tv/the-top-three-battery-chemistries-coming-soon-to-evs-and-none-of-them-are-solid-state/

[Pib]

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/18/electric-vehicle-price-drop/

 

Quote

 

It’s never been cheaper to buy an EV. Here’s why.

New electric car prices dropped $2,000 in the U.S. last month, bringing EVs close to price parity with gas-powered cars.

By Nicolás Rivero

March 18, 2024 at 6:30 a.m. EDT

The price of electric cars is plummeting so fast that they’re now almost as cheap as gas-powered cars.

 

Since EVs first hit the market, car buyers have had to pay a steep premium if they wanted a car that ran on batteries instead of a gas engine. Two years ago, they would have paid about $17,000 more on average for a new electric car than for a new gas-powered car. But that gap has been rapidly closing, shrinking to $5,000 last month, according to data from Cox Automotive.

 

That’s an 11 percent markup over the average new car price last month — roughly similar to the price difference between picking the base model of some cars vs. the performance model that comes with all the bells and whistles.

 

Tesla is setting electric vehicle prices so low, they’re almost even with gas-powered cars.

Of course, part of the reason EV prices are plunging is that consumers are not buying them as fast as dealers and automakers expected. As the industry moves beyond enthusiastic early adopters, it now faces car buyers who are concerned about charging infrastructure and high upfront costs.

 

So car dealerships are discounting electric cars on their lots. Average EV prices dropped $2,000 last month. “We’re going to continue to see price cuts or discounts just because there’s inventory and [dealers are] really trying to get these sold,” said Stephanie Valdez Streaty, director of Industry Insights at Cox Automotive.

 

That’s good news for Americans in the market for a new car who might be considering going electric. “Price is always one of the top barriers for adoption, so I think getting down to price parity is key,” she said.

Which EVs are getting cheaper?

Tesla, which sells more electric cars in the U.S. than all other automakers combined, has been the driving force behind the EV price plunge. The automaker started slashing the price for its popular Model Y SUV and Model 3 sedan in January 2023, dragging down the average for all electric cars. For instance, the base Model 3 sedan, which cost $47,000 at the beginning of 2023, now sells for $39,000. The premium Model Y dropped from $70,000 to $52,500 in that same period.

 

 

Tesla is probably cutting prices to maintain its market share as rival automakers start selling electric cars, Valdez Streaty said. There are now 57 EV models for sale in the U.S., according to Car and Driver magazine. While Tesla once commanded roughly 80 percent of the U.S. market, it’s now clinging to a bare majority — and most of its top competitors are also cutting prices.

“Tesla still dominates, but … there’s so much more competition now,” Valdez Streaty said.

EV prices are set to keep dropping

Last month’s drop in EV prices is part of a long-term trend toward cheaper electric cars, mainly due to falling battery prices. Batteries are nearly 90 percent cheaper today than they were in 2008, according to the U.S. Energy Department.

 

“Batteries can make up as much as 40 percent of the cost of the vehicle,” Valdez Streaty said. “We’re going to see battery prices continue to drop … so I think we’re going to start to see this closing near that price parity.”

 

The cost to make a new electric car could fall to the same level as gas-powered ones as soon as 2027 because of more efficient manufacturing, according to a March 7 report from the technology consulting firm Gartner.

 

EV cost is a main barrier for U.S. adults, according to a 2023 Washington Post-University of Maryland poll. If prices keep dropping as they did last month, more Americans may be willing to ditch their gas-guzzlers for electric cars.

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

A battery price war is kicking off that could soon make electric cars cheaper. 

 

"The world’s largest maker of batteries for electric cars, China’s CATL, claims it will slash the cost of its batteries by up to 50% this year, as a price war kicks off with the second largest maker in China, BYD subsidiary FinDreams.

 

CATL and BYD now make EV batteries without any cobalt, an expensive, scarce metal linked to child labor and dangerous mining practices in the Democratic Republic of the Congo."

 

 

[Gweiloman]

26 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

A battery price war is kicking off that could soon make electric cars cheaper. 

 

"The world’s largest maker of batteries for electric cars, China’s CATL, claims it will slash the cost of its batteries by up to 50% this year, as a price war kicks off with the second largest maker in China, BYD subsidiary FinDreams.

 

CATL and BYD now make EV batteries without any cobalt, an expensive, scarce metal linked to child labor and dangerous mining practices in the Democratic Republic of the Congo."

 

 

I wonder if this will translate to cheaper replacement costs for batteries, if required.

 

It’s a shame that cobalt is still being used in the refining of gasoline and diesel for ICEVs. Maybe @ExpatOilWorker can tell us why this is necessary and how the oil companies ensure no child labour in their industry.

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I wonder if this will translate to cheaper replacement costs for batteries, if required.

