ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[atpeace]

6 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

If a Honda Accord makes your heart flutter I think you should see a doctor.

I consider myself a "petrol head". Always loved cars, always loved engines, spent my life devouring tuning magazines, reading about cars, going to car shows, races, drag strips, doing track days etc.  I spent a fortune modifying my Impreza to over 500 bhp - now that could make your heart flutter. Does that mean I get excited by a mundane four cylinder family saloon? Absolutely not!! 

I love performance. I have driven (not owned) Lambos, I rented a Ferrari 488 Italia Spider to blast up and down the mountains of Jebel Jais in the UAE - now that is a thrill! (Full of speed cameras now though apparently).

If you haven't driven a fast EV you don't know what it is like. It is completely different with instant torque, linear acceleration, no lag, no waiting for your car to change down a gear or two (even though that was unbelievably fast in the Ferrari). It is a blast! My next car will be a fast EV, it is just a sensational feeling.

 

I don't know anyone who has bought one to stop global warming so don't know why you bang on about that. I do know people who have bought them a) for the cost saving, b) for the performance, c) for the driving comfort that near silent motoring gives you, or a combination of all three.

Plenty of BEVs make my heart flutter for the way they move AND they way they look. Plenty of ICEVs do too. A Honda Accord does not. 

Great post - enjoyed the read.

[HighPriority]

39 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you purchase a vehicle how much do you expect the Brand to reduce the price in a 4 year period and would you buy the vehicle knowing that the price could be reduced by nearly 50%

 

If I need the vehicle today the price tomorrow matters not.

 

If you are hungry will you buy food now or wait until tomorrow and buy cheaper day old bread ?

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The Accord V6 was dropped in Thailand a long time ago.

 

My EV does 0-60 in under 3.8 seconds.

 

Well, you can take the  247 lb.-ft of torque from Honda's new 4th-generation two-motor hybrid system, the 2023 Accord hybrid does 0-60 mph in 6.3 seconds, which is excellent. The Honda Accord is widely considered one of the most powerful mid level sedans.

 

Its handling is superb,.

 

What EV is this that does 0.60 in 3.8 seconds?

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, atpeace said:

That is a problem for EV owners. What is the most expensive part of an EV?  It is the battery with its battery management system and the prices for 2020 batteries/BMS which were great and still are good has dropped by more than 50%.  It is ironic that the biggest buying concern might be that it would be better to wait because the rate of battery improvements is  insanely fast.

As far as I am aware the Battery prices for MG ZS EV,EP and ES haven't reduced in price much they are using a different technology to other vehicles they are using modular batteries which is made up of 6 batteries joined together

The MG EP and New MG ZS EV models have modular batteries , with 1 battery pack consisting of 6 battery modules. Each module can be replaced. The price per module is 75,000 baht

Therefore, if both car batteries are damaged, the advantage for users is that they can replace only the battery module, not the entire battery.

While the MG 4 Electric car has a cell2pack (CTP) battery , the price will be 525,000 THB (Not include VAT)

https://www.prachachat.net/motoring/news-1229139

The battery price reductions that we have seen in the media are mainly for the cell2pack which have come down in price by approx 50%

You are right about to be concerned about the rate of battery improvements and it worth checking out which models have plastic battery covers and which ones have metal battery covers

doing a search in the motor forum for rat or rodent will explain why

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Well, you can take the  247 lb.-ft of torque from Honda's new 4th-generation two-motor hybrid system, the 2023 Accord hybrid does 0-60 mph in 6.3 seconds, which is excellent. The Honda Accord is widely considered one of the most powerful mid level sedans.

 

Its handling is superb,.

 

What EV is this that does 0.60 in 3.8 seconds?

 

The BYD Seal Performance AWD, actually it's faster than that, it does 0-62 in 3.8 seconds

Edited September 1 by JBChiangRai
and 530hp

[atpeace]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

As far as I am aware the Battery prices for MG ZS EV,EP and ES haven't reduced in price much they are using a different technology to other vehicles they are using modular batteries which is made up of 6 batteries joined together

The MG EP and New MG ZS EV models have modular batteries , with 1 battery pack consisting of 6 battery modules. Each module can be replaced. The price per module is 75,000 baht

Therefore, if both car batteries are damaged, the advantage for users is that they can replace only the battery module, not the entire battery.

