US battling to swing Thailand away from China

[steven100]

9 minutes ago, SunsetT said:

So who was in Thailand before 8th & 10th centuries?

Who founded Thailand ?

Thais date the founding of their nation to the 13th century. According to tradition, in 1238, Thai chieftains overthrew their Khmer overlords at Sukhothai and established a Thai kingdom. After its decline, a new Thai kingdom emerged in 1350 on the Chao Praya River

[SunsetT]

42 minutes ago, RayOday said:

advancing education???

Not in Thailand!

[SunsetT]

5 minutes ago, steven100 said:

Who founded Thailand ?

No! Who were the aboriginals living on this land before it became 'Thailand' and  before, as was claimed,  the ethnic Chinese arrived, as I said, before the 8/10th centuries?

[Eric Loh]

4 hours ago, SiamAndy said:

Do you really think Bumbling Joe and his administration can sway them? If anything, he'll drive them further away!

At least Joe got the name right but not mis-pronounced as Thighland as the other buffoon did.  

[thaibook]

5 hours ago, steven100 said:

Thai-Chinese DNA goes back 1000's of years.    Thailand will side with China as history shows. 

 

Are Thai descendants of Chinese?

What are considered modern-day Thai people today actually emigrated from China into Thailand a long time ago. Between the 8th and 10th centuries, the Tai people — that's descendants of those who spoke a common Tai language — migrated from China down throughout Southeast Asia, with many settling in Thailand.

That does not make them Chinese.  Apparently our ancestors all came from Africa - are we all Africans, then?  China is the country ruled by and for the Han  It is an empire that now encompasses other territories and rules over other "lesser" people. 

 

Incidentally China's GDP in 1890 was greater than that of the USA, and of every other country.  Perhaps not being able to catch up economically through domestic investmetn and innovation it is adopting the conventional route of expansion and colonisation. 

[konaboy]

10 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

At least Joe got the name right but not mis-pronounced as Thighland as the other buffoon did.  

2 buffoons!  God Bless America!!

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

That was Afghanistan and not Iraq. But then again for some people in the USA that's all the same.

And about that current government/President over there: Obviously he is far away from perfect but look at the alternative lying traitor. 

Actually he pulled troops out of Iraq as well as Afghanistan. 

 

But my point on the topic of THIS thread topic remains, China has much more in common with Thailand than the US does. China will continue it's takeover of SE Asia via economic force and incentives. There will only be one winner, and that is China. Thailand will sell out at the expense of it's people for the economic benefit of a very few Elite families, many of whom have Chinese heritage.

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by JonnyF

[spidermike007]

Trump managed to alienate Thailand, as he did with nearly all of America's allies. China is no doubt working their magic, in whatever way they can. Fortunally, Thailand seems to be leery of the highly aggressive commie goons. 

 

America is no easy ally. But, given a choice, they are likely the less dangerous option. 

[Boomer6969]

6 hours ago, Paulaew said:

Thailand played off the British and the French in the 19th century and managed to retain their independence. It looks like they are trying to do the same with China and the USA.

IMHO that's a very naive view of what happened during the second half of the 19th century. In those years  leading to the "Entente cordiale" the Brits and the French needed some neutral ground to play chess, Siam was the obvious choice, easy to bribe.

 

When it comes the the USA, I'd suggest that if that deal for 4 F-35 gets through they should get delivered with a note saying: "what else do your Chinese masters need".

[tomacht8]

In Thailand, the US has no chance against China's expansionist policy. China specifically seeks out countries with corrupt governments. Then very, very long-term contracts are made, which, viewed objectively, are disadvantageous for the countries. The thrust of economic expansion policies that lead to dependency are always the 3 elements: mineral resources, agricultural land and market access. There are then investment credits for submarines, high-speed railways, etc., which are then sold propagandistic

to the naïve population as progress. Whether these projects are really worthwhile for a country, i.e. make sense in the long term, is no longer checked by the corrupt sovereigns, the main thing is that the kickback sum is right. China, as the world's extended workbench, has money and buys resource rights, buys and develops land for the food production for its own people and floods the markets with their unbeatably cheap consumer products.

 

The disadvantages are serious. In the long term, the country loses the opportunity to build up its own, competitive, domestic productions against the cheap products from China. The ability to provide food for one's native population decreases when much of the acreage is in Chinese hands and has been sold. Although the country receives royalitis in the exploitation of natural resources, the possibility of price adjustments when raw material prices are rising worldwide, is lost. Not to mention the harmful consequences for the environment. China also has its upgraded military as leverage. And also the ability to turn off the water for Southeast Asian countries with his dams.

