Education inequality – The state school teachers’ dilemma

[Bruno123]

I certainly learned about programming starting from chalk on a blackboard.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Bruno123 said:

I certainly learned about programming starting from chalk on a blackboard.

How long ago was that and how long before you had to actually demonstrate your new found learning on a computer rather than a blackboard.

[86Tiger]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Disagree,

Technology is generally a distraction from education.

All you need to educate children is decent text books for the kids and a blackboard with chalk for the teachers.

 

 

I go with this.

 

Technology is a tool and can be beneficial.  However, one must still  read, comprehend what is read and do arithmetic.  All needed for these skills is books, pencils and paper.  If you can't read doesn't matter what technology you have.

 

 

[Flink]

6 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Why limit the greater knowledge to be gained through the use of technology. Having taught during the technological revolution, while I could tach history by the means you state, I could make history much more interesting for students having today's access to broader resources via computers/internet. I have certainly been impressed with Thailand's wide availability of internet access.

6 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Why limit the greater knowledge to be gained through the use of technology. Having taught during the technological revolution, while I could tach history by the means you state, I could make history much more interesting for students having today's access to broader resources via computers/internet. I have certainly been impressed with Thailand's wide availability of internet access.

Hmm, not such a "wide availabilty" where I teach. They only managed to get projectors into the classrooms 3 months ago, bring your own computer. They provided HDMI cables and remotes for the projectors, which were quickly commandeered by the Thai teachers so now I carry a ling stick and my own HDMI cable. That resolves the media problems, however, with no WiFi or LAN I have to depend on my phone as a hotspot if I want to bring up anything on the internet. (major issue right now as we're teaching even numbered students in class and odd numbers online at the same time!)

With or without the technology, with the best will in the world, and all the enthusiasm in the world, if the kids don't feel the need to learn (as they know they'll pass anyway) there's little you can do but play lucky numbers when it comes to faking the grades at the end of term.

 

[Bruno123]

24 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

How long ago was that and how long before you had to actually demonstrate your new found learning on a computer rather than a blackboard.

You are asking leading questions my friend; gleaned only to get the answers that you imagine will bolster the point of view that you already have. That's not learning ????

 

When you begin from the rudiments, you really UNDERSTAND the subject. One thing that I have learned about students who start with computers, rather than the basic rudiments, is that they cannot explain the basic rudiments. Because they are already starting from templates already made for them.

 

Blackboard and chalk takes you back to a place where you actually had to understand what you were doing in the first place.

 

A bit like my cycle training. I start on a decrepit old bike with heavy gears and cycle uphill as much as possible without changing gears. They ones who started on nice new slick bikes have to give up when faced with me when I move up to a half decent bike.

 

I learned to program before I even touched a PC.

[NobbyClarke]

I have every TEFL/TESOL certificate imaginable, 30 years of teaching experience including Thailand, however, I do not have a degree making it impossible for me to teach in Thailand again.

I would gladly give my time and energy along with my experience for free, again an impossibility..

Something needs to change for the sake of the Thai children.

[Bkk Brian]

19 minutes ago, Bruno123 said:

You are asking leading questions my friend; gleaned only to get the answers that you imagine will bolster the point of view that you already have. That's not learning ????

 

When you begin from the rudiments, you really UNDERSTAND the subject. One thing that I have learned about students who start with computers, rather than the basic rudiments, is that they cannot explain the basic rudiments. Because they are already starting from templates already made for them.

 

Blackboard and chalk takes you back to a place where you actually had to understand what you were doing in the first place.

 

A bit like my cycle training. I start on a decrepit old bike with heavy gears and cycle uphill as much as possible without changing gears. They ones who started on nice new slick bikes have to give up when faced with me when I move up to a half decent bike.

 

I learned to program before I even touched a PC.

You missed the string of my point which is that tech is essential to prepare a student for real life. A blackboard and books alone can teach the basic core subjects especially in a third or developing world. However if Thailand is aspiring for developed world status then they need the tools to do that. I.T. provides and facilitates that process.

 

As for you learning coding on a blackboard with no computer to test the process....lol. A bit like learning to ride a bike with no bike to try out the results.

[Bruno123]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

You missed the string of my point which is that tech is essential to prepare a student for real life. A blackboard and books alone can teach the basic core subjects especially in a third or developing world. However if Thailand is aspiring for developed world status then they need the tools to do that. I.T. provides and facilitates that process.

 

As for you learning coding on a blackboard with no computer to test the process....lol. A bit like learning to ride a bike with no bike to try out the results.

