Is there any reason to own a car here if you are living in a city?

[giddyup]

3 hours ago, JensenZ said:

Having riden motorcycles for 25 years in Australia and NZ, and another 20 years in SE Asia, I would say it is safer here.

 

It might be hard for people like you with blinders on who only view statistics to understand this.

 

First point, I have always ridden auto scooters here, whereas in Australia I had gears and clutch. The difference in safety is like night and day.

 

Second point, knowing how traffic and other motorcyclists behave in Pattaya (and of course other areas) means I'm always on the alert. I always expect Thais to jump red lights, ride up one way streets, cut in front of me, pass me on the right when I indicate to turn right, possibly rear end me at stop lights, etc etc etc. I ride in a semi-nervous state at all times and watch my rear view mirrors nearly as much as looking ahead. Having had some bad accidents in the past (all in Australia), I know what it feels like to hit the tarmac and try my best to avoid it.

 

By contrast, in Australia, I go into a chilled out state of awareness where I might not see a danger heading my way. Living in Pattaya, with all the congestion, my speed is also much lower than it would be in Australia.

Second highest death rate for vehicle accidents in the world, and yet it's safer here? And I'm the one with blinders on.

[The Hammer2021]

10 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I bet you are a man of means, what, with your luxury SUV  !!!! ????

 

 

Yes... four wheels are safer than two.....   riding a motorcycle in the day time wearing a helmet while not smashed up on Lao-Khao is also safer than the stats would indicate....

 

There is a huge convenience to any ‘personal means of mobility’ be it motorcycle or car, or both to be used as and when preferable.... 

 

Is a ‘personal means of mobility’ *(car or motorcycle) necessary in a city like Bangkok - absolutely not....  But life is better and easier with the option and not be forced to use taxi’s all the time.

 

 

An interesting point of view and practical of course. But if we perceive 'choosing' a taxi as being 'forced' we might consider by using a taxi I am not 'forced' to find a parking place. Not forced to make decisions about routes, or make decisions about  rushing a traffic light, or forced to wait for petrol, or required to check oil or tyres etc etc. Of course this is all dependent on a decent taxi service  being available! And other decent public transport  options being around. I noticed 25 years ago  in wealthy  Singapore where public transport was very good car ownership seemed low..

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Second highest death rate for vehicle accidents in the world, and yet it's safer here? And I'm the one with blinders on.

I actually agree, and feel safer here than in USA, riding a scooter.  Possibly because people are more aware of scooters here, because there are so many.  And most give them space, as probably owned and drove one themselves.

 

Where in USA, quite the opposite, few respect or gave them space, as simply ignorant, since so few drive them there.  Driven about 20 yrs in USA, and 20+ years here.  Feel same about a car, as been hit a few times in the USA, and never here.

 

On Topic;  really is hard to justify the expense & hassle of car ownership, if no real need to drive it.  Easily 6-10k baht a month for the convenience.  Initial cost / loan, insurance, petrol & maintenance.  And parking in a big city or small .. no thanks.

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by KhunLA

[richard_smith237]

10 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I actually agree, and feel safer here than in USA, riding a scooter.  Possibly because people are more aware of scooters here, because there are so many.  And most give them space, as probably owned and drove one themselves.

 

Where in USA, quite the opposite, few respect or gave them space, as simply ignorant, since so few drive them there.  Driven about 20 yrs in USA, and 20+ years here.  Feel same about a car, as been hit a few times in the USA, and never here.

Agree.... same in the UK. 

I feel motorcycles are simply far less visible...  people are just not as used to having to be extra cautious of the idiot under-taking when turning, over-taking when turning etc....

 

From that facet alone, the other nutters and idiots make it safer for the rest of us (when riding a motorcycle) because it makes the other riders and car drivers more aware of us !