While the MG 4 Electric car has a cell2pack (CTP) battery , the price will be 525,000 THB (Not include VAT)

https://www.prachachat.net/motoring/news-1229139

The battery price reductions that we have seen in the media are mainly for the cell2pack which have come down in price by approx 50%

You are right about to be concerned about the rate of battery improvements and it worth checking out which models have plastic battery covers and which ones have metal battery covers

doing a search in the motor forum for rat or rodent will explain why

Yes, I agree with the above.  The 50% was just a generalization.  What I was trying to say is the battery management systems have improved as well as the batteries themselves. This hurts the value of previously purchased EVs. 

 

I just installed 6.5 KW of solar and 15 kWh of storage knowing it will be much cheaper in 3 years.  Just have to do it at some point.  Deflation can kill personal productivity 🙂

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

If I need the vehicle today the price tomorrow matters not.

 

If you are hungry will you buy food now or wait until tomorrow and buy cheaper day old bread ?

Clearly forum members are concerned about price reductions

one forum member told MG that they could take their cyberster to where the sun doesn't shine becase they refused to provide him with a price reduction guarantee

There was a news article recently where over 50+ Byd owners want Byd to buy back their vehicles due to the huge price reduction

 

So clearly people are concerned about EV price reductions

On the MG ZS it clear why MG have only reduced the price of the MG ZS as replacement model will be announced either in the December 2024 motor show or the March 2025 motor show

MG ZS petrol registrations for the past 19 months January 1st 2023  to 31st July 2024 4,122

MG ZS EV registrations for the same period 2,074

Hence no price reductions on MG ZS petrol for the past 4 years

Edited September 1 by vinny41
typo

[Cameroni]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The BYD Seal Performance AWD, actually it's faster than that, it does 0-62 in 3.8 seconds

3.8, yes that's what I saw. Very good. But I see it has issues with the user interface, you get some voice telling  you off if you drive 1 km too fast. Is that true?

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

And yet you told MG to take their Cyberster to a place where the sun doesn't shine because they refused to provide you with a 12 month price reduction guarantee

So clearly people are concerned about EV price reductions

On the MG ZS it clear why MG have only reduced the price of the MG ZS as replacement model will be announced either in the December 2024 motor show or the March 2025 motor show

MG ZS petrol registrations for the past 19 months January 1st 2023  to 31st July 2024 4,122

MG ZS EV registrations for the same period 2,074

Hence no price reductions on MG ZS petrol for the past 4 years

 

I think your mixing up people, Alzheimer's?

 

I am the one who canceled my Cyberster order, mostly because of not getting price protection.

 

I was unhappy with the battery chemistry too, I much prefer LFP.

 

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Cameroni said:

3.8, yes that's what I saw. Very good. But I see it has issues with the user interface, you get some voice telling  you off if you drive 1 km too fast. Is that true?

 

Not with mine, I told her to wind her neck in (disabled that warning).  All the warnings can be disabled.

 

It does have excellent voice control, like...

Wind down the drivers window 25%

Turn on seat ventilation in the front row at position 1

Navigate to ...

 

[Cameroni]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Not with mine, I told her to wind her neck in (disabled that warning).  All the warnings can be disabled.

 

It does have excellent voice control, like...

Wind down the drivers window 25%

Turn on seat ventilation in the front row at position 1

Navigate to ...

 

Okay, and the top model costs about 2 million Baht?

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Cameroni said:

Okay, and the top model costs about 2 million Baht?

 

I think it's 1.6M baht, same segment as Honda Accord.

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think your mixing up people, Alzheimer's?

 

I am the one who canceled my Cyberster order, mostly because of not getting price protection.

 

I was unhappy with the battery chemistry too, I much prefer LFP.

 

I know and I corrected my Post

as for comments about Alzheimer's? or dementia

In my opinion poor state shown by posters

My mothe died from a long battle with dementia

[motdaeng]

3 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

3.8, yes that's what I saw. Very good. But I see it has issues with the user interface, you get some voice telling  you off if you drive 1 km too fast. Is that true?

 

wouldn't it be better if you first gained some basic knowledge about electric vehicles before commenting on topics you clearly know nothing about?

your posts reflect the typical attitude of an ev hater, someone who has no real interest in learning about ev's and just wants to troll ...

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think it's 1.6M baht, same segment as Honda Accord.