 

I didn't miss anything. Yours is just a theory from the top of your head and nothing to do with real life.

 

Real life? Which of those kids is sitting in a penthouse right now? 

There is a big difference between being familiar with technology and understanding the rudiments behind the technology.

If you join in the middle, you are just following someone else's path.

 

Many musician's practice without instruments. A good teacher can make any subject understandable. I agree with BritManToo; start with pencil and paper. Learn the rudiments.

If you don't, you might just turn out to be a worker bee or a follower.

 

[Bruno123]

I went into a Tesco Lotus 'convenience' shop the other day. Picked something up for 26.25 baht. Gave the boy 50 + 7 baht. He gave me 30 baht back. I asked where is my 75 satang? ????

He scratched his head and looked at the receipt and scratched his head again. This went on for at least thirty seconds. I said never mind and took my things. Not at all upset.

Of course I did not care about the 75 satang. I simply could not understand how, with the help of the till telling him exactly what he should give me, that he managed to fail in such a simple task. 

It wasn't his first mistake. The day before he priced the grapes I had chosen incorrectly and charged me nearly double the price for grapes that they did not even have in stock. His female colleague had to fix that for him. He went outside to play on his phone. I'm sure he knows how to do all kinds of tricks on his phone.

 

Lack of technology is not the issue here.

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Bruno123 said:

 

I didn't miss anything. Yours is just a theory from the top of your head and nothing to do with real life.

 

Real life? Which of those kids is sitting in a penthouse right now? 

There is a big difference between being familiar with technology and understanding the rudiments behind the technology.

If you join in the middle, you are just following someone else's path.

 

Many musician's practice without instruments. A good teacher can make any subject understandable. I agree with BritManToo; start with pencil and paper. Learn the rudiments.

If you don't, you might just turn out to be a worker bee or a follower.

 

Hardly a theory in my head but a proven evidence based  curriculum, in this case for many international schools here, the Cambridge curriculum. This comprises of international standard teaching in the core subjects of Maths, Science, English, Computer Science, in fact the whole range to ICGSE standard external tests followed by A level external tests and entry to some of the best Universities in the world.

 

I've had one daughter in the UK who went through it a doing very well and one son who moved here and is now an accounts manager for a large company here in Phuket already go down this route. My younger daughter is now in year 9 here learning the core subjects as well as the more advanced tech ones.

 

Like I said if Thailand wants to aspire to being a developed country their education currently sucks, a blackboard, chalk and books are not enough.

 

"The shortcomings of Thailand's education system have again been exposed by international education rankings, with Thai students scoring well below global averages in core subjects, namely mathematics, science and literacy."

 

https://www.cola.kku.ac.th/colakkuarticle/index.php/101-global-tests-expose-reality-of-thai-schools-daniel-maxwell-peerasit-kamnuansilpa

Edited January 18, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[dinsdale]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Agree. For just one example. There is a national shortage of coders in the UK. My daughter here in an International school has carried out many robotic coding projects and developed some basic apps. Most good International schools provide these basic introductions into real world benefits. Not something that can be achieved with chalk and a blackboard.

Agree. Unfortunately some are stuck in their ways both teachers and people who comment on this. I remember in the early 70's I think it was overhead projectors and wheeling in TVs and this was great. Made learning more interesting. Blackboards and coloured chalk was invented in the 19th Century. Technology is now essential to learning. Kids are digital natives and not using or being able to use tech for learning is just rediculous e.g. teach the huge volcanic eruption off Samoa with chalk on a blackboard or actually show the footage. Which would be more engaging? Which would students learn more from.

Edited January 18, 2022 by dinsdale

[dinsdale]

4 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

I certainly learned about programming starting from chalk on a blackboard.

Well now it's smart boards. Not in Govt schools of course because many pockets must be filled. Stop corruption. Improve education. Very simple.

 

[Hammerite]

 Childrens educational results are generally more dependent on the support  and attitude  of the parents than on the quality of teaching or facilities or the amount  of money spent.

Not sure what this says about Thailand!!!

Maybe  good jobs being reserved  for those with connections has something to do  with it?

[ikke1959]

6 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Agree. For just one example. There is a national shortage of coders in the UK. My daughter here in an International school has carried out many robotic coding projects and developed some basic apps. Most good International schools provide these basic introductions into real world benefits. Not something that can be achieved with chalk and a blackboard.

it is not about international schools, but the normal Thai schools where the biggest problems are and the most kids go... International schools are for the wealthier Thais and expats, so please don't mix things up. Math , Thai and English, reading and writing can perfectly done by blackboard and chalk. Many of us who got taught in our youth did not have a computer or Tv in the classroom, but they are able to calculate, read, and write ... 