 

 

10 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

On Topic;  really is hard to justify the expense & hassle of car ownership, if no real need to drive it.  Easily 6-10k baht a month for the convenience.  Initial cost / loan, insurance, petrol & maintenance.  And parking in a big city or small .. no thanks.

 

So its a cost thing rather than a convenience thing ???

 

I wonder if having a car saves us money..... probably not... But neither does eating decent food, living in a nicer house, going on holidays etc....  its not all about cost, its about standard of living and having a car improves the standard of living for the convenience factor.....

 

Some may argue its not convenient to have a car.... well... on the occasions it may not be we have the freedom to use a taxi to the BTS and use that... and we do do that, but its once or twice per year.... or when we’ve parked up at Gateway or Emporium we take the BTS up to Siam, or in the past to Chatuchak etc etc... otherwise driving is always easier and nearly always quicker. 

 

Note: I really do not find the BTS convenient - by the time I’ve used a taxi to the BTS, used the BTS and got a taxi from the BTS, I could have just driven there (general destination).

 

 

 

 

[Guest Isaanlife]

8 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

It's a good reason to own a car. But presumably the duty is boring and onerous. Driving  long distances is really tedious and tiresome. Also there is the constant  need to be alert, be awake to be in effect working.

Some people like driving and being able to get out and about on their own.

[Guest Isaanlife]

7 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Yes I understand all the reason especially if you have kids but I disagree about the big shop. I do a big shop and I use a very cheap taxi. I don't need a car for that. Next month I'm travelling from Pattaya to lopburi but I will hire a driver..as I do for all my travelling around Thailand. I read a book, snooze, look at the scenery, play with phone, watch a movie etc etc.  I guess it's a matter of perception but I just don't need a car..I am strict about drink driving so I never could use a  car if eating out or drinking. Now we have BOLT taxis here in Pattaya there is no excuse for drinking and driving and for me no reason to drive at all.

Let's be honest?

 

Can you afford a new car?

[richard_smith237]

8 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

But presumably the duty is boring and onerous. Driving  long distances is really tedious and tiresome. Also there is the constant  need to be alert, be awake to be in effect working.

This touches on the very reason to have a car here....

 

Drive myself, or rely on someone who Frankly, is commonly rather dumb ?......  (some may not appreciate that comment and it may strike a nerve - but the average Thai taxi driver is not as switched on as my Wife, or I)........   Driving ourselves is safer because we know we will be alert and be awake. 

 

As far as the tedious part.....   when driving any distance, unless I’ve had a few too many the night before, I drive because it makes the journey go more quickly. I cant sit and watch a movie as I would on a plane because I’m not a great passenger and still want to keep my eyes on the road. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Isaanlife]

5 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Yes a Thai girl hinted at this to me but I just explained I thought driving  myself was low class and that wealthy people always  used chauffeurs..and gardeners, and cleaners...lol

If you owned a house, you would see a need for a vehicle.

[The Hammer2021]

16 minutes ago, Isaanlife said:

Some people like driving and being able to get out and about on their own.

Yes. Of course.  But does that require full time ownership of a car all year round and all that it entails? I estimate that with some of my friends their cars are out of use 80% of the time. But just  because we like to  drive  alone sometimes is not the same as needing to own a car. And I suspect that for all the time we enjoy our cars  equally we have negative feeling with breakdowns, maintenance, costs, traffic jams etc.

[JensenZ]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

Second highest death rate for vehicle accidents in the world, and yet it's safer here? And I'm the one with blinders on.

Absolutely you have blinders on. You continue to quote statistics blindly, suggesting that statistics are evidence of an individual's risk and that all things are equal.

 

If you look at a statistical chart, you'll find what they call standard deviations. An individual's risk has many factors. Put simply, there's a big difference in the way individuals drive/ride. Suggesting my risk is determined by your statistical charts and that my risk is equal to a teenage kid riding 3 up with his buddies is absurd, if not insulting. Even insurance companies know this and take age into consideration when quoting.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

48 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

So its a cost thing rather than a convenience thing ???