[connda]

Thailand's geopolitics are similar to a Thai bar-girl.

She'll express her undying love and affection as you send her monthly bank deposits, however once you leave town she'll be expressing undying love and affection to the next farang that comes along. 

[connda]

49 minutes ago, konaboy said:

2 buffoons!  God Bless America!!

When the US puts a Gen-X or Millennial in the Oval Office instead of these over-the-hill, Boomer geriatric basket cases, then the US may actually develop relevant foreign policy objectives.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, steven100 said:

Thai-Chinese DNA goes back 1000's of years.    Thailand will side with China as history shows. 

 

Are Thai descendants of Chinese?

What are considered modern-day Thai people today actually emigrated from China into Thailand a long time ago. Between the 8th and 10th centuries, the Tai people — that's descendants of those who spoke a common Tai language — migrated from China down throughout Southeast Asia, with many settling in Thailand.

The Tai people are an ethnic minority in Yunnan (China) and are not Han Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_peoples

 

A lot of Chinese families in Thailand emigrated here in the 20th Century. 

[connda]

Quote

“Thailand has been leaning toward China, and away from the US, for two decades,” said Benjamin Zawacki, the Bangkok-based American author of Thailand: Shifting Ground Between the US and a Rising China."

The Chinese land border is about 200 km from where I live.

Now - who is more relevant?  The country 200 km away, or the country which is 14,000 miles away?

If the US and its allies get involved in a hot war with China over Taiwan and the South China Sea, Thailand will snap right back into China's sphere of geopolitical influence regardless of the toys that Uncle Sam gives Uncle Tu.  It would be a short suicide to back the West over China with China a stone's throw away.

Thailand will flirt and bat its eyelashes at the US and accept all of its gifts.  But when the real fight starts you'll find out Thailand's first and true lover.

[LukKrueng]

4 hours ago, Isaanlife said:

Ever wonder why Thai's can go to the USA and get everything, yet farang's here get nothing reciprocated?

Because the US is built on immigration and Thailand is the land of the Thais. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And if you look at countries that have been overwhelmed by new immigrants and the way local culture and way of life has changed (and mostly not for better) I think you should be able to appreciate why Thailand prefers to stay the land of the Thais. 

[puck2]

2 hours ago, RayOday said:

I have to agree that money is the root of weakneds in the corrupt Thai government. Money and the power to control it are the motivators.

CP Group's vertical integration and cooperation with CCP rubber-stamping their investments in the mainland is a poor example spun as gold.

Most ASEAN Chinese are not from Mandarin speaking China rather Guangdong and Fujian. These are the same populations that occupy Hong Kong and Taiwan (how is that working out?) with the exception of Mandarin speaking refugees that left, mostly from Nanjing and Shanghai, during Mao's effort to crush the KMT. These Chinese speak Guangdonghua (Cantonese), Hakka, and other tribal dialects of Southeast China. The Southeast coast afforded merchants the ability to explore, save themselves from numerous threats, and exploit new markets in what is now ASEAN. Thailand is not alone with the richest Filipinos and Malay Strait countries hailing  from SE China. 

Does anyone think that Rama 9 supported the communists of CCP ideology? (Hmmm CP/CCP) I have no comment on the current government's ideology as money and power dominate as well as a bloated bureaucracy. Many improvements the current government is undertaking will improve the lives of many Thai people and strategically, most likely, cement their hold on power. The Thai people, not someone unqualified as me, can make such forecasts.

Craven interests in lucre and power have taken over, and to some degree, stratified class power and produced legions of corrupt and greedy wannabees. Education, constitution, rule of law, and the minimization of corruption will aid in carrying the country forward. The unintended consequences of playing both sides is useful although in this case I fear it is not just a case of guiding altruism for the Thai people by it's leaders in government and business. The recent upgrades in ASEAN infrastructure and advancing education are empowering. Seeding an unelected government with millionaires and billionaires excludes a diversity of constituents and advances an economic patriarchy of unqualified mini-oligarchs. Corruption, fear and greed are debilitating this nation of great potential. Only my most humble opinion of a historically and strategically complex subject. 

 

 

 

Never forget both countries, China and Thailand,  have military dictators on the top. The US not.