[Bruno123]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hardly a theory in my head but a proven evidence based  curriculum, in this case for many international schools here, the Cambridge curriculum. This comprises of international standard teaching in the core subjects of Maths, Science, English, Computer Science, in fact the whole range to ICGSE standard external tests followed by A level external tests and entry to some of the best Universities in the world.

 

I've had one daughter in the UK who went through it a doing very well and one son who moved here and is now an accounts manager for a large company here in Phuket already go down this route. My younger daughter is now in year 9 here learning the core subjects as well as the more advanced tech ones.

 

Like I said if Thailand wants to aspire to being a developed country their education currently sucks, a blackboard, chalk and books are not enough.

 

"The shortcomings of Thailand's education system have again been exposed by international education rankings, with Thai students scoring well below global averages in core subjects, namely mathematics, science and literacy."

 

https://www.cola.kku.ac.th/colakkuarticle/index.php/101-global-tests-expose-reality-of-thai-schools-daniel-maxwell-peerasit-kamnuansilpa

 

Perhaps we are arguing at cross purposes. I am not arguing against technology. 

I too am referring to the quality of the education. 

Technology did not help the boy who lost my 75 satang. There are other ways to make lessons more interesting than wheeling out a TV. They didn't have them in centuries before. 

My education required everyone to know how to use an abacus. The basics. 

People are becoming more 'dumb'.

[Bkk Brian]

16 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

it is not about international schools, but the normal Thai schools where the biggest problems are and the most kids go... International schools are for the wealthier Thais and expats, so please don't mix things up. Math , Thai and English, reading and writing can perfectly done by blackboard and chalk. Many of us who got taught in our youth did not have a computer or Tv in the classroom, but they are able to calculate, read, and write ... 

no it was about the comment made by a poster that all that was needed to provide education in Thailand is a blackboard , chalk and books.

 

That may have been enough years ago and can continue to be for third world countries.

 

it is not enough in this day and age for Thailand. It’s as simple as that. If you believe it is and accept it as such, then you are part of the problem as to why Thailand performs so badly in educating its own children as proved in the link I provided.

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

 

Perhaps we are arguing at cross purposes. I am not arguing against technology. 

I too am referring to the quality of the education. 

Technology did not help the boy who lost my 75 satang. There are other ways to make lessons more interesting than wheeling out a TV. They didn't have them in centuries before. 

My education required everyone to know how to use an abacus. The basics. 

People are becoming more 'dumb'.

My response was not about wheeling out a TV. 

[kiwikeith]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:19 AM, StayinThailand2much said:

Let me guess...

 

Last in ASEAN: the "stone-age" Tasaday 'nation' in the highland rainforest of Mindanao. Second-last: Korowai ("unaware of any other peoples") nation in West Papua. Third from the bottom: the glorious ("We are #1 in everything, so why bother learning English?") Thai nation!

 

If you think that Thai schools are dumb, then I can tell you that NZ public schools are backward dumbed down, where your child can know less in one years teaching than the previous, many parents now take their children out of school and teach them at home. 

[ikke1959]

12 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

no it was about the comment made by a poster that all that was needed to provide education in Thailand is a blackboard , chalk and books.

 

That may have been enough years ago and can continue to be for third world countries.

 

it is not enough in this day and age for Thailand. It’s as simple as that. If you believe it is and accept it as such, then you are part of the problem as to why Thailand performs so badly in educating its own children as proved in the link I provided.

 

My question than for you is, how did you get your education?? was there internet, TV and other technology in your class?? I understand that nowadays it is easier to use that kind of equipment, but for basic skills it is not a must. When I was in primary  school we did not even had a TV at home or in the class, and in secondary school we had no technology too, but I can perfectly read , write and do math, know about geography and history.. just to say...

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

My question than for you is, how did you get your education?? was there internet, TV and other technology in your class?? 

That's like trying to say that there is no need to move with the times because we can ignore all other developments as how we do it now will always be the best way.

 

18 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

When I was in primary  school we did not even had a TV at home or in the class, and in secondary school we had no technology too, but I can perfectly read , write and do math, know about geography and history.. just to say...

So can I but I was never disputing that its not possible, read my post again.

 

Thailand actually has a very good Education budget, in fact its 5% of GDP and 20% of the country's fiscal budget had been allocated, far more than many countries. However budget allocations to local authorities in Thailand came to merely 16% of the total.