Cost not an issue for myself, but surely it is for many, vs a scooter or public trans.  When I'm at Bangkok, I rarely drive my car there.  Parking or lack of, more the reason than any other.  

 

If living there, unless wanting for the convenience of out & abouts, car ownership is an expensive convenience, and hard to justify, cost per kms.  

 

I've had the e-scooter for about 3 months now, and don't think I've put 1000 kms on the car since.  

Cost 700k over 10yrs (no loan or interest) = 5833 a month + 1000 insurance (at least).

6800 X 3 = 20,400, before any petrol or maintenance & wear and tear.  Not exactly the cheapest convenience item to have.  Month's salary for a local @ 300 baht a day.

 

Actually don't even need the e-scooter, as 7-11 is < 200 m away, Makro < 500 m away, even the surf is only < 1.5 kms away, so can walk, ride bicycle or e-bike to any of them.  Free or minimal cost.  And I'm in a small town.  No real public trans here, where Bangkok offers more of everything needed.

 

Patts has the baht buses, that loop around, close to anything that's needed.

Edited January 16, 2022 by KhunLA

[The Hammer2021]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

This touches on the very reason to have a car here....

 

Drive myself, or rely on someone who Frankly, is commonly rather dumb ?......  (some may not appreciate that comment and it may strike a nerve - but the average Thai taxi driver is not as switched on as my Wife, or I)........   Driving ourselves is safer because we know we will be alert and be awake. 

 

As far as the tedious part.....   when driving any distance, unless I’ve had a few too many the night before, I drive because it makes the journey go more quickly. I cant sit and watch a movie as I would on a plane because I’m not a great passenger and still want to keep my eyes on the road. 

 

 

 

 

I have no interest in this thread  being used to promote negative  stereotypes about Thai  drivers. I choose good drivers of course. Equally I won't drive with bad drivers  whatever their nationality wherever I am.  I got  rid off a Thai driver once but Equally I have  foreign friends I refuse to drive with because they are lousy drivers. But I have found professional  drivers who know their vehicle  and know the roads to be most reliable. This is based on decades of experience in numbers of countries. I have  no reason to believe you are a better driver than Thais just because you say-so or believe so. Please desist from pursuing this line of argument.

[JensenZ]

12 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Yes. Of course.  But does that require full time ownership of a car all year round and all that it entails? I estimate that with some of my friends their cars are out of use 80% of the time. But just  because we like to  drive  alone sometimes is not the same as needing to own a car. And I suspect that for all the time we enjoy our cars  equally we have negative feeling with breakdowns, maintenance, costs, traffic jams etc.

Some of my neighbours in Pattaya have cars, but don't use them much - mostly take out their scooters. Most car owners I know in Pattaya have both. The car is a status symbol to impress the ladies, and the motorcycle is for transport. Before anyone responds, be sure to understand this is in Pattaya Central area. If I lived on the Dark Side, I'd probably like to own a car, but I don't live out there because I don't want a car.

Edited January 16, 2022 by JensenZ

[The Hammer2021]

11 minutes ago, Isaanlife said:

If you owned a house, you would see a need for a vehicle.

I own property! I don't own a car. I am happy for people to  own cars. I think cars can represent  freedom. My point is that many people, in cities here in Thailand, especially single people don't really need to own  cars. They buy them as an automatic  reflex  but could live, possibly  better without them. I definitely  think the drink driving  is an issue that has to be taken into consideration too. I have friends who set out to go out drinking in their  cars! They seem to proud  to get a cheap taxi. They think its weird to go to a bar or a set of bars in taxi. They think  it's normal to jump in the car and return home drunk. I find that quite  disturbing actually.

