Playing Behind The Japanese

[Dr. Burrito]

We went out to play this weekend at a local course that I have always loved and admired for both its quality of course and design, but also previously for its smart management. Sadly, I guess greed and shortsightedness have ruined the latter, and that simply ruins th experience.

We teed off in the morning with two groups ahead of us, the furthest out, a Thai group of elderly men with carts and the group in front of us, four Japanese men, two older, two younger.

Within about five holes, the older Thai guys were gone in the distance, while for the remainder of the day, we were stuck behind this Japanese foursome that were lucky to squirt the ball fifty yards at a go. Multiple practice swings, one foot from the hole ball markings and a general disregard for any form of etiquette. It took us six hours for the round.

We were fuming by the time this charade was over, had called the marshal (a sad joke of a job in Thailand) two times and nothing would cure it. The <deleted> simply refused to have any common sense or courtesy. They could have at least let us play through, but not even that.

To almost make matters worse, when we arrived at the 10th tee, the starter was about to let another group of Japanese golf tourist jam in-between us. As much as the three of us, all long time residents here, try to accommodate cultural differences, we couldn't let that one pass. One of my friends probably got into the starter more than the should have, but, ######, it was a sad example of them being greedy and trying to cram it as full as they could.

By the tee of the 18th, I simply had had enough. They had teed off, and predictably, one of them was about 75 yards from the teebox. After about 15 practice swings and waggles, he commenced to hit it another 50 yards or so. I loudly cheered his accomplishment with obvious sarcasm. He was of course, not pleased.

I reckon he got to the hole in about 8 swings. Now, I know we all have blowups holes, but complete blowups rounds on a Saturday when it is busy is simply too much. At least have the good grace to go as fast as you can where you can.

But playing here, especially on weekends, has sadly become a case of dodging Japanese tour buses or be stuck for hours. I know it cost a lot to play in Japan. I know it takes forever to get a tee time in Japan. But for mercy's sake, this crap has become too much.

Are any of you having this same problem and any luck solving it? I know that is probably as silly a question as I will ever ask.

Round over I complained to a member and was at least able to hear his round was just as slow. I did remind him he had paid for a membership and perhaps it would be better if he, rather than I, brought this issue up at a meeting soon.

Thank God my company lets me play during the week someimes

[Jai Dee]

It's not just the Japanese mate... we were stuck behind a 5-ball of Koreans on Saturday... each had his own cart and caddy which helped them move along a bit... but there must have been huge stakes because they spent at least 15 minutes putting on every green.

Not a marshall in sight...

[cleggit]

A loud shout of four followed by a drive smashed over their heads should speed them up !

[visarunner]

Stopped playing on Saturdays years ago.

I could not take the attitude of this , so called , golfers and their behaviour anymore.

Koreans and Japanese are completely ignorant.

We played once a tournament with a late Tee Off on Royal Golf , On Nut and could finish only 13holes in 5,5hours.

Stuck behind a Tourbus of Japaneses beginners.

Needless to say we never played this course again.

[Dr. Burrito]

Yes, Royal is bad about bringing in entire buses of them. I teed off there oen Saturday early right in front of a bus and thanked my lucky stars I was in front.

Bad golfers, bad manners and bad behavior in WWII. Ugh

[jdinasia]

Yes, Royal is bad about bringing in entire buses of them. I teed off there oen Saturday early right in front of a bus and thanked my lucky stars I was in front.

Bad golfers, bad manners and bad behavior in WWII. Ugh

If you are old enough to remember WWII ..... maybe you shouldn't be out in that heat

[Dr. Burrito]

I certainly feel that old sometimes...., but at least I can take the heat part of it :-)

[BossHogg]

I too have had problems with Koreans and Japanese here. I agree their behaviour is unacceptable as a result i now drive into them.I know this rude and they maybe blissfully ignorant, but they are ruining others enjoyment of the game. Im lucky to be able to regularly drive the ball over 300yds so now and again they will realise they should let my group through. ...try it, it may work.

[Jonny B]

i believe if they are that slow and bad and have no knowledge of golf etiquite and you or your group is clearly better and quicker then you have every right to push through. Simply pick up your ball before they get to the next tee and just tell them you are playing through.

[ProThaiExpat]

I haven't played gold in Thailand but many western clubs have special "ladies days" so slow females can take their time and men stay away on those days.

Any golfer sympathizes with slow pokes ahead, regardless of nationality.