 

More than enough to move on from a blackboard and chalk. Where does all this money go? Because instead of being used effectively Thailand's inequality in education and its standing in world comparisons will always be dismal.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[dinsdale]

10 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Agree. Unfortunately some are stuck in their ways both teachers and people who comment on this. I remember in the early 70's I think it was overhead projectors and wheeling in TVs and this was great. Made learning more interesting. Blackboards and coloured chalk was invented in the 19th Century. Technology is now essential to learning. Kids are digital natives and not using or being able to use tech for learning is just rediculous e.g. teach the huge volcanic eruption off Samoa with chalk on a blackboard or actually show the footage. Which would be more engaging? Which would students learn more from.

Tonga not Samoa. 

[djayz]

It looks like a lot of people here are hung up on their English language skills (or the lack thereof). The core problem is the education system in general, not just the foreign language skills. 

[ikke1959]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

That's like trying to say that there is no need to move with the times because we can ignore all other developments as how we do it now will always be the best way.

 

So can I but I was never disputing that its not possible, read my post again.

 

Thailand actually has a very good Education budget, in fact its 5% of GDP and 20% of the country's fiscal budget had been allocated, far more than many countries. However budget allocations to local authorities in Thailand came to merely 16% of the total.

 

More than enough to move on from a blackboard and chalk. Where does all this money go? Because instead of being used effectively Thailand's inequality in education and its standing in world comparisons will always be dismal.

Don't misunderstand me, I agree with you mostly... Of course I am teaching here now almost 20 years and in the school I am in now they have internet in all rooms and big screens and teaching has developped with it...But it doesn't make a difference as I taught in the middle of nowhere too without anything than blackboard and chalk and the backside of used papers.. The biggest problem is that students need to do the job by learning and remember, and there is a big hole.. probably because they don't need to remember because the teacher is helping them all the time, because if they fail the teacher is a bad teacher and no fail policy... But the basic things have nothing to do with the technology. In my P6 classes kids are still counting on their fingers... just to say...and all the money the Government is spending on education will disappear in pockets by several institutions. In my opinion the first thing that has to be done is abolish the all ways pass law, and give students ( just like O-net) state made tests... Teachers in the school should be go to another school for surveillance so that they can not help their students... If the students don't pass they stay in the same grade and if it happens that many students not pass for the same subject, maybe you have to chance the teacher.. It sounds strict, but much better than pumping a lot of money in bottomless well...I know from my own experience that Thai teachers are teaching the kids of parents who can afford it in special classes and they even give them more attention in the regular class.. those kids are a bit better than the other kids, but I think it is the job of the teacher to teach all kids and if kids can't follow the lessons, you have to give them more attention and not the ones who have  special class and pay you...So cut the budget and reform the whole system.....but I am only a foreigner 

[Bruno123]

15 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Agree. Unfortunately some are stuck in their ways both teachers and people who comment on this. I remember in the early 70's I think it was overhead projectors and wheeling in TVs and this was great. Made learning more interesting. Blackboards and coloured chalk was invented in the 19th Century. Technology is now essential to learning. Kids are digital natives and not using or being able to use tech for learning is just rediculous e.g. teach the huge volcanic eruption off Samoa with chalk on a blackboard or actually show the footage. Which would be more engaging? Which would students learn more from.

 

Blackboard and chalk. Explain first, show the footage afterwards. 

Otherwise you lose the ability to visualise.

I was doing advanced algebra at ten years old. Had to be taught privately by the headmaster in his study, since no one else could do it at my primary school.

It was absolutely normal to be able to recite Pi to a hundred digits and more.

 

Chinese and Indian children start with an abacus; that's why they are eating your lunch for when it comes to technological understanding.

One lot are playing games on their phone, the others are sending spacecraft to the other side of the moon.

Get back to basics. Otherwise you will breed a nation of idiots.

 

 

[Bruno123]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

That's like trying to say that there is no need to move with the times because we can ignore all other developments as how we do it now will always be the best way.

 

So can I but I was never disputing that its not possible, read my post again.

 

Thailand actually has a very good Education budget, in fact its 5% of GDP and 20% of the country's fiscal budget had been allocated, far more than many countries. However budget allocations to local authorities in Thailand came to merely 16% of the total.

 

More than enough to move on from a blackboard and chalk. Where does all this money go? Because instead of being used effectively Thailand's inequality in education and its standing in world comparisons will always be dismal.

What is the point of moving on from a blackboard and chalk if they don't understand what is written there in the first place?