[dj230]

2 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

That's how I feel. It seems like owning a car is just a series of tasks and hassles

I think the only way I would ever want to own a car in Bangkok is if I had a job that required one. Like if I was a taxi driver 

Edited January 16, 2022 by dj230

[The Hammer2021]

9 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Some of my neighbours in Pattaya have cars, but don't use them much - mostly take out their scooters. Most car owners I know in Pattaya have both. The car is a status symbol to impress the ladies, and the motorcycle is for transport. Before anyone responds, be sure to understand this is in Pattaya Central area. If I lived on the Dark Side, I'd probably like to own a car, but I don't live out there because I don't want a car.

Yeah there is a lot of truth in what you observe but since BOLT started even travelling back and forwards to the dark side is cheap. But I am a quite a heavy drinker so would always plan my transport arrangements around this fact. Going out on the lash with my motor would just spoil the night's drinking  for me. The other issue is that I walk a lot. Walking a mile or so is no big deal to me drunk or sober and I find I get to know cities  better by walking around them.

[The Hammer2021]

2 minutes ago, dj230 said:

I think the only way I would ever want to own a car in Bangkok is if I had a job that required one. Like if I was a taxi driver lol 

I know what  you mean. Why drive unless it makes  you money. I met an Aussie  guy recently  who had bought a tuk tuk for fun..I didn't have the heart to tell him how much agro it could cause him with the Bill.

[richard_smith237]

18 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Yes. Of course.  But does that require full time ownership of a car all year round and all that it entails? I estimate that with some of my friends their cars are out of use 80% of the time. But just  because we like to  drive  alone sometimes is not the same as needing to own a car. And I suspect that for all the time we enjoy our cars  equally we have negative feeling with breakdowns, maintenance, costs, traffic jams etc.

Cost vs convenience...

 

Cost of car, insurance, petrol, maintenance etc...  Fair enough - all can be balanced against the costs of using a taxi regularly and then the convenience of not having to use a taxi and all that it entails....

 

But... Traffic Jams ?.....  how do you handle a traffic Jam if in a taxi ???  (And not near the BTS).

 

————

 

Cost of ownership....

 

2 Million baht car... 4 years, depreciation to 1 million baht.

So... 250,000 per year.

+ insurance = 280,000 per year.

= +/-23,000 per month + 1000 baht petrol per week..

 

= 27,000 per month to own & drive a car.

 

————

 

Taxi’s.

 

School run: 20km 250 baht per journey (there and back twice per day)

= 20,000 per month

 

other taxi’s per week..... +/- 500 baht 

 

————

From very Rough calcs...

 

Owning a car is 5000 per month more expensive. 

170 baht per day more.

 

 

10 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I have no interest in this thread  being used to promote negative  stereotypes about Thai  drivers.

Fair enough - but when taking taxis each and every day instead of driving ourselves - safety and standards are an unavoidable facet of the discussion....  We cannot choose or guarantee a safe and smart taxi driver every journey. 

 

It is quite often taxis do not have seatbelts in the rear - something I’ve very uncomfortable with.

 

When choosing to rely on our own vehicle or public transport the ‘negative stereotype’ of Taxi drivers in Thailand is unavoidable and from a personal perspective an important aspect of such a decision process.

 

10 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I choose good drivers of course.

That’s an impossibility with taxi’s... we dont know until we are in the vehicle. 

 

10 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Equally I won't drive with bad drivers  whatever their nationality wherever I am.  I got  rid off a Thai driver once but Equally I have  foreign friends I refuse to drive with because they are lousy drivers. But I have found professional  drivers who know their vehicle  and know the roads to be most reliable. This is based on decades of experience in numbers of countries. I have  no reason to believe you are a better driver than Thais just because you say-so or believe so.

My Wife who is Thai is also a very good driver and much safer than the vast majority of Taxi drivers I’ve witnessed.

 

While you would like to ‘cherry pick’ the discussion, the safety aspect is not specifically ‘anti-Thai’ its that those who drive all day for a living in Thailand are often careless with vehicles that aren’t quite up to safety-scratch.