When you compare a golfers frustration and slow players with Mount Everest climbers who must wait for an hour or more to access the summit, after climbing for days and with dwindling oxygen supplies with the attendant risks of death, there is no comparison. Yes slowpokes on Everest include Japanese but many other nationalities and it was Koreans in a recent National Geographic Special that wouldn't let other climbers "through" until their leader at base camp was contacted.

[Dr. Burrito]

Sorry Pro, but I fail to make the connection, since this is the GOLF FORUM. We could all go on for days about what doesn't compare. Useless way to highjack a thread.

[mark lamai]

gentlemen,

when playing golf one adopts the culture of golf for the duration.

ignorance and prior cultural affiliations are negated.

therefore....

the correct golfer has the right to hit balls at/over/close to any golfer in front not obeying the golfing rules.

personally i would love to smack a 7 iron 5' past the hole and suck it back to 2'

while 4 morons stand over 30' putts.

then just walk up inti them , putt out, and proceed ahead.

JUST DO IT!!

[cdnvic]

Why not make some cards up in Japanese asking politely if you can play through so that they won't have to feel rushed due to your faster pace?

Never know, being nice just might work.

[BossHogg]

I would like to see the club take a more active role too.Perhaps some signs on the tees in English, Thai and Japanese asking players to allow quicker groups to play through.

[thaihome]

Would never work. If it gets to be too bad you either pick up and go around (to be greeted by another slow group) or drink more beer.

TH

[Golden Nugget]

Hmmm..... Wonder if Senior Burrito would have posted this if they were four white boys instead.

[Fore Man]

I've seen the same miserable problem here in CM with not only Japanese, but Korean, Taiwanese, Thai and Singaporean players. All as arrogant and ignorant as can be and most of them don't have the game to back up their strutting. Played behind a molasses-slow threesome of Thai Police golfers yesterday, and they insisted on teeing off from the back tees, yet were probably carding doubles or worse on most holes. It must be a macho thing. And of course most Orientals are wagering on the game as well, and this increases the hesitations and agonizing over every shot. I have to agree that the only way to deal with it is to nail a drive over their heads and see if that speeds up play. Or be sure to call hole on all par 3s and be quick to march up to the green to press them on. Sometimes it actually works. The last resort is to simply barge up and take over the tee as one poster mentioned. I don't recommend this with Koreans or Chinese. They can be drinking and become rather surly and bellicose. Nasty fisticuffs and slinging clubs around can ensue. These are the Irish of the Orient and they have a fuze about 1-cm. long. Ain't worth it my friends I have no desire to get pulled into the local police station on trumped-up assautl charges from striking a golfer...no matter whose fault it was or who may have fired the first punch...and I particularly do not want to have a 3-iron surgically removed from my body. I have found that 90% of Asian golfers will never invite you to play through...but if you walk up and ask them politely...they often will say OK. At most Thai courses, the caddies manage this transaction...but you have to be firm with them or they will shy away. Nobody wants to say "NO" to a Japanese or Korean golfer. Therein lies the real problem and we are stuck with it I'm afraid. Endeth the epistle.

[Losangels]

Yes the proper golf ettiqute and manner are certainly lacking here. I've run into many golfers that are decent and a few that shouldn't be on the golf course that are from many nationalities. Ego plays a big factor for problem players. Try asking a group in front of you to pick up play and chances are they'll ignore you, and caddies can't do much either. As for the marshal, if there is one, is there for the sake of having one than for any other purposes.

I agree with some of the posters here that it is not recommended to hit into the slow group in front of you eventhough I'm tempted to at times. You never know who the VIP might be in that group. It may be a general playing at the army course and you'll have a lot of explaning to do if want to return home in one piece

[Dr. Burrito]

Hmmm..... Wonder if Senior Burrito would have posted this if they were four white boys instead.

Hmm... I wonder if this is not the stupidest question I have ever read, but I guess I will address it.

I am not a racist golfer, I am simply an impatient with bad manners golfer, race being not a factor. That said, this is Thailand, not Los Angeles, Dallas, Omaha, London or St. Andrews, and the chances of playing behind a slow 4-ball of white guys here, unless you are on an outing with a group from a pub.... no pubs named to protect my drinking rights...., you are going to be behind slow Asian golfers (funny thing, but this is Asia after all) and in Thailand, it more than likely means slow Japanese or Koreans as the case may be, unless, unless of course, you are playing at the Army, Navy or Air Force courses, and well, then as others have said, sealed lips are more likely to get you home safely.

Also, I have yet to see very many tour buses full of Thai golfers pull up at a course, but I have seen tour buses full of Japanese golfers on a regular basis.