 

It’s a shame that cobalt is still being used in the refining of gasoline and diesel for ICEVs. Maybe @ExpatOilWorker can tell us why this is necessary and how the oil companies ensure no child labour in their industry.

EV cost about the same now (location dependent) as ICEV.   Why anyone buys ICEV, with few real reasons to, is still a mystery to me.   Waiting for price war maybe, though it's costing you while you wait.  Paying for the fuel that degrades the parts of an underperforming vehicle.

 

Oh well ... HAPPY MOTORING

[vinny41]

8 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I wonder if this will translate to cheaper replacement costs for batteries, if required.

 

It’s a shame that cobalt is still being used in the refining of gasoline and diesel for ICEVs. Maybe @ExpatOilWorker can tell us why this is necessary and how the oil companies ensure no child labour in their industry.

The majority of ev's parts are made from petrochemicals

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The majority of ev's parts are made from petrochemicals

Without a battery, an ICEV wouldn't ever start ... 

 

Without trees you would have tires ... what's your point ?  

 

Without fossil fuel conglomerates, the world would be running on alternative energy and EV all ready.  Or the corruption that allowed their control.

 

Again ... what's your point ?

Humans corrupt ... people have had enough ... that's my point.  I have solar & EVs for spite, as much as I do for the savings.  F'em all 

Edited March 21 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Without a battery, an ICEV wouldn't ever start ... 

 

Without trees you would have tires ... what's your point ?  

 

Without fossil fuel conglomerates, the world would be running on alternative energy and EV all ready.  Or the corruption that allowed their control.

 

Again ... what's your point ?

Humans corrupt ... people have had enough ... that's my point.  I have solar & EVs for spite, as much as I do for the savings.  F'em all 

My point is that some of the EV Experts on this forum seem to forget without petrochemicals there would be no EV's and I don't know of any EV's that can start without a battery

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

My point is that some of the EV Experts on this forum seem to forget without petrochemicals there would be no EV's and I don't know of any EV's that can start without a battery

I agree, and don't think anyone suggested they could.  The world of everything is intertwined.

 

One has 2000 ish parts, and fuel used to operate them, degrade many of those parts, and they need replacing.  An industry in itself, and why (the profits) they've been the dominant transport now, and for the next couple decades, or at least 1.

 

A machine made to malfunction for profits vs the alterative; batteries & electric motors that will probably outlast the rest of the vehicle.  Easy choice for some.

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I agree, and don't think anyone suggested they could.  The world of everything is intertwined.

 

One has 2000 ish parts, and fuel used to operate them, degrade many of those parts, and they need replacing.  An industry in itself, and why (the profits) they've been the dominant transport now, and for the next couple decades, or at least 1.

 

A machine made to malfunction for profits vs the alterative; batteries & electric motors that will probably outlast the rest of the vehicle.  Easy choice for some.

There plenty of 100 year old ICE vehicles on the road, I owned a 20 year old Toyota never needed any parts replacing other than wiper blades tires and 12V battery

you will have to wait a very long time to see if there are 100 year old EV's on road with their original parts

Edited March 21 by vinny41
add

[HighPriority]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

There plenty of 100 year old ICE vehicles on the road, I owned a 20 year old Toyota never needed any parts replacing other than wiper blades tires and 12V battery

you will have to wait a very long time to see if there are 100 year old EV's on road with their original parts

Fuel and oil filters, engine oil… 🙄

Have you sat in you garage lately with your engine running ?

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, HighPriority said:

Fuel and oil filters, engine oil… 🙄

Have you sat in you garage lately with your engine running ?

Fuel and Oil filters I accept engine oil I don't consider a part neither do I consider anti-freeze as a part

[HighPriority]

Cmon Vinny, surely you can do better than that ?

I didn’t include anything that an ev also requires.

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

Cmon Vinny, surely you can do better than that ?

I didn’t include anything that an ev also requires.

When I stated that my 20 year old Toyota didn't need any parts I was referring to component parts that would be covered by Toyota 

car consumables have never been covered by Toyota or any brand  with the exception if your 12v battery failed in the 1st 12 months

[quake]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

There plenty of 100 year old ICE vehicles on the road, I owned a 20 year old Toyota never needed any parts replacing other than wiper blades tires and 12V battery

you will have to wait a very long time to see if there are 100 year old EV's on road with their original parts

 

1909. 

 

Ps Not to sure about the spare tyre inside.

 

Edited March 21 by quake

[ExpatOilWorker]

13 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Humans corrupt ... people have had enough ... that's my point.  I have solar & EVs for spite, as much as I do for the savings.  F'em all 

You ain't forking anybody old pal, except yourself.

Your solar panels, EV, the little scooter and all your other "green" gadgets were all made by using wast quantities of jurassic bio fuel, especially since it os all made in China 🇨🇳. 

