ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Gweiloman]

7 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

When someone says 95% of their driving is free because they charge from excess solar; one would expect the solar system to already have achieved ROI. This is because every watt consumed carries cost until ROI is achieved. Only a dreamer would think otherwise. 

 

Our electric lift truck goes on charge at around 4pm each day. Its charger is connected to a phase with no export solar attached. At this time of the day consumption is low in the work sheds and solar is derating but I would never consider power going to the charger to be free from cost until ROI has been achieved around Dec this year.

If someone wishes to view their excess capacity as free from cost when charging an EV then why stop at the EV, throw a refrigerator or even an AC into the free mix.

You can not fool all of the people all of the time. If one wishes to spend ten hours each day monitoring EV topics and telling the world how much money they are saving, be sure to have all your ducks in a row.
 

No. I do understand where you’re coming from if you view your solar installation in terms,of ROI. In this case, the ROI is a moving target, the more you use, the quicker your ROI.

 

I view my installation as a capital investment that is amortised over a certain number of years. The amortisation is a fixed expense so I don’t worry about it anymore. Subsequently, not having any additional utilities expense (such as electricity to charge my car) is in my general ledger means it’s free, as far as I’m concerned.

 

Say you’re a gardener and you purchase a lawnmower. The more gardens you mow, the quicker you recover your cost. But this is not in line with GAAP. Your lawnmower has to be capitalised and depreciated and income you earn with your lawnmower goes into your P&L.

[Fruit Trader]

2 hours ago, atpeace said:

Wow, you are determined. I have free solar power available that if someone doesn't use will go to waste.  Derating, ROI, yada, yada, yada, and etc..,.  What are you going on about?  I fell asleep reading your post.

 

Lets keep it simple.  Between 10am and 4pm I usually have a lot of excess power that can be used by someone at no cost to me.  I could also use it if I had a EV and it would be basically free.  You can go on about derating and ROI but still doesn't change the fact that the EV (if I had) could be charging for free because solar pro

3 hours ago, atpeace said:

Wow, you are determined. I have free solar power available that if someone doesn't use will go to waste.  Derating, ROI, yada, yada, yada, and etc..,.  What are you going on about?  I fell asleep reading your post.

 

Lets keep it simple.  Between 10am and 4pm I usually have a lot of excess power that can be used by someone at no cost to me.  I could also use it if I had a EV and it would be basically free.  You can go on about derating and ROI but still doesn't change the fact that the EV (if I had) could be charging for free because solar produces excess power during certain parts of the day.

 

 

duces excess power during certain parts of the day.

 

 

 

Determined indeed.

 

None of the energy produced by a solar system is free from cost until ROI is achieved. It really is that simple and no amount of free surplus excess and waste talk will change this fact.

 

Inverters in a derated state will be capable of producing more than what is required. There is no surplus production that gets thrown down the drain. If you don't understand something ask rather than act like a child.

 

[Gweiloman]

1 minute ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

Determined indeed.

 

None of the energy produced by a solar system is free from cost until ROI is achieved. It really is that simple and no amount of free surplus excess and waste talk will change this fact.

 

Inverters in a derated state will be capable of producing more than what is required. There is no surplus production that gets thrown down the drain. If you don't understand something ask rather than act like a child.

 

Technically you are right that there is no surplus production but in reality, you are under utilising the system which is the same as throwing money down the drain. 

[Fruit Trader]

7 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Technically you are right that there is no surplus production but in reality, you are under utilising the system which is the same as throwing money down the drain. 

 

My argument is with those who invest in solar then claim EV charging is free from cost when using what they call surplus solar. It really is a fantasy world.
 

[Gweiloman]

4 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

My argument is with those who invest in solar then claim EV charging is free from cost when using what they call surplus solar. It really is a fantasy world.
 

I think either interpretation is correct, like Schrödinger’s cat.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I think either interpretation is correct, like Schrödinger’s cat.

 

 

The other way is to amortise the cost over it (or your) life expectancy.