Simple math means you are going to be far more regularly behind a slow Asian of whatever nationality than a slow white guy. But, that said, I played in a pub day last week, and oh my Lord, I complained about slow white boy players to the organizer. Woo is me.... I must give up my Ku Klux Klan card I guess for having complained about a fellow member of the superior White face folk race of which I am clearly privileged to be a member.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

I tend to play away from Bkk and during weekdays and so not too many Koreans/Japanese. Thais play in big groups, but are normally good at letting me play thorugh. Sounds like I've been lucky.

I found the noise level to be the most annoying. No class some folk.

[chuckd]

Please excuse me for this personal note, but many years ago we were playing at Navatanee. A group of four Thais was incredibly slow and were agonizing over every shot.

One of our group, perhaps less patient than the others, hit into them.

They turned around and looked but did nothing other than leave one of them behind at the green to meet us when we came up. He merely lifted his shirt and showed us the butt end of his .9 mm, waggled his finger and said, "Don't do that again."

We didn't.

[Head Snake]

Please excuse me for this personal note, but many years ago we were playing at Navatanee. A group of four Thais was incredibly slow and were agonizing over every shot.

One of our group, perhaps less patient than the others, hit into them.

They turned around and looked but did nothing other than leave one of them behind at the green to meet us when we came up. He merely lifted his shirt and showed us the butt end of his .9 mm, waggled his finger and said, "Don't do that again."

We didn't.

You mean you left your glock at home and not in your bag???

Me, I woulda pointed at the odd guy out in our 4 some.

[tgeezer]

We went out to play this weekend at a local course that I have always loved and admired for both its quality of course and design, but also previously for its smart management. Sadly, I guess greed and shortsightedness have ruined the latter, and that simply ruins th experience.

We teed off in the morning with two groups ahead of us, the furthest out, a Thai group of elderly men with carts and the group in front of us, four Japanese men, two older, two younger.

Within about five holes, the older Thai guys were gone in the distance, while for the remainder of the day, we were stuck behind this Japanese foursome that were lucky to squirt the ball fifty yards at a go. Multiple practice swings, one foot from the hole ball markings and a general disregard for any form of etiquette. It took us six hours for the round.

We were fuming by the time this charade was over, had called the marshal (a sad joke of a job in Thailand) two times and nothing would cure it. The <deleted> simply refused to have any common sense or courtesy. They could have at least let us play through, but not even that.

To almost make matters worse, when we arrived at the 10th tee, the starter was about to let another group of Japanese golf tourist jam in-between us. As much as the three of us, all long time residents here, try to accommodate cultural differences, we couldn't let that one pass. One of my friends probably got into the starter more than the should have, but, ######, it was a sad example of them being greedy and trying to cram it as full as they could.

By the tee of the 18th, I simply had had enough. They had teed off, and predictably, one of them was about 75 yards from the teebox. After about 15 practice swings and waggles, he commenced to hit it another 50 yards or so. I loudly cheered his accomplishment with obvious sarcasm. He was of course, not pleased.

I reckon he got to the hole in about 8 swings. Now, I know we all have blowups holes, but complete blowups rounds on a Saturday when it is busy is simply too much. At least have the good grace to go as fast as you can where you can.

But playing here, especially on weekends, has sadly become a case of dodging Japanese tour buses or be stuck for hours. I know it cost a lot to play in Japan. I know it takes forever to get a tee time in Japan. But for mercy's sake, this crap has become too much.

Are any of you having this same problem and any luck solving it? I know that is probably as silly a question as I will ever ask.

Round over I complained to a member and was at least able to hear his round was just as slow. I did remind him he had paid for a membership and perhaps it would be better if he, rather than I, brought this issue up at a meeting soon.

Thank God my company lets me play during the week someimes

If your day is ruined then try laying up close to the green when they are all 'on' and be- there to watch intently and comment loudly on putting performance. This should put you in a position to watch and comment on the next Tee, it will ruin their day and they will probably let you go, hopefully you wont hit a 50 yard grounder.

[sibeymai]

I'm not an apologist for slow players or lack of ettiquette on the golf course. However, there's good reason why Koreans and Japanese might take so long. The social aspect of the game may have more importance to these players than anything else. The player holding the most senior position, if the group are employees, or the client if the relationship is customer based, will invariably win the round regardless of how good a player they are. The length of time the round takes may also be longer than usual if there are pressing business matters to resolve. None of this will sit nicely with the retired westerners in Thailand who play the game for sport or fun.

[MrSnrang]

I heard that the Japanese and Korean players play here to lower their handicap because they have to have a certain handicap in their home countries in order to play.