It really seems as if it is you who is not grasping the simple points being made....which is rather ironic, since that is exactly what we are discussing; understanding the basics.

 

Coding, but still having to calculate using your fingers? ????

 

Come on...we are writing about raising standards; not just following the latest trends. That is another lesson in itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[edwinchester]

"...hire two more qualified teaching employees who live in this neighbourhood, and who could accept five thousand baht salaries"

 

Well there's your problem.

[Bkk Brian]

44 minutes ago, Bruno123 said:

What is the point of moving on from a blackboard and chalk if they don't understand what is written there in the first place?

It really seems as if it is you who is not grasping the simple points being made....which is rather ironic, since that is exactly what we are discussing; understanding the basics.

 

Coding, but still having to calculate using your fingers? ????

 

Come on...we are writing about raising standards; not just following the latest trends. That is another lesson in itself.

Don't assume what we are discussing are the same things, my responses have been tailored to one specific post which I find to be nonsense:

 

"Technology is generally a distraction from education.

All you need to educate children is decent text books for the kids and a blackboard with chalk for the teachers."

 

However my discussions with you have come to an end from my side

 

 

[arick]

On 1/18/2022 at 7:17 AM, Geir Rasch said:

They must have a currucilum that preper the students for a modern world, not kling to old traditions. Students must be encouraged to question what the teachers teach and sack teachers that leave the students to them self because the teacher have other business.  

Thai teachers just talk and direct! So behind other Asean countries 

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

Don't misunderstand me, I agree with you mostly... Of course I am teaching here now almost 20 years and in the school I am in now they have internet in all rooms and big screens and teaching has developped with it...But it doesn't make a difference as I taught in the middle of nowhere too without anything than blackboard and chalk and the backside of used papers.. The biggest problem is that students need to do the job by learning and remember, and there is a big hole.. probably because they don't need to remember because the teacher is helping them all the time, because if they fail the teacher is a bad teacher and no fail policy... But the basic things have nothing to do with the technology. In my P6 classes kids are still counting on their fingers... just to say...and all the money the Government is spending on education will disappear in pockets by several institutions. In my opinion the first thing that has to be done is abolish the all ways pass law, and give students ( just like O-net) state made tests... Teachers in the school should be go to another school for surveillance so that they can not help their students... If the students don't pass they stay in the same grade and if it happens that many students not pass for the same subject, maybe you have to chance the teacher.. It sounds strict, but much better than pumping a lot of money in bottomless well...I know from my own experience that Thai teachers are teaching the kids of parents who can afford it in special classes and they even give them more attention in the regular class.. those kids are a bit better than the other kids, but I think it is the job of the teacher to teach all kids and if kids can't follow the lessons, you have to give them more attention and not the ones who have  special class and pay you...So cut the budget and reform the whole system.....but I am only a foreigner 

Got you and agree on most points. There is also the other aspect of teaching styles and how a teacher engages with the students which I have always found very important. The more a teacher invests in educational outcomes through lesson planning and being attentive to individual needs the better the outcomes. Treat the students with respect and you gain respect in return.

 

Returning to my points on tech, I've experienced both, when I was at school with no meaningful technology to facilitate and the here and now when there is. Following my daughters recent years progression in education, tech has certainly helped in all subjects including Maths with some excellent interactive programmes that are indiviually set to a persons level of achievement and challenge them in an investigation based comprehensive curriculum that assists all students levels, its an excellent add on to the normal 4 times a week school lessons.

 

Moving on some of the projects that have been carried out by her in other subjects are dependent on her own investigation. For example a recent history project was the "Black Death" The only guidance given was the length of essay needed, bullet points covered and guidance on possible websites to visit. This approach relied on the students ability to be independent in investigation, engage with the subject achieving a real interest in the outcome. End results a piece of work they can call their own and be proud of.

 

However wishful thinking for a Thai government school as everybody needs their own laptop and internet but still something to aspire to if they ever get round to overhauling the whole sorry state of affairs including the rife corruption.

[Bruno123]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Don't assume what we are discussing are the same things, my responses have been tailored to one specific post which I find to be nonsense:

 

"Technology is generally a distraction from education.

All you need to educate children is decent text books for the kids and a blackboard with chalk for the teachers."

 

However my discussions with you have come to an end from my side

 

 

 

I did not assume anything. Remember when I stated that I think that we are discussing at cross purposes, but you ploughed on regardless?

 

BritManToo wrote in general terms about the state school education system. You, to illustrate your point, wrote about International school curricula.