[vinny41]

Cheap and efficient: hybrid cars gain favour in China as EVs stoke range anxiety

Hybrid cars made up 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries in mainland China in July, versus 34.3 per cent a year ago, according to industry data

Dealers said many buyers turned to hybrid cars on heightened concerns about rapid battery depletion in winter. Video clips showing dozens of EVs stuck in a snowstorm in central Hubei province during the Lunar New Year went viral in February, after their batteries ran out of juice.

The incident reinforced fears among car buyers that fully-electric cars are still not reliable for long-haul travel.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The other way is to amortise the cost over it (or your) life expectancy.

Over the useful life, offset with the investment value that you lose from the cost of the installation. 

 

I think solar panels are great, if I had decent access to my rood I would install as many as I could. 

[ExpatOilWorker]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Cheap and efficient: hybrid cars gain favour in China as EVs stoke range anxiety

Hybrid cars made up 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries in mainland China in July, versus 34.3 per cent a year ago, according to industry data

Dealers said many buyers turned to hybrid cars on heightened concerns about rapid battery depletion in winter. Video clips showing dozens of EVs stuck in a snowstorm in central Hubei province during the Lunar New Year went viral in February, after their batteries ran out of juice.

The incident reinforced fears among car buyers that fully-electric cars are still not reliable for long-haul travel.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

Fate (and consumer preferences) has it that we meet ♥️  like a happy family in the middle. 

You get a funny 😁 little battery and cute electric motor buried somewhere deep in the car, while we keep all the power of an ICE up front in the engine room 😊 😃 😀. 

[JBChiangRai]

14 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Cheap and efficient: hybrid cars gain favour in China as EVs stoke range anxiety

Hybrid cars made up 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries in mainland China in July, versus 34.3 per cent a year ago, according to industry data

Dealers said many buyers turned to hybrid cars on heightened concerns about rapid battery depletion in winter. Video clips showing dozens of EVs stuck in a snowstorm in central Hubei province during the Lunar New Year went viral in February, after their batteries ran out of juice.

The incident reinforced fears among car buyers that fully-electric cars are still not reliable for long-haul travel.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

 

Wasn't the electric viking saying that EV/PHEV had a 55% market share in China now?

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Wasn't the electric viking saying that EV/PHEV had a 55% market share in China now?

I don't think he provided a breakdown of number of EV vs Hybrid

Stronger demand for hybrid vehicles over pure EVs is not peculiar to China. They made up 60 per cent of new EV sales globally in May, according to data by research firm Autovista. Sales of hybrid and fully-electric cars in China make up about 65 per cent of sales globally.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

[Gweiloman]

43 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Cheap and efficient: hybrid cars gain favour in China as EVs stoke range anxiety

Hybrid cars made up 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries in mainland China in July, versus 34.3 per cent a year ago, according to industry data

Dealers said many buyers turned to hybrid cars on heightened concerns about rapid battery depletion in winter. Video clips showing dozens of EVs stuck in a snowstorm in central Hubei province during the Lunar New Year went viral in February, after their batteries ran out of juice.

The incident reinforced fears among car buyers that fully-electric cars are still not reliable for long-haul travel.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

It should be noted that the hybrid cars referred to in this article actually refers to PHEVs and not Toyota’s magical self charging hybrid.

 

I agree that PHEVs makes a lot of sense depending on one’s use case which is why I have both a PHEV and an EV. Bear in mind though that while PHEVs are the best of both worlds, it’s also the worse of both worlds (I bet the anti-EVers never thought an EV owner could be critical of their own purchasing choices).

[Gweiloman]

35 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Fate (and consumer preferences) has it that we meet ♥️  like a happy family in the middle. 

You get a funny 😁 little battery and cute electric motor buried somewhere deep in the car, while we keep all the power of an ICE up front in the engine room 😊 😃 😀. 

I would hardly consider my 34 kWh battery with a real world range of 160-180 km a little battery with a cute electric motor. The only time in the last few months my ICE ever kicked in is when I force it to, to recycle that rubbish substance in my petrol tank that works at 30-40% efficiency in propelling my vehicle down the road.

[motdaeng]

15 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

 

I agree that PHEVs makes a lot of sense depending on one’s use case which is why I have both a PHEV and an EV. Bear in mind though that while PHEVs are the best of both worlds, it’s also the worse of both worlds (I bet the anti-EVers never thought an EV owner could be critical of their own purchasing choices).