Whenever there are excessively-slow golfers in front have the caddies sort it out and if that doesn't work, I'm serious on this: As soon as they have made their tee shot and finished their second shot, drive right through them.

[tgeezer]

I heard that the Japanese and Korean players play here to lower their handicap because they have to have a certain handicap in their home countries in order to play.

Whenever there are excessively-slow golfers in front have the caddies sort it out and if that doesn't work, I'm serious on this: As soon as they have made their tee shot and finished their second shot, drive right through them.

I recommend reading 'The Rules of Golf' Section 1.' Also, I have known of caddies being held responsible for dangerous play of their player, you will often see Thai players on the tee asking the caddie's 'permission' to hit.

[Jai Dee]

Also, I have known of caddies being held responsible for dangerous play of their player, you will often see Thai players on the tee asking the caddie's 'permission' to hit.

That's very true... the caddies risk suspension if their player deliberately breaks the course rules.

[Spee]

My two baht worth ...

With respect to Japanese, it could be a simple matter that they are unaware of basic golf etiqutte as we know it and are used to practicing it. Many Japanese are genuine golf fanatics but the courses are relatively few, extremely expensive and simply hard to get to. Hence, a couple of things typically happen. One, most people can't afford to play golf at a course. "Going golfing" often means going to a rooftop range with four floors of teeboxes and hitting 100 balls into a net. Two, relatively rare private courses are not that crowded because it is so cost prohibitive. Players are allowed to play at their leisure, or as others have suggested, to entertain the boss or some valued clients. In other words, there is no emphasis on playing fast.

Some Korean players are just as bad (as I've experienced and some courses in the states), and frankly so are some of us good 'ol white boys. Golf in America sometimes means bringing a buggy and a case of beer to get drunk, and if it takes 5 or 6 hours, then so what. It's a day away from the wife and kids and a day out with all the boys. Now into my 4th season of UK golf, where a 4-ball group walks, carries their own bag and 4 1/2 hours walked is a slow round, I'm not sure if I would enjoy golf any other way.

My suggestion would be to get to know the course professional and other people that run the place. Suggest that they produce a simple page of 3 or 4 basic etiqutte guidelines, and do it in all common languages (e.g., Thai, Korean, Japanese, English, etc.). You could even make one for them and suggest it. If that doesn't work then you're probably stuck and you may want to try playing at off peak times. I would suspect that for a small "token of appreciation" you could find out when known slow groups are scheduled and try to get prime tee times ahead of them.

[Dr. Burrito]

Well, as relates to goold old boys, beer and slow golf in America, versus say, talking with the 'golf professionals' running the courses here, you hit the cruxif the issue.

In America, ######s playing slow are quickly corrected by the marsals, who have not the slightest whim about telling them to get their <deleted> in gear, or possibly not be invited back.

In Thailand, neither the starter nor the marshals are going to say word one to anybody for fear of the repurcussions.

As to their lack of knowledge, well, perhaps the case, but its pretty obvious what is going on about a course and if they can't use a bit of common sense to perceive that, I'm not sure a little booklet will matter.

I will though, take your suggestion and get one printed up myself as an example for the courses and see what their reaction is. It certainly can't hurt to try.

Dr. B

[Spee]

In Thailand, neither the starter nor the marshals are going to say word one to anybody for fear of the repurcussions.

....................

I will though, take your suggestion and get one printed up myself as an example for the courses and see what their reaction is. It certainly can't hurt to try.

It doesn't have to be much. Just one or two basic sentences that we see all the time in the west. "Keep up pace of play." Maybe a sign next to the 5th tee saying, "If it has taken you more than 1hr15min to reach this point, then please speed up."

There is one language that everyone understands and that is money. Faster play allows the course operator to get more groups out in any given day. Five and a half hour rounds versus five hour or even four and a half hour means there is room for several more additional paying customers per day. Over the course of a year, that can add up to a pretty serious amount of money. Faster play also gets people into "the 19th hole" faster and a lot of courses do as much business in the bar as they do in greens fees.

I would agree with you that this is not a very easy problem to solve, if it is fixable at all. But it seems like it is worth a try. It may help for them to understand or at least hear your problems, and they can also say their problems to you. If nothing else, it could help you reach some mutual understanding, get to know the local operators better, and potentially get you some better treatment over time.

There are also things that you can do to kill time while waiting. There are numerous numbers of little gambling games or practice games for a 2-ball or 4-ball to play while waiting on a teebox. Yeah sure it's not nearly as good as playing without waiting, but the idea is to make the best of a bad situation.

Without getting confrontational, unfortunately there isn't much other recourse other than to take your business somewhere else.