 

On paper looks like a very good deal. Shame about the range issue.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, vinny41 said:

I know and I corrected my Post

as for comments about Alzheimer's? or dementia

In my opinion poor state shown by posters

My mothe died from a long battle with dementia

 

As did mine, and I worry I might have it.  

[motdaeng]

8 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

On paper looks like a very good deal. Shame about the range issue.

 

it seems non ev owner have range issue ...

Edited September 1 by motdaeng

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Cameroni said:

 

On paper looks like a very good deal. Shame about the range issue.

 

The range is fairly reasonable, a realistic 500km and charging at about 150 Kw.  You can go from 20%-80% in about 20 minutes.  LFP (safe) battery chemistry too.  A very fun car to drive, instant 670NM of torque available.

 

I have driven the Taycan and I would say the Seal is 90% of the car at less than 20% of the cost.

[Gweiloman]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

I have of course. But the silence did not surprise me because I owned a Lexus ES300 Hybrid before. I find the near total silence unhelpful and even dangerous. Sometimes I did not know if the engine was on or not. In terms of performance there are no issues, you're right, apart from not having the top speed power of ICE cars, which is not an issue in Thailand. Something you can only remedy anyway with BEVs if you pay for the very expensive models.

 

But range and the risk of fire are serious problems. If you can't park in a garage in South Korea because of the risk of fire, that's clearly not a non-issue, that's something that affects EV drivers there. And I would always be concerned about range with a BEV because I drive long distances. 

 

Some BEVs are fine vehicles of course, but given the choice between a good ICE car or a good Hybdrid and a good  BEV, I would choose the petrol or Hybrid car every day, due to the driving experience and range advantages.

 

Admittetedly I have not driven the Taycan, though seeing Tesla's issue with their flagship on the Nuerburg Ring, something  ICE's just don't suffer from, perhaps even the Taycan would have to be tested thoroughly first.

When you say you had, do you mean your Lexus hybrid or a full EV? If it’s the former, then I beg to differ. A normal hybrid (unless it’s a PHEV) is just an ICEV with a minuscule battery to give a bit of extra HP now and then. The combustion engine is always running with all the associated noise, heat loss and vibration. None of these are present in an EV. As for whet my car is on or off, I find that a quick glance on my instrument cluster usually tells me what I need to know.

 

Range seems to be an issue mostly for non-EV owners. In reality, it’s not range that is the issue per se but the time it takes to recharge the battery. With very few exceptions, there are plenty of rapid chargers all over Thailand so it is highly unlikely that an EV would be stranded somewhere due to a flat battery. If you frequently drive long distances, then, as stated many times before, an EV is probably not suitable for you. But for many of us, it is preferable to an ICEV, for the many reasons stated previously.

 

I don’t understand your obsession with top speed. With the exception of some, not all, motorways in Germany, practically every country in the world has a top speed limit of 90-130 kmh, something that practically every EV on the market is capable of (exception being the Neta V that is speed limited to 120 kmh). More importantly, what you want in Thailand is torque (acceleration) for overtaking, especially in the more mountainous areas and joining traffic in the fast lane after a U-turn.

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

it seems no ev owner have range issue ...

 

Of course they don't, of course they don't...

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

it seems no ev owner have range issue ...

 

I would concur with that.  You need to own one then you "get it".

[Cameroni]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The range is fairly reasonable, a realistic 500km and charging at about 150 Kw.  You can go from 20%-80% in about 20 minutes.  LFP (safe) battery chemistry too.  A very fun car to drive, instant 670NM of torque available.

 

I have driven the Taycan and I would say the Seal is 90% of the car at less than 20% of the cost.

 

It's really good actually...for an EV. 354 miles...

 

But it's the same issue, once the 354 miles are done, no petrol station and you have to find a charging station.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

it seems no ev owner have range issue ...

 

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

Of course they don't, of course they don't...

 

 

 

When I first got an EV I did worry about range acxiety.  Then I made a point of looking for charging stations and I was astounded.

 

The other issue people who don't have an EV think about is lack of charging stations where they live.  The reality is the nearest you probably need one is 250km away.

[motdaeng]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

But it's the same issue, once the 354 miles are done, no petrol station and you have to find a charging station.

 

why do you like to act clueless? are you really that lost, or are you just trolling... or maybe both?