 

I am of course not a safer or better driver than all Thai drivers, I have not said that. 

What I will attest to is that I am a more alert and a safer driver than the vast majority of Thai Taxi drivers I have witnessed which is why the choice drive myself, my family and especially my son considers such. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Please desist from pursuing this line of argument.

Your topic is [Is there any reason to own a car here if you are living in a city?]

 

Safety is a good enough reason for me.....  regardless of your wokeism about any perceived slight against Thai drivers.....   Many Thai’s themselves would present the same argument....

 

Of course, the argument is multifaceted and also involves convenience for and cost against.

 

But... to ignore safety also ignores reality when discussions vehicle ownership in Thailand... If this discussion involves Singapore or Japan, the safety aspect is less significant. 

 

 

[cdemundo]

9 hours ago, giddyup said:

Statistics would prove you wrong.

I know stats on road safety in Thailand are terrible.

Statistics apply to populations and the population of drivers/riders in Thailand is not uniform.

Really, farang drivers/riders are a sub-population with much more favorable outcomes than Thais.

Even still, your point is well-taken, Thai roads are dangerous.

[Guest Isaanlife]

1 hour ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I own property! I don't own a car. I am happy for people to  own cars. I think cars can represent  freedom. My point is that many people, in cities here in Thailand, especially single people don't really need to own  cars. They buy them as an automatic  reflex  but could live, possibly  better without them. I definitely  think the drink driving  is an issue that has to be taken into consideration too. I have friends who set out to go out drinking in their  cars! They seem to proud  to get a cheap taxi. They think its weird to go to a bar or a set of bars in taxi. They think  it's normal to jump in the car and return home drunk. I find that quite  disturbing actually.

2 sides to that argument are the non drinkers and the amount of Thai's getting killed every new years.

 

Taxi drivers are far from professionally qualified drivers and have their own issues with drugs, falling asleep on long trips etc.

 

Anyone that goes out and knowingly drinks and drives is just not a smart person. But you cannot blame the car because the car isn't making the decision.

 

I think a single person living in Bangkok that already had their place furnished could get by with no car quite easy. 

 

Finding a place to park in BKK is a nightmare in itself.

[Guest Isaanlife]

1 hour ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I own property! I don't own a car. I am happy for people to  own cars. I think cars can represent  freedom. My point is that many people, in cities here in Thailand, especially single people don't really need to own  cars. They buy them as an automatic  reflex  but could live, possibly  better without them. I definitely  think the drink driving  is an issue that has to be taken into consideration too. I have friends who set out to go out drinking in their  cars! They seem to proud  to get a cheap taxi. They think its weird to go to a bar or a set of bars in taxi. They think  it's normal to jump in the car and return home drunk. I find that quite  disturbing actually.

No person buys a car as an automatic reflex, sorry.

 

People buy cars because their own personal needs to have a car, which can be many any various.

 

Some people don't even have money for a VISA without using an agent.

 

A car is a huge expense in Thailand and for people the own cars, the need is more important than the cost.

[Guest Isaanlife]

2 hours ago, JensenZ said:

Some of my neighbours in Pattaya have cars, but don't use them much - mostly take out their scooters. Most car owners I know in Pattaya have both. The car is a status symbol to impress the ladies, and the motorcycle is for transport. Before anyone responds, be sure to understand this is in Pattaya Central area. If I lived on the Dark Side, I'd probably like to own a car, but I don't live out there because I don't want a car.

What impresses the ladies is CASH, not a car.

[Guest Isaanlife]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I actually agree, and feel safer here than in USA, riding a scooter.  Possibly because people are more aware of scooters here, because there are so many.  And most give them space, as probably owned and drove one themselves.

 

Where in USA, quite the opposite, few respect or gave them space, as simply ignorant, since so few drive them there.  Driven about 20 yrs in USA, and 20+ years here.  Feel same about a car, as been hit a few times in the USA, and never here.

