ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Cameroni]

17 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

 

So you'd happily sit behind the exhaust pipes would you?

 

I think if you're driving sitting behind the exhaust pipe you're doing it wrong. In the Toureg I sat on camel coloured Puglia leather breathing in fine Vanilla scents. No smell whatsoever. And as for the car being "rattly", not even a little.

Edited September 1 by Cameroni

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

I have of course. But the silence did not surprise me because I owned a Lexus ES300 Hybrid before. I find the near total silence unhelpful and even dangerous. Sometimes I did not know if the engine was on or not. In terms of performance there are no issues, you're right, apart from not having the top speed power of ICE cars, which is not an issue in Thailand. Something you can only remedy anyway with BEVs if you pay for the very expensive models.

 

But range and the risk of fire are serious problems. If you can't park in a garage in South Korea because of the risk of fire, that's clearly not a non-issue, that's something that affects EV drivers there. And I would always be concerned about range with a BEV because I drive long distances. 

 

Some BEVs are fine vehicles of course, but given the choice between a good ICE car or a good Hybdrid and a good  BEV, I would choose the petrol or Hybrid car every day, due to the driving experience and range advantages.

 

Admittetedly I have not driven the Taycan, though seeing Tesla's issue with their flagship on the Nuerburg Ring, something  ICE's just don't suffer from, perhaps even the Taycan would have to be tested thoroughly first.

 

I don't understand how you can find a Hybrid driving experience superior to a BEV.  That makes no sense.

[vinny41]

21 hours ago, KhunLA said:

For those needing a visual aid ... BEV & ICEV buyer start out with same bank balance, used to buy in & to energize / fuel vehicles for 8 years @฿5 / kWh (PEA) and ฿36 / L (PTT) respectfully.   UP2 U 

 

 

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Steering back to ICEV vs EV ... here's  fine example why I'd never buy another underperforming, overpriced ICEV, of any version.

 

I get the impression, ICEV shoppers don't look at specs.  Something I do, compare specs before I even walk into a showroom.   Why waste my time looking at under spec'd vehicles.

 

Which would you choose  ... and why ?  

Or post 2 like, apples & apples cars for comparison, and convince me the ICEV is a better value.

 

My earlier 700k baht car comparison didn't even look at specs, just the petrol savings.

 

 

 

Your earlier car comparison didn't turn out well when comparing MG ZS with MG ZS EV

The figures are using lots of Cherries

2020 MG ZS EV purchase price B1,190,000 

2020 MG ZS purchase price Model D B700,000

On one2car 2020 MG ZS price range from B309,000 to B428,000

On one2car 2020 MG ZS EV price range from B386,000 to B499,000

Current new prices for MG ZS EV B599,000

Current new price for MG ZS model D B599,000

MG ZS EV 2020 price has been reduced by B591,000

MG ZS 2020 model D price has been reduced by B101,000

On top of all of the above add insurance costs for MG ZS EV compared to MG ZS

[Cameroni]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I don't understand how you can find a Hybrid driving experience superior to a BEV.  That makes no sense.

 

Indeed it's not the driving experience. It's the ability to fuel up at a petrol station whenever I need to. Unlike with a BEV which can't do that. So range, with a Hybrid, is never an issue. But with a BEV it's a headache.

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

Your earlier car comparison didn't turn out well when comparing MG ZS with MG ZS EV

The figures are using lots of Cherries

2020 MG ZS EV purchase price B1,190,000 

2020 MG ZS purchase price Model D B700,000

On one2car 2020 MG ZS price range from B309,000 to B428,000

On one2car 2020 MG ZS EV price range from B386,000 to B499,000

Current new prices for MG ZS EV B599,000

Current new price for MG ZS model D B599,000

MG ZS EV 2020 price has been reduced by B591,000

MG ZS 2020 model D price has been reduced by B101,000

On top of all of the above add insurance costs for MG ZS EV compared to MG ZS

That's because you're using the old price, and ignoring the new price available, which makes them the same buy in price.  For lack of repeating myself, and for others actually interest.

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Indeed it's not the driving experience. It's the ability to fuel up at a petrol station whenever I need to. Unlike with a BEV which can't do that. So range, with a Hybrid, is never an issue. But with a BEV it's a headache.

 

If you do long journeys regularly, a BEV is not for you unless you enjoy the breaks.  I do Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai every 2-3 weeks and I could get there and back without recharging.

 

I occasionally go to Kamphaeng Phet, I could probably get there without charging in ECO mode, but I prefer the NORMAL mode.  I don't go any further than that by road.

[atpeace]

2 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

It really is simple and applies to anyone who spends money on a solar system. The only exception would be if the system came free of charge.

 

Every watt used comes at a cost until ROI is achieved. No amount of smart communicating with the solar system changes that fact.