 

The worst is Xi who wants to drive China back to Mao's ideas of Chinese imperialism and extrem dictatorship.

 

Prayut behaves like a dictator, although elected democrativally, as he pretends (as a liar). Extinguishing all political "enemies" before the last election is only one ugly example of many, many. And of course, completely undemocratic. For example destroying the Future Forward Party with its great leaders. And he holds up this military, undemocartic style. Maybe asking Xi on his first visit in Peking how to do it.

 

This undemocratic behavior happened in China already with Mao (in 1949?). In the US the last idiot who unsuccessfully tried to eliminate the democracy was just stopped one year before, because of an uncensored election. A great difference between China, Thailand and the USA.

 

For his own and the military interest P. sacrifices the furure of Thailand supporting dictator Xi without any shame or remorse. I'm sure he will destroy all normal democratic rules in  the coming election.

 

That's one reason, why Prayut prefers China and showing the USA his backside. China supports him, the USA not.

 

 

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, konaboy said:

2 buffoons!  God Bless America!!

Trump is a Buffon while Joe is indecisive. The Un-united State of America will never have a cohesive long term foreign policy for Asia. The political system is their bane.
 

Obama had a pivot towards Asia strategy which Trump dismantle and Joe has to rebuild. The consequence of this flip flop foreign policy is dire in that countries don’t trust America anymore.  Trump has exposed the political system fragility and also the economics of Made in America mantra. 
 

China is smarter by using soft power and investments. No military alliances or bases as bargaining chip for fostering good foreign policy relationship. Their political system is more cohesive and predictable than USA. 

[RayOday]

2 hours ago, vandeventer said:

Yes but Sleepy Joe did give us some good vaccines but the Chinese did give us some and charge for many. And it would be nice if we could send them all back to the Chinese with a note to tell them where to stick them.

CP Group makes money off it's interests in Sinopharm. A shameful company.

[Enoon]

3 hours ago, SunsetT said:

No! Who were the aboriginals living on this land before it became 'Thailand' and  before, as was claimed,  the ethnic Chinese arrived, as I said, before the 8/10th centuries?

Short answer, The Mon.

 

They also originated somewhere up the Yangste:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_people

 

Displaced by Tai and Khmer

 

"Thailand" was invented by the Nationalists who overturned the Democratic Revolution of 1932, in the 1933 coup.

 

They also began the process of actively suppressing the multi-ethnic identity of what had previously been known as Siam......"Thaification":

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaification

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Enoon

[starky]

9 hours ago, SiamAndy said:

Do you really think Bumbling Joe and his administration can sway them? If anything, he'll drive them further away!

Yes he would do much worse than the bloke that calls the joint thighland lol

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by starky

[The Hammer2021]

12 hours ago, Soikhaonoiken said:

Yes,, the US can see what China is doing to Thailand, and its future intentions... 

But Thailand  knows what the USA has done to South American countries, Central American countries, Cambodia,  Laos, Vietnam,  Afghanistan etc etc. And the current  USA leadership is not inspiring  nor is the self destruction of of its own heritage  and history. Asians simply do not understand why some western nations, especially English speaking  nations appear  to be destroying themselves, their history and culture.  The crisis  in confidence of some western  nations like THE USA is shocking and a clear example of what not to be or do.

[worldexpress]

12 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Apologies if sounds racist, but a lot of mandarin blood in Thai leaders' veins perhaps... coupled with the promise of easy coin. Bung em a few billion Joe boy; the current Thai 'administration' sucks giant monkey b***s but at least it is not complete Sino-style totalitarianism... just yet!

Not racist at all but the fact that hundreds of years of Chinese influence and cultural ties can't be discounted. It is a deeply rooted one and not unique to Thailand. If anyone ventured onto the streets of Bangkok last couple of days, you'd have noticed every other woman in a Chinese dress for the New Year.

[The Hammer2021]

3 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

In Thailand, the US has no chance against China's expansionist policy. China specifically seeks out countries with corrupt governments. Then very, very long-term contracts are made, which, viewed objectively, are disadvantageous for the countries. The thrust of economic expansion policies that lead to dependency are always the 3 elements: mineral resources, agricultural land and market access. There are then investment credits for submarines, high-speed railways, etc., which are then sold propagandistic

to the naïve population as progress. Whether these projects are really worthwhile for a country, i.e. make sense in the long term, is no longer checked by the corrupt sovereigns, the main thing is that the kickback sum is right. China, as the world's extended workbench, has money and buys resource rights, buys and develops land for the food production for its own people and floods the markets with their unbeatably cheap consumer products.

