47 minutes ago, watthong said:

We won't force vaccination on anyone, but private business, government premises (including hospital and school) reserve the rights to add "no-vaccination" to their "no shirts, no shoes, no admission/services" sign. In short, you want to reserve the freedom to not get vaccinated, we therefore reserve the right to not do business with you. No one is forced to do anything they don't want to. Vive la liberte'!

So as a private business owner, can I refuse service to those who I suspect might be homeless, if I can prove by showing statistics that they are more likely to steal from my business? 
How about if I just ask them to produce a piece of identification that shows me they at least have a home address? 
 

If someone were a taxi driver in certain American cities, They might look at the statistics involving armed robberies and other violent crime, and conclude that they don’t want to pick up customers who fall into certain ethnic groups. Should that be allowed, if the numbers seem to prove the hypothesis? 
 

I’m sure you can show me plenty of evidence saying that someone is less likely to give you covid after being vaccinated, but you can’t produce any evidence to show that it’s absolutely not possible. I think the evidence at this point shows us that it absolutely is possible. 
 

So if we are going to allow people to discriminate against others on the basis that it’s “more likely” for that group of people to cause harm to others, what should stop the taxi driver in Chicago from discriminating against those who he can prove with statistics are “more likely” to rob him at gun point? 

27 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The unvaccinated are still the largest proportion of hospitalisations and are overwhelming the system.

Not true where I live. There’s more vaccinated people in hospitals now than unvaccinated. 

 

I do understand that as more and more people become vaccinated, they will represent a larger and larger proportion of the total number of people in hospitals, but the fact remains that even without the unvaccinated patients there, it would likely still be too many for the system to cope (basing this assumption on the fact that it couldn’t cope very well before covid came along). 
This brings us back to those people who are vaccinated, but have otherwise neglected their health, and are suffering from other chronic diseases along with covid. Would they still be hospitalized if they were 50 kilos lighter and could jog a few KM without collapsing? What about if they were 35 and not 75?
 

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not qualified to address what might be behind someone who has been vaccinated adopting and posting ant-vac messaging,

 

I don’t think my messaging is anti-vax at all, just pro-choice/anti-discrimination. 
 

I also think it should be the responsibility of the individual to protect themselves as much as they deem necessary. If I raw-dog my way through Pattaya and catch AIDS, is it her fault for not making me wear a condom?

 

Airborne diseases are nothing new, and they aren’t going away. If people plan on avoiding exposure to them completely, they should invest in a bubble. 

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Plenty of people are winding up in ICU despite being triple vaccinated. The argument for restricting unvaccinated people won't go away anytime soon unless the virus does.

90% of Covid ICU cases in the UK are those that are non-vaccinated. I suspect that the figures in Thailand won't be too dissimilar.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

I don’t think my messaging is anti-vax at all, just pro-choice/anti-discrimination. 
 

I also think it should be the responsibility of the individual to protect themselves as much as they deem necessary. If I raw-dog my way through Pattaya and catch AIDS, is it her fault for not making me wear a condom?

 

Airborne diseases are nothing new, and they aren’t going away. If people plan on avoiding exposure to them completely, they should invest in a bubble. 

 

You're right though the difference here is that we have an relatively effective vaccine. If you choose not to take it then maybe you should invest in the bubble and isolate away from the rest of us ????

 

1 hour ago, Ryan754326 said:

So as a private business owner, can I refuse service to those who I suspect might be homeless, if I can prove by showing statistics that they are more likely to steal from my business? 
How about if I just ask them to produce a piece of identification that shows me they at least have a home address? 
 

If someone were a taxi driver in certain American cities, They might look at the statistics involving armed robberies and other violent crime, and conclude that they don’t want to pick up customers who fall into certain ethnic groups. Should that be allowed, if the numbers seem to prove the hypothesis? 
 

I’m sure you can show me plenty of evidence saying that someone is less likely to give you covid after being vaccinated, but you can’t produce any evidence to show that it’s absolutely not possible. I think the evidence at this point shows us that it absolutely is possible. 
 

So if we are going to allow people to discriminate against others on the basis that it’s “more likely” for that group of people to cause harm to others, what should stop the taxi driver in Chicago from discriminating against those who he can prove with statistics are “more likely” to rob him at gun point? 

 

We have vaccines for mumps, rubella, chicken pox, measles and other airborne viruses, I don't see any reason not to have the Covid vaccine unless you are medically exempt. It's not discrimination, it's common sense.

 

 

Go ahead and try all the BS theories on this math.

 

Novant Health...a large USA Health care facility.

The average age of a hospitalized person is 49 years old. Priest said that unvaccinated people make up 91% of hospitalizations, 92% of ICU patients, and 94% of patients on ventilators.