 

You can of course tell family to charge for free when your system is derating but that does not change the fact that there's cost before ROI is achieved.

 

Try this logic. People who sell back to the grid expect to get paid.

On the smart consumption subject, we actually address directly via wired comms our solar inverter to recover live data remotely. Limiting a device consumption based on the inverters derating value would be quite easy but would not change the fact that there is a cost/watt involved until ROI is achieved.

 

 

 

 

Wow, you are determined. I have free solar power available that if someone doesn't use will go to waste.  Derating, ROI, yada, yada, yada, and etc..,.  What are you going on about?  I fell asleep reading your post.

 

Lets keep it simple.  Between 10am and 4pm I usually have a lot of excess power that can be used by someone at no cost to me.  I could also use it if I had a EV and it would be basically free.  You can go on about derating and ROI but still doesn't change the fact that the EV (if I had) could be charging for free because solar produces excess power during certain parts of the day.

 

 

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Indeed it's not the driving experience. It's the ability to fuel up at a petrol station whenever I need to. Unlike with a BEV which can't do that. So range, with a Hybrid, is never an issue. But with a BEV it's a headache.

False, you can top up when ever you want to, and range has never been an issue in my BEV experience, unless you enjoy driving 4+ hrs straight without stopping.

 

CS are location (country) dependent, but no prob in TH ... 

 

 

Edited September 1 by KhunLA

[josephbloggs]

3 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

An MG4 EV with 4 exhaust pipes sound like.....a nutter on wheels 🛞?

 

I posted this before but I saw a similar Atto 3. Same location as yours. I guess it's a Thonglor thing.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

Wow, you are determined. I have free solar power available that if someone doesn't use will go to waste.  Derating, ROI, yada, yada, yada, and etc..,.  What are you going on about?  I fell asleep reading your post.

 

Lets keep it simple.  Between 10am and 4pm I usually have a lot of excess power that can be used by someone at no cost to me.  I could also use it if I had a EV and it would be basically free.  You can go on about derating and ROI but still doesn't change the fact that the EV (if I had) could be charging for free because solar produces excess power during certain parts of the day.

Yea ... they will continue to repeat themselves over & over again.   Just ignore them 

[bkknirvana]

EVs are all about control. They have nothing to do with the environment because global warming is a hoax.

[josephbloggs]

29 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I think if you're driving sitting behind the exhaust pipe you're doing it wrong. In the Toureg I sat on camel coloured Puglia leather breathing in fine Vanilla scents. No smell whatsoever. And as for the car being "rattly", not even a little.

No, not rattly at all, got it. You are confusing sound deadening with a quiet engine. You have sound deadening, the engine is noisy and rattly.

If I go to an AC/DC concert but wear noise cancelling headphones I can't say the concert is quiet. That's what you are doing.

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

That's because you're using the old price, and ignoring the new price available, which makes them the same buy in price.  For lack of repeating myself, and for others actually interest.

And you are  ignoring the fact that anyone that bought   a MG ZS EV in 2020 would have seen the value of their car being reduced by the Brand by a whopping B591,000

It seems you made the right choice in 2020 going with the MG ZS and not the MG ZS EV

as you said yourself  hard to justify extra B500,000 for ZS EV at the time

https://aseannow.com/topic/1233709-electric-vehicles-of-all-kinds/#comment-16864154

 

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, bkknirvana said:

EVs are all about control. They have nothing to do with the environment because global warming is a hoax.

Probably correct, in the future.   But at the moment, it's a better performing vehicle, that cost less, or should, if in a country that isn't anti CH.

[atpeace]

32 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

What are you using for water heater or is it cold 🥶 showers only in ur household?

Regular water heater with no problem.  Still well under my 6.2 KW limit.  Think the 5 second limit is 10KW.  My situation is much different than yours.  I have a small home and rarely run both ACs at the same time.  You probably use as much energy at 3am that I do at noon.

 

I do take cold showers in the afternoon and jump in my ice bath which is an energy hog.

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And you are  ignoring the fact that anyone that bought   a MG ZS EV in 2020 would have seen the value of their car being reduced by the Brand by a whopping B591,000

It seems you made the right choice in 2020 going with the MG ZS and not the MG ZS EV

as you said yourself  hard to justify extra B500,000 for ZS EV at the time

https://aseannow.com/topic/1233709-electric-vehicles-of-all-kinds/#comment-16864154

At the time, I wouldn't pay 1.2M for any car.  EV @ 949k was a big stretch for me, though really glad we did, as the performance is almost worth the 250k over the our 2020 ICE version price.

 

Now, knowing how well they perform, if younger, I'd probably pick up that Maxus 9, if discounted a bit, and convert it.   Or another van that wasn't so plush & cheaper.   Unless someone came out with a decent E- pick up, worthy of putting 'E-camper' on the back.