[Gweiloman]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

It's really good actually...for an EV. 354 miles...

 

But it's the same issue, once the 354 miles are done, no petrol station and you have to find a charging station.

Actually no. We charge when we can, not when we have to. So when I do a road trip, I usually stop every couple of hours. I then leave the car to charge while I’m doing whatever I need to, eat, take the dogs for a pee whatever.

[Cameroni]

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

When you say you had, do you mean your Lexus hybrid or a full EV? If it’s the former, then I beg to differ. A normal hybrid (unless it’s a PHEV) is just an ICEV with a minuscule battery to give a bit of extra HP now and then. The combustion engine is always running with all the associated noise, heat loss and vibration. None of these are present in an EV. As for whet my car is on or off, I find that a quick glance on my instrument cluster usually tells me what I need to know.

 

Range seems to be an issue mostly for non-EV owners. In reality, it’s not range that is the issue per se but the time it takes to recharge the battery. With very few exceptions, there are plenty of rapid chargers all over Thailand so it is highly unlikely that an EV would be stranded somewhere due to a flat battery. If you frequently drive long distances, then, as stated many times before, an EV is probably not suitable for you. But for many of us, it is preferable to an ICEV, for the many reasons stated previously.

 

I don’t understand your obsession with top speed. With the exception of some, not all, motorways in Germany, practically every country in the world has a top speed limit of 90-130 kmh, something that practically every EV on the market is capable of (exception being the Neta V that is speed limited to 120 kmh). More importantly, what you want in Thailand is torque (acceleration) for overtaking, especially in the more mountainous areas and joining traffic in the fast lane after a U-turn.

 

Indeed the time it takes to charge is a major issue with EVs, the quite excellent on paper BYD Seal apparently needs 11 hours plus charging.

 

Ouch.

 

I've driven new EVs in Thailand too. The reason top speed is important is for overtaking, torque yes, but the speed limit in Thailand is not exactly well enforced, people routinely exceed the limit.

 

But I agree on the importance of torque, I would want an EV with high ground clearance and good torque, an SUV. If I would ever get an EV. 

[Gweiloman]

6 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Of course they don't, of course they don't...

 

 

Admittedly, these past few weeks, I’ve only driven my car for 100 km or so before needing another full charge. Maybe it’s because I’m dumping loads of electrons into my PHEV and house.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

It's really good actually...for an EV. 354 miles...

 

But it's the same issue, once the 354 miles are done, no petrol station and you have to find a charging station.

 

I think you should test drive a BYD Seal Performance and a Honda Accord.  You will probably be astounded.

 

If you're just going on major highways, you won't have an issue with charging stations and if you're going into the backwoods, just charge up before you do.  Most hotels now have a charging point too.  I have occasionally gone to Sukhothai and was surprised last week to find the hotels I normally use all have charging points.

 

Charging on the road is probably never going to be more than 30 minutes, and overnight charging is never 0-100%, so realistically 6 or 7 hours maximum.  It's really a non-issue.

[Gweiloman]

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Indeed the time it takes to charge is a major issue with EVs, the quite excellent on paper BYD Seal apparently needs 11 hours plus charging.

 

Ouch.

 

I've driven new EVs in Thailand too. The reason top speed is important is for overtaking, torque yes, but the speed limit in Thailand is not exactly well enforced, people routinely exceed the limit.

 

But I agree on the importance of torque, I would want an EV with high ground clearance and good torque, an SUV. If I would ever get an EV. 

Yes, it does indeed take a long time to charge from 0-100%. That’s why no EV owner ever does that, contrary to what non-EV owners think.

[Cameroni]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think you should test drive a BYD Seal Performance and a Honda Accord.  You will probably be astounded.

 

If you're just going on major highways, you won't have an issue with charging stations and if you're going into the backwoods, just charge up before you do.  Most hotels now have a charging point too.  I have occasionally gone to Sukhothai and was surprised last week to find the hotels I normally use all have charging points.

 

Charging on the road is probably never going to be more than 30 minutes, and overnight charging is never 0-100%, so realistically 6 or 7 hours maximum.  It's really a non-issue.

 

I have driven the Honda Accord and it's good very fine handling. But the BYD Seal also looks very good on paper I must admit. Just the range thing, I mean why put up with that when you don't have to? And charging for 11 hours?  Okay, not to 100% but that kind of sounds sub-optimal.