 

On Topic;  really is hard to justify the expense & hassle of car ownership, if no real need to drive it.  Easily 6-10k baht a month for the convenience.  Initial cost / loan, insurance, petrol & maintenance.  And parking in a big city or small .. no thanks.

 

You have to question anyone that questions the ownership of a car due to financial reasons?

 

Is it because they cannot afford to own one?

 

The only people that ever complain like this are the ones that don't own a car or can't afford one?

 

 

[Ralf001]

7 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Point taken but if 'commuting' to you means a 200km trip then consider relocation. I used to work in Brighton but live in London. I tried both driving and the train. In the end the train was far preferable, having a beer on the way home reading the newspapers on the way in. Driving was pretty miserable as a daily routine.

The wife will not allow a relocation, besides I dont really want to anyways.

 

Drive home is a two cans of leo with my fav tunes playing on youtube. I enjoy the time alone.

[scubascuba3]

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I would agree for cities such as Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, it is much easier to get around on a scooter, and I do.

 

Having said that, I need a car to travel to my GF's village, and also haul my golf clubs around. I don't fancy my chances trying to balance a golf bag and drive a scooter simultaneously.

 

There is also the age factor. Eyesight, balance and reflexes inevitably deteriorate, and at some point it will be much safer for me to be on four wheels.

a golf bag on the back seat and using a double strap is surprisingly stable, only thing to be careful with is the width so limited filtering

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, Isaanlife said:

No person buys a car as an automatic reflex, sorry.

 

There is a script in Thailand, find a girlfriend\wife pay her a monthly wage, buy a pickup, build a house in Issan, not all in that order

[dj230]

 

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

Some may argue its not convenient to have a car.... well... on the occasions it may not be we have the freedom to use a taxi to the BTS and use that... and we do do that, but its once or twice per year.... or when we’ve parked up at Gateway or Emporium we take the BTS up to Siam, or in the past to Chatuchak etc etc... otherwise driving is always easier and nearly always quicker. 

 

Note: I really do not find the BTS convenient - by the time I’ve used a taxi to the BTS, used the BTS and got a taxi from the BTS, I could have just driven there (general destination).

 

 

 

 

I've owned a car in Canada, and it's been much more convenient to just take taxi's here considering how cheap they are, no need to drive, just sit and wait.

Do people take taxi's to the BTS in Bangkok? I found the BTS/public transit to be almost the same price as a taxi so I never have taken it before. 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by dj230

[EVENKEEL]

8 hours ago, JensenZ said:

So you didn't actually buy a car and were too cheap to buy a motorcycle, but now that you found a Thai partner with a car, you're happy.

 

Good for you!

 

Do you have any idea how insane your last comment is? You think it's fun to terrorize cyclists on the road with your car? I can't express here how uncool that is. I respect anyone getting out on a bicycle for exercise, and give them wide birth. I have an old friend with a very f****ked up shoulder due to some idiot in a car knocking him off his bicycle... could it have been you?

Problem is many times there's no room for a wide berth, 

[JensenZ]

2 hours ago, Isaanlife said:

Anyone that goes out and knowingly drinks and drives is just not a smart person. But you cannot blame the car because the car isn't making the decision.

 

I think a single person living in Bangkok that already had their place furnished could get by with no car quite easy.

I don't think it has much to do with intelligence, and more to do with responsibility. Knowingly drinking then driving is a crime and reprehensible.

 

I don't understand why it would matter to a person without a car if their place was furnished or not. All furniture suppliers have a delivery service... and how would a car owner carry a kingsize bed, dininig room table or refrigerator in their boot or back seat?

Edited January 16, 2022 by JensenZ

[JensenZ]

2 hours ago, Isaanlife said:

23 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Problem is many times there's no room for a wide berth, 

 

Just be patient If you're on a narrow road. Frightening a cyclist can cause him to crash... not funny at all.