 

That's (pick up) actually still an option I'm open for, since it's just the 2 of us, and I don't need a back seat.

 

Need to do it fast, as I ain't getting any younger.

Edited September 1 by KhunLA

[Cameroni]

19 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

If you do long journeys regularly, a BEV is not for you unless you enjoy the breaks.  I do Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai every 2-3 weeks and I could get there and back without recharging.

 

I occasionally go to Kamphaeng Phet, I could probably get there without charging in ECO mode, but I prefer the NORMAL mode.  I don't go any further than that by road.

 

Yes, so basically you could never drive from Chiang Mai to Bangkok, or take a tour through Thailand with the car without careful planning and calculation as to charging, where are the charging facilities, etc. It's just a headache you don't have a with a Hybrid or ICE.

 

Not saying I do that every day, but it's nice to have that option.

 

It's not just the sensible range arguments though, it's also the more intangible factor "feeling". Even when I see a new Honda Accord it can make my beating heart race faster. However, none of these Chinese BEVs can achieve that. Not sure why that is, but it seems to me the BEV only really appeals to people who are extremely careful with money or environmental people. But BEVs don't speak to the heart. When even a Honda Accord can accomplish that.

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

At the time, I wouldn't pay 1.2M for any car.  949k was a big stretch for me, though really glad we did, as the performance is almost worth the 250k over the our 2020 ICE version price.

 

Now, knowing how well they perform, if younger, I'd probably pick up that Maxus 9, if discounted a bit, and convert it.   Or another van that wasn't so plush & cheaper.   Unless someone came out with a decent E- pick up, worthy of putting 'E-camper' on the back.

 

That's (pick up) actually still on option I'm open for, since it's just the 2 of us, and I don't need a back seat.

And you have the added bonus that your 2022 MG ZS EV has only reduced in price by MG B350,000 compared to  B591,000 if you had bought the ZS EV in 2020

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Yes, so basically you could never drive from Chiang Mai to Bangkok, or take a tour through Thailand with the car without careful planning and calculation as to charging, where are the charging facilities, etc. It's just a headache you don't have a with a Hybrid or ICE.

 

Not saying I do that every day, but it's nice to have that option.

 

It's not just the sensible range arguments though, it's also the more intangible factor "feeling". Even when I see a new Honda Accord it can make my beating heart race faster. However, none of these Chinese BEVs can achieve that. Not sure why that is, but it seems to me the BEV only really appeals to people who are extremely careful with money or environmental people. But BEVs don't speak to the heart. When even a Honda Accord can accomplish that.

Doesn't take any planning at all, touring around TH, after the first trip, yo realize you planning was a waste of time.

 

More than enough CS conveniently located.   Please stop repeating what you don't know.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

Yes, so basically you could never drive from Chiang Mai to Bangkok, or take a tour through Thailand with the car without careful planning and calculation as to charging, where are the charging facilities, etc. It's just a headache you don't have a with a Hybrid or ICE.

 

Not saying I do that every day, but it's nice to have that option.

 

It's not just the sensible range arguments though, it's also the more intangible factor "feeling". Even when I see a new Honda Accord it can make my beating heart race faster. However, none of these Chinese BEVs can achieve that. Not sure why that is, but it seems to me the BEV only really appeals to people who are extremely careful with money or environmental people. But BEVs don't speak to the heart. When even a Honda Accord can accomplish that.

 

If I wanted to drive to Bangkok, I wouldn't need to do any planning, there are high speed chargers every 30km or so.

 

If I was going somewhere off the beaten path, I may need to plan depending where it was, but I can't think of anywhere, I would comfortably drive to Khao Lak or Phuket though I would much rather fly.

 

A Honda Accord doesn't do it for me.  Unless it had a 5 litre, twin-turbo engine and could match the performance of my EV.  I like the thrill of a powerful car.

 

I also love the amount of time I save not having to fill up my car at fuel stations.  I particularly like the way they have set up the suspension, I love that I can power slide it predictably.  I've only ever had one car I could do that with predictably, that was a Honda and 25 years ago.

 

 

[atpeace]

17 minutes ago, bkknirvana said:

EVs are all about control. They have nothing to do with the environment because global warming is a hoax.

I don't know if global warming is reality or not. Neither do you, even though I sense you will tell me you know for sure it is a hoax 🙂  I'm not overly concerned about you or 99.99% of people on this earth. 

 

You're combining global warming and EV ownership together for some strange reasons.  The only reason EVs are taking off is that they are arguably cheaper to drive.  It has almost nothing to do with the environment.  My cynical opinion 🙂

[atpeace]

14 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

it seems to me the BEV only really appeals to people who are extremely careful with money or environmental people. But BEVs don't speak to the heart. When even a Honda Accord can accomplish that.