 

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/unvaccinated-patients-dominate-covid-19-hospitalizations-novant-health/C6HMWH4GRVCDJLLJC6WS4YKIBY/

A post that misrepresented a Thai government program to provide payments to people who claimed vaccine related injuries has been removed along with ensuing replies. Also a series of off-topic posts.

1 hour ago, Chelseafan said:

90% of Covid ICU cases in the UK are those that are non-vaccinated. I suspect that the figures in Thailand won't be too dissimilar.

 

 

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?
 

“The Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre (ICNARC), which has been monitoring activity throughout the pandemic, provides information on admissions to intensive care.3 Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%.”

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o5

36 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?
 

“The Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre (ICNARC), which has been monitoring activity throughout the pandemic, provides information on admissions to intensive care.3 Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%.”

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o5

With some hospitals previously reporting 80-90%.

 

"The 61% figure is lower than the 80-90% reported at some hospitals. But the latest ICNARC data span only to 15 December, and the proportion of patients in intensive care who are unvaccinated may have increased as the omicron variant spread in December. Some hospitals will also have been more badly affected than others."

 

1 hour ago, onthedarkside said:

A post that misrepresented a Thai government program to provide payments to people who claimed vaccine related injuries has been removed along with ensuing replies. Also a series of off-topic posts.

I am the one who posted this. Please explain (either here or by PM) in what way it was misrepresenting.

All Covid restrictions in UK will be removed by 27th March.

No covid pass, no masks, etc. etc.

So it took drunken party scandals to get them to finally do the right thing.

Hopefully the first of many corrections.

 

7 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

So as a private business owner, can I refuse service to those who I suspect might be homeless, if I can prove by showing statistics that they are more likely to steal from my business? 
How about if I just ask them to produce a piece of identification that shows me they at least have a home address? 
 

If someone were a taxi driver in certain American cities, They might look at the statistics involving armed robberies and other violent crime, and conclude that they don’t want to pick up customers who fall into certain ethnic groups. Should that be allowed, if the numbers seem to prove the hypothesis? 
 

I’m sure you can show me plenty of evidence saying that someone is less likely to give you covid after being vaccinated, but you can’t produce any evidence to show that it’s absolutely not possible. I think the evidence at this point shows us that it absolutely is possible. 
 

So if we are going to allow people to discriminate against others on the basis that it’s “more likely” for that group of people to cause harm to others, what should stop the taxi driver in Chicago from discriminating against those who he can prove with statistics are “more likely” to rob him at gun point? 

You need to acquaint yourself with the difference between legal and illegal discrimination.

 

Start with reading up on ‘Protected Class/Group’.

 

Though I believe you probably know how doing so will reveal the holes in your argument above.

12 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Please be honest. The issue debated here was whether people in authority had initially said that massive inoculation of two shots would be enough to stop infections and therefore the pandemic. The headline reads "CDC director says data 'suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus'", therefore my stance (that these claims had indeed been made) was correct.

 

From the article:

 

In other words, two shots of Pfizer or Moderna's vaccines, followed by two full weeks for them to take effect, nearly zeroed out all detectable infections — including asymptomatic ones. The CDC concluded, based on those results, that Pfizer and Moderna's COVID-19 vaccines are roughly 90% effective at preventing COVID-19 infections in the real world, even the asymptomatic kind. This is a great sign, because it means that vaccinated people likely don't pose a risk of spreading the virus to those around them.

 

The CDC of course refuted those claims later but they did initially make them.

Scientists can only go on the data they have before them at a particular point in time. What worked for the alpha variant does not necessarily mean the same will work for other variants. Criticizing them for changing their position is simply ignorance of the scientific process, and the mutation of viruses.

" When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" ( John Maynard Keynes )

4 hours ago, Airalee said:

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?
 

“The Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre (ICNARC), which has been monitoring activity throughout the pandemic, provides information on admissions to intensive care.3 Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%.”

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o5

Also from the report you have linked:

 

“Further analysis by the agency has concluded that unvaccinated adults are as much as eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been vaccinated and that booster doses are 88% effective at preventing hospital admission”

 

Let’s go Darwin.

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Also from the report you have linked:

 

“Further analysis by the agency has concluded that unvaccinated adults are as much as eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been vaccinated and that booster doses are 88% effective at preventing hospital admission”

 

Let’s go Darwin.

Here's the first Award candidate:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-20/czech-singer-dies-after-deliberately-getting-covid/100768826

 

11 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

They weren't comments but an erroneous premise repeated ad nauseam for months on end by the world's top health authorities.

Your nitpicking.  The vaccines work, it's been proven ad nauseam for months.

14 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I am just wondering how many anti-vaxxers have seen this photo, taken some decades ago. IMO their resistance to vaccination doesn't go that far.

I'm pretty sure that most are not antivax per se, but specifically anti covid vaccine. Claiming that they are anti ALL vaccines is IMO just attempting to smear them. I personally wouldn't take Pfizer, which meant I had to wait till an alternative was available.