 

well said ... thank you!

[Gweiloman]

4 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

well sad ... thank you!

Well sad, or well said? Lol

[ExpatOilWorker]

53 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Wasn't the electric viking saying that EV/PHEV had a 55% market share in China now?

The chicken just gained a few extra feathers, from walking around the propaganda farm.

It was the cherry farmer that shared the 50% NEV (New Energy Vehicle) chart from China. 

[Cameroni]

6 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The chicken just gained a few extra feathers, from walking around the propaganda farm.

It was the cherry farmer that shared the 50% NEV (New Energy Vehicle) chart from China. 

You can't trust a word Sam Evans says. He's so far up the Electro rabbit hole any objective info that does not fit his EV agenda would hurt his YouTube viewing figures. He's just a Youtuber venting his private prejudice. 

[motdaeng]

6 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

You can't trust a word Sam Evans says. He's so far up the Electro rabbit hole any objective info that does not fit his EV agenda would hurt his YouTube viewing figures. He's just a Youtuber venting his private prejudice. 

 

a bit too harsh, but overall, i would agree with you on this one ...

[vinny41]

39 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

It should be noted that the hybrid cars referred to in this article actually refers to PHEVs and not Toyota’s magical self charging hybrid.

 

I agree that PHEVs makes a lot of sense depending on one’s use case which is why I have both a PHEV and an EV. Bear in mind though that while PHEVs are the best of both worlds, it’s also the worse of both worlds (I bet the anti-EVers never thought an EV owner could be critical of their own purchasing choices).

The Article clearly states 

"BYD, Volkswagen, Toyota and their peers sold 396,000 hybrid cars to mainland buyers in July, or 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries, according to data published by the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA). Their share increased from 34.3 per cent in the same month last year."

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

[Gweiloman]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The Article clearly states 

"BYD, Volkswagen, Toyota and their peers sold 396,000 hybrid cars to mainland buyers in July, or 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries, according to data published by the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA). Their share increased from 34.3 per cent in the same month last year."

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

The article also states:

Hybrid cars, which can run a short distance on battery and switch to fuel for longer drives, now account for almost half of new EV sales this year, with several producers revving up development and production to meet growing demand.

 

In case you didn’t know, these would be PHEVs, not hybrids as commonly understood.

BYD, Volkswagen, Toyota and their peers sold 396,000 hybrid cars to mainland buyers in July, or 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries

A hybrid such as the Prius or Camry cannot be classified as an EV. BYD manufactures PHEVs such as the Sealion that is coming to Thailand. Toyota manufactures the RAV4 Prime which is also a PHEV.

 

So, I believe the article is referring to PHEVs and not “self charging” hybrids like the Prius. Do you agree?

 

 

[Gweiloman]

Question for all. Should a PHEV be considered an EV or not?

[Yellowtail]

For what purpose? To use EV parking spots or subsidies or to count in EV sales?

[ExpatOilWorker]

18 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

a bit too harsh, but overall, i would agree with you on this one ...

Mr. Ant 🐜,  you are not a lost soul after all. There is a real human behind the shield 🛡. Nice!

[ExpatOilWorker]

17 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Question for all. Should a PHEV be considered an EV or not?

In Thailand 🇹🇭, NO!

Since the beginning of time BEVs are EVs in Thailand as far as our discussion,  DLT, autolife, etc.

PHEVs are sometimes grouped together with BEVs as NEVs or even more confusing electric cars.

[KhunLA]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Hence no price reductions on MG ZS petrol for the past 4 years

Also to note, 2022, they upgraded the 44kWh battery  to 50kWh, along with better LFP chemistry ... again, no price increase from 2020 to 2022 model upgrade.

 

Of course, add in (or subtract) the 240k incentive from the govt, which has also remained the same, while others models & makers have gone to 150k, even  to 100k on selected models.

 

Super sale now, if you can get some of the remaining stock, before the 2025 hits the auto shows / market.   Price should be interesting, but I wouldn't expect it to be more than discounted prices of late 869k or 829k.   Surely not the 599k super sale price.