I think that is a good description of many EV owners.  I'm going to buy an EV because I enjoy traveling but don't do it as much as I would like because of the costs to fuel my truck.  Also, any type of car from a Porche to a Tesla S doesn't excite me much.  Just want to get to where I'm going and do things that do excite me.

[Cameroni]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

A Honda Accord doesn't do it for me.  Unless it had a 5 litre, twin-turbo engine and could match the performance of my EV.  I like the thrill of a powerful car.

 

 

 

According to Car and Driver, the Honda Accord V6 does 0-60 in 5.6 secs, 

 

The MG ZS EV needs 8.3 secs.

 

It seems the Honda Accord V6 is more powerful than most BEVs.

[Cameroni]

Just now, atpeace said:

I think that is a good description of many EV owners.  I'm going to buy an EV because I enjoy traveling but don't do it as much as I would like because of the costs to fuel my truck.  Also, any type of car from a Porche to a Tesla S doesn't excite me much.  Just want to get to where I'm going and do things that do excite me.

 

I can see that from a purely economic perspective a BEV can indeed make sense. If that's the main concern for people, then of course why not.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Cameroni said:

According to Car and Driver, the Honda Accord V6 does 0-60 in 5.6 secs, 

 

The MG ZS EV needs 8.3 secs.

 

It seems the Honda Accord V6 is more powerful than most BEVs.

 

The Accord V6 was dropped in Thailand a long time ago.

 

My EV does 0-60 in under 3.8 seconds.

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

According to Car and Driver, the Honda Accord V6 does 0-60 in 5.6 secs, 

 

The MG ZS EV needs 8.3 secs.

 

It seems the Honda Accord V6 is more powerful than most BEVs.

The MG ZS EV is a small family SUV.   Do apples to apples ...

MG4 Xpower ... 3.8 secs

 

At least post something that's available.  Honda Accords available now, are a bit slow.  Even the HEV is rated at ~8 secs

Edited September 1 by KhunLA

[HighPriority]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

And you are  ignoring the fact that anyone that bought   a MG ZS EV in 2020 would have seen the value of their car being reduced by the Brand by a whopping B591,000

It seems you made the right choice in 2020 going with the MG ZS and not the MG ZS EV

as you said yourself  hard to justify extra B500,000 for ZS EV at the time

https://aseannow.com/topic/1233709-electric-vehicles-of-all-kinds/#comment-16864154

 

Seems like you’re ignoring the fact that we are in the closing stages of 2024…

 

Edited September 1 by HighPriority

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

Seems like you’re ignoring the fact that we are in the closing stages of 2024…

w

Willful stupidity or creeping dementia…?

If you purchase a vehicle how much do you expect the Brand to reduce the price in a 4 year period and would you buy the vehicle knowing that the price could be reduced by nearly 50%

 

[atpeace]

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you purchase a vehicle how much do you expect the Brand to reduce the price in a 4 year period and would you buy the vehicle knowing that the price could be reduced by nearly 50%

 

That is a problem for EV owners. What is the most expensive part of an EV?  It is the battery with its battery management system and the prices for 2020 batteries/BMS which were great and still are good has dropped by more than 50%.  It is ironic that the biggest buying concern might be that it would be better to wait because the rate of battery improvements is  insanely fast.

Edited September 1 by atpeace

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

It's not just the sensible range arguments though, it's also the more intangible factor "feeling". Even when I see a new Honda Accord it can make my beating heart race faster. However, none of these Chinese BEVs can achieve that. Not sure why that is, but it seems to me the BEV only really appeals to people who are extremely careful with money or environmental people. But BEVs don't speak to the heart. When even a Honda Accord can accomplish that.

If a Honda Accord makes your heart flutter I think you should see a doctor.

I consider myself a "petrol head". Always loved cars, always loved engines, spent my life devouring tuning magazines, reading about cars, going to car shows, races, drag strips, doing track days etc.  I spent a fortune modifying my Impreza to over 500 bhp - now that could make your heart flutter. Does that mean I get excited by a mundane four cylinder family saloon? Absolutely not!! 

I love performance. I have driven (not owned) Lambos, I rented a Ferrari 488 Italia Spider to blast up and down the mountains of Jebel Jais in the UAE - now that is a thrill! (Full of speed cameras now though apparently).

If you haven't driven a fast EV you don't know what it is like. It is completely different with instant torque, linear acceleration, no lag, no waiting for your car to change down a gear or two (even though that was unbelievably fast in the Ferrari). It is a blast! My next car will be a fast EV, it is just a sensational feeling.

 

I don't know anyone who has bought one to stop global warming so don't know why you bang on about that. I do know people who have bought them a) for the cost saving, b) for the performance, c) for the driving comfort that near silent motoring gives you, or a combination of all three.

Plenty of BEVs make my heart flutter for the way they move AND they way they look. Plenty of ICEVs do too. A Honda Accord does not.