[Gweiloman]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The majority of ev's parts are made from petrochemicals

The majority of car parts, be it EV or ICEV are made from petrochemicals. Nothing wrong with that. Once made, EVs don’t require petrochemicals to operate but ICEVs do. Nothing wrong with that either. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of some that always mention cobalt as another reason to hate EVs. 
 

If one is genuinely concerned about child labour and cobalt mining, don’t buy a car and especially an ICEV.

[Pib]

 

See below weblink for the full CNBC article.  

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/22/byd-seagull-ev-puts-global-auto-execs-politicians-on-edge.html

 

[KhunLA]

Why would anyone buy an EV when petrol is so cheap ... 

Actually 91 is 37.65 down here in the south, Trang, Phatthalung, Sonkhla, Yala, Pattani, Narathiwat.

[Gweiloman]

I have a (genuine) question for those more mechanically inclined than I. 
 

After 5 years, does and internal combustion engine still perform like new? Similarly, does an electric motor perform like new? Let’s say 2 new cars, one an EV and one an ICEV and both drives exactly the same. After 5 years, would they both still drive the same or would one drive better than the other?

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I have a (genuine) question for those more mechanically inclined than I. 
 

After 5 years, does and internal combustion engine still perform like new? Similarly, does an electric motor perform like new? Let’s say 2 new cars, one an EV and one an ICEV and both drives exactly the same. After 5 years, would they both still drive the same or would one drive better than the other?

I doubt any 2 similar engines are or last the same. Plus how an engine is used and maintained will come into the equation.

 

The V12 Merlin engine fitted into near everything at the time, best remembered in the Spitfire, actually operated at well under 3000rpm, which meant it would survive, today's car engines are much more stressed......

[Pib]

 

https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-all-electric-vehicles-will-last-as-long-or-longer-than-conventional-internal-combustion-engines-vehicles-Why-or-why-not

 

Herve Babey

 

What is the argument behind the belief that high tech electric vehicles may not last as long as traditional internal combustion engine automobiles?

 

Several decades ago, the automotive industry witnessed a significant shift as internal combustion engine cars started integrating electronic components, replacing traditional carburetors with fuel injection, and introducing features like power steering, braking, and traction control. However, this technological advancement came with a downside – some drivers found themselves unable to perform DIY car repairs, and troubleshooting electronic faults became a challenging task.

This perception still lingers in today’s automotive market. Despite people’s familiarity with using PCs, smartphones, or highly reliable watches, doubts persist. Modern internal combustion engine cars boast a multitude of aging small processors. On average, each car incorporates around 100 electronic control units (ECUs) managing various functions through 100 different pieces of software, communicating along a CAN bus.

 

While electronic failures in contemporary cars are less common than mechanical ones, the enduring belief that electronics are prone to failure persists. In contrast, electric vehicles (EVs) exhibit highly reliable electric motors, yet their electronic sophistication surpasses that of traditional cars. Three software layers, supported by cutting-edge processors and even artificial intelligence processors, govern various aspects such as infotainment, battery management, and autonomous driving systems connected to cameras, sensors, and radars.

 

EVs stand as technological marvels compared to their internal combustion engine counterparts, akin to the contrast between iPhones and basic Nokia cell phones. Despite concerns, the electronics in cars are designed to automotive-grade standards, ensuring superior reliability compared to commercial electronics in PCs or smartphones. Moreover, given that the average daily car usage is around 1 hour, automotive electronics are not only more reliable but are also utilized far less than their commercial counterparts, contributing to their robust performance.

[KhunLA]

Haven't road the scooter in a while, a bit hot, but car is charging, so took scooter for my 8.8 kms ride to the park and back, for our daily walk.

 

Diesel ... that is one disgusting fuel.  Came back smelling of, on clothes and had to washed my face & arms.   How that fuel is even legal is mind boggling ...

[HighPriority]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Haven't road the scooter in a while, a bit hot, but car is charging, so took scooter for my 8.8 kms ride to the park and back, for our daily walk.

 

Diesel ... that is one disgusting fuel.  Came back smelling of, on clothes and had to washed my face & arms.   How that fuel is even legal is mind boggling ...

It’s the same as when smoking was acceptable.

Used to go out and be surrounded by filthy smokers all night and come home and reek of tobacco smoke, hair, skin and clothes.

One day some of our unwashed friends will see the light…

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, HighPriority said:

It’s the same as when smoking was acceptable.

Used to go out and be surrounded by filthy smokers all night and come home and reek of tobacco smoke, hair, skin and clothes.

One day some of our unwashed friends will see the light…

Yes, but to have a fuel used, that has a direct link to all kinds of health diseases & issues, when there is simple alternatives, even just better petroleum products is just wrong on every level.

[KhunLA]

 

[transam]

Just now, KhunLA said:

 

Now that's better, worth waiting for...........