 

Kind of hoping someone steals ours, so we get a new one, for no cost, or even better, Insurance company gives us a pay out, cash, and we snag a 599k one, with a bit of change in the pocket 

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Cheap and efficient: hybrid cars gain favour in China as EVs stoke range anxiety

Hybrid cars made up 45.1 per cent of total EV deliveries in mainland China in July, versus 34.3 per cent a year ago, according to industry data

Dealers said many buyers turned to hybrid cars on heightened concerns about rapid battery depletion in winter. Video clips showing dozens of EVs stuck in a snowstorm in central Hubei province during the Lunar New Year went viral in February, after their batteries ran out of juice.

The incident reinforced fears among car buyers that fully-electric cars are still not reliable for long-haul travel.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3276389/cheap-and-efficient-hybrid-cars-gain-favour-china-evs-stoke-range-anxiety

Of all the EV only car manufacturers, only Tesla is doing well.

Tesla

Rivian Auto

VinFast

Li Auto

Nio Inc.

Xpeng Inc.

Lucid Group

 

Hybrid is the future.

[ExpatOilWorker]

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

That's a good topic, and they make them, or DIY.   Stated a few times, I'd go the E-RV route if ever returned to USA.   I few high tech solar panels producing 3 or 4 kWh an hour would work nicely keeping battery charged up enough to live in.  If conservation, and weather cooperating.

 

Keeps on crossing my mind here, till I come back to reality, as a bungalow with a view in nakhon nowhere is too inexpensive.  If younger, I'd definitely do a DIY E-RV, but would be silly waste of money at near 70 yrs old.

Sleeping in an EV might not be such a good idea after all.

 

[atpeace]

3 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

Determined indeed.

 

None of the energy produced by a solar system is free from cost until ROI is achieved. It really is that simple and no amount of free surplus excess and waste talk will change this fact.

 

Inverters in a derated state will be capable of producing more than what is required. There is no surplus production that gets thrown down the drain. If you don't understand something ask rather than act like a child.

 

OK, you are obviously a nutter.  Not a problem - I enjoy your goofy posts. 

 

Please explain how my inverter is being derated has ANYTHING to do with using the excess solar to charge my a friends car or for that matter my car.  My inverter seems quite happy and I don't get the impression it is in a derated state.  It definitely isn't in a derated state when it is charging a car with its extra capacity.  What a silly concept you have tried to use to make a point that really isn't that important in the first place. Your logic should be derated...

 

 BTW, do you understand the concept of fixed and variable costs?  Doubt it but just asking.  Rant on about derating and whatever floats your boat. Then again I could start charging friends a derating fee when they plug in.  What would be fare price for the this this excess solar I'm not using?  

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Sleeping in an EV might not be such a good idea after all.

Wow ... you are actually on topic ... accidently of course.  Let's open that can of worms.

 

How many people died while in the EV, non moving, sleeping, camping, or what ever ?   And no, didn't bother searching as probably extremely low.

 

In just the USA ...

... "In 2022, 1,244 people in the US died from carbon monoxide poisoning, according to provisional CDC data. Of those deaths, 624 were accidental and 579 were suicides."

 

I await your fake #s, or silly vid, meme, BS 

[HighPriority]

13 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Clearly forum members are concerned about price reductions

one forum member told MG that they could take their cyberster to where the sun doesn't shine becase they refused to provide him with a price reduction guarantee

There was a news article recently where over 50+ Byd owners want Byd to buy back their vehicles due to the huge price reduction

 

So clearly people are concerned about EV price reductions

On the MG ZS it clear why MG have only reduced the price of the MG ZS as replacement model will be announced either in the December 2024 motor show or the March 2025 motor show

MG ZS petrol registrations for the past 19 months January 1st 2023  to 31st July 2024 4,122

MG ZS EV registrations for the same period 2,074

Hence no price reductions on MG ZS petrol for the past 4 years

So, you’re having air for breakfast then…? 🤣

 

In real terms, almost every manufactured item is cheaper each year, advances in tech, more efficient assembly lines, economy of scale, Yarda Yarda…

 

If you’re “scared” to buy an ev don’t, but also don’t wade around telling everyone who either has bought or is thinking of buying that the sky is falling.