IMO had they not had polio vaccine there would be lots of people getting polio, and there ain't, in western countries at least.

14 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Yes, the article says the intensive care beds are temporary and that nursing staff are reassigned to intensive care units. It is also said that 27,000 beds have been closed over the past seven years, which is massive and is the real core of the problem.

I wonder if they closed beds because they couldn't get the staff, or because they wanted to save money or some other reason?

I know the NHS had a huge problem getting staff when I was working for it. They just didn't pay enough to make it worthwhile to train, IMO. They were having to recruit in Africa. Lots came from the Philippines too.

11 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

we were led to believe that 70-80% of the population being vaccinated would be enough to get those numbers down to an acceptable level, and end the social restrictions and masks. Nothing “right wing” about it.

At one point I even remember an American politician saying that the pandemic could be over in a month if people would just wear their masks. 
 

You might have been aware that the vaccines wouldn’t neutralize covid completely. I was aware, but was called a pessimist (among others things) for trying to tell anyone or show them the evidence.
The mainstream media sure didn’t make it very clear to the general public. 

 

 

I cannot see what your point is, is it you're just anti-authority or something.....?

 

Just answer this one question, have Covid vaccines save thousands of lives..Yes or No...?

1 minute ago, transam said:

I cannot see what your point is, is it you're just anti-authority or something.....?

 

Just answer this one question, have Covid vaccines save thousands of lives..Yes or No...?

It's not over by a long shot. Lets wait and see if they did when it really is over.

8 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

So as a private business owner, can I refuse service to those who I suspect might be homeless, if I can prove by showing statistics that they are more likely to steal from my business? 
How about if I just ask them to produce a piece of identification that shows me they at least have a home address? 
 

If someone were a taxi driver in certain American cities, They might look at the statistics involving armed robberies and other violent crime, and conclude that they don’t want to pick up customers who fall into certain ethnic groups. Should that be allowed, if the numbers seem to prove the hypothesis? 
 

I’m sure you can show me plenty of evidence saying that someone is less likely to give you covid after being vaccinated, but you can’t produce any evidence to show that it’s absolutely not possible. I think the evidence at this point shows us that it absolutely is possible. 
 

So if we are going to allow people to discriminate against others on the basis that it’s “more likely” for that group of people to cause harm to others, what should stop the taxi driver in Chicago from discriminating against those who he can prove with statistics are “more likely” to rob him at gun point? 

Because if someone is a certain skin color they can change that by getting a vaccination? Ethnicity, skin color etc is not something that can be changed (well, unless you're Michael Jackson).  But believe it or not, it is possible to change your status from unvaccinated to vaccinated.

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I wonder if they closed beds because they couldn't get the staff, or because they wanted to save money or some other reason?

I know the NHS had a huge problem getting staff when I was working for it. They just didn't pay enough to make it worthwhile to train, IMO. They were having to recruit in Africa. Lots came from the Philippines too.

Think we will prevail, usually do, 1918 was trying. In the last UK pandemic, my mum had to make parts for fighter planes, no ifs, ands or buts...........????

 

 

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's not over by a long shot. Lets wait and see if they did when it really is over.

Sunbeam, vaccines already have saved lives......????

But thousands will succumb through their own stupidity, I read it every day. 

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/hana-horka-czech-singer-dies-172753070.html

1 hour ago, transam said:

Sunbeam, vaccines already have saved lives......????

But thousands will succumb through their own stupidity, I read it every day. 

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/hana-horka-czech-singer-dies-172753070.html

Lets see when the stats come in about poor countries that couldn't vaccinate as many as the rich west. Then we really will see if vaccine made a difference.

2 hours ago, catturd said:

90%? I am unable to confirm that number.

Please provide a link to supporting data.

In the meantime I was able to find the following UK-HSA reports of hospitalization and death rates by vaccination status.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1043608/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_51.pdf

 

I've already posted above.

In relation to your article, that's potentially 3693 people who might not have needed to be in hospital because they were, in the main, self-absorbed idiots!

 

 

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Lets see when the stats come in about poor countries that couldn't vaccinate as many as the rich west. Then we really will see if vaccine made a difference.

You mean countries that also don’t have universal access to healthcare and almost certainly no reliable data collection.

A COVID misinformation post and several ensuing replies have been removed. Also an off-topic post.

 

Guadalajara Mexico tv announcer perhaps says it best.

 

 

10 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Scientists can only go on the data they have before them at a particular point in time. What worked for the alpha variant does not necessarily mean the same will work for other variants. Criticizing them for changing their position is simply ignorance of the scientific process, and the mutation of viruses.

" When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" ( John Maynard Keynes )

The purpose of my intervention was not to criticise them but to reestablish facts. The assertion that the authorities' stance has been consistent from day one (which I have seen several users of this forum make) is erroneous and equates to rewriting history. Truth matters.