 

The disadvantages are serious. In the long term, the country loses the opportunity to build up its own, competitive, domestic productions against the cheap products from China. The ability to provide food for one's native population decreases when much of the acreage is in Chinese hands and has been sold. Although the country receives royalitis in the exploitation of natural resources, the possibility of price adjustments when raw material prices are rising worldwide, is lost. Not to mention the harmful consequences for the environment. China also has its upgraded military as leverage. And also the ability to turn off the water for Southeast Asian countries with his dams.

You just described modern European policies. It's just that while the USA and Europe  self flaggellate about climate change, historical tatues and trans rights the Chinese go out and make deals and create influence.

[The Hammer2021]

3 minutes ago, worldexpress said:

Not racist at all but the fact that hundreds of years of Chinese influence and cultural ties can't be discounted. It is a deeply rooted one and not unique to Thailand. If anyone ventured onto the streets of Bangkok last couple of days, you'd have noticed every other woman in a Chinese dress for the New Year.

And in santa hats at Xmas and flower shirts at Songkran and blood at Halloween

Edited February 1, 2022 by The Hammer2021

[Shocked farang]

8 hours ago, Isaanlife said:

You obviously have no clue how Thailand operates.

 

The USA uses Thailand a geographic staging area only in the event of war in South East Asia, since the Vietnam War. Other than that, the USA could give a <deleted> what happens in Thailand. Ever wonder why everything Thai's get in the USA is not reciprocated in Thailand?

 

The Thai politician's could give a <deleted> what happens to their country because they all own houses in first world countries where their spoiled brat kids go to expensive first world schools.

 

Thai politicians are in it for the money and only the money. To enrich themselves while the country goes down the drain.

 

Did you know Thailand has more billionaire politicians than any country in the world? Of course not.

 

Why would a Thai billionaire want to be a politician? To make even more money.

 

Thailand will never rely on any country. Didn't you know? Ask any Thai? They are the greatest of everything in the entire world.

 

But at the end of the day, the politicians will cosy up to whoever they can make the most money from corruption. 

 

Chinese junk submarines, Ukraine armored carriers. Fake bomb scanners. Blimp Air ships. All made politicians filthy rich.

 

Forget investing in education, people, expats.

 

Money buys power, more money buys more power. Sooner or later you have enough money and power that you do not need to rely on any country or anyone.

 

If you think Thailand will ever rely on any country for anything other that politician corruption money, you have no idea about Thailand.

 

Thai politicians will sell Thailand out, while the Chinese buy banks, properties and everything of value. 

 

When they have enough money, these Thai politician's will be living in YOUR country where you, yourself cannot even afford to live.

 

This is the way the real world works.

 

 

 

 

 

True, many Thai politicians are keen on expensive Switzerland. 

[George Aylesham]

I wonder if the US realises how much of a major task they are setting themselves. Apart from the 14% of ethnic Chinese living in Thailand, the generally accepted figure for the amount of Han Chinese DNA within the Thai population is around 40%.

[Eric Loh]

America should be realistic about its relationship with Thailand. Until Thailand has a fully functional democracy and purge the military-elites coalition, relationship with America will always be frosty. The military-elites in Bangkok will have closer ties with Beijing whom they see as a more reliable defense partner and committed to perpetuate their autocratic style rule. 

[1FinickyOne]

13 hours ago, talahtnut said:

its MSM lies

what is that??? Mono Sodium M-lutinate? 

 

or better yet, you tell me...

[connda]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

America should be realistic about its relationship with Thailand. Until Thailand has a fully functional democracy and purge the military-elites coalition, relationship with America will always be frosty.

And all America needs is a fully functional democracy to replace the current kleptocratic plutocracy.

[Excel]

13 hours ago, steven100 said:

Thai-Chinese DNA goes back 1000's of years.    Thailand will side with China as history shows. 

 

Are Thai descendants of Chinese?

What are considered modern-day Thai people today actually emigrated from China into Thailand a long time ago. Between the 8th and 10th centuries, the Tai people — that's descendants of those who spoke a common Tai language — migrated from China down throughout Southeast Asia, with many settling in Thailand.

Exactly and considering the world opinion of the US these days and the way they have invaded and ruined countries in the last 50 years I should think most people would side with China.