Are we just going to have to live with unvaccinated people across Thailand?

[ThLT]

7 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

No, the vaccines were around long before Omicron. 21 was worse than 20

I am not going to get into about their effectiveness. Everyone who had the vaccine and survived an infection later credits the vaccine. Its like a lucky amulet in Thailand.

Yeah, Omicron appeared in the later part of 2021. But the previous variants such as Delta were also more contagious than their predecessors. 

 

Quote

Delta’s quick growth rate has been especially dramatic, says F. Perry Wilson, MD, a Yale Medicine epidemiologist. Delta was spreading 50% faster than Alpha, which was 50% more contagious than the original strain of SARS-CoV-2, he says.

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-delta-variant-covid

[utalkin2me]

36 minutes ago, ThLT said:

They are working at preventing transmission, but aren't very effective at it.

You got this part exactly right. 

[onthedarkside]

A post with misleading claims has been removed.

 

[chalawaan]

No we are not going to have to live with them. Because if the eventual wave that gets them doesn't kill them the fifth wave or the next variant will. 

It just beggars belief there are still hold-outs who deny the data, who surely have to know that about five (FIVE!) anti-vax right wing shock-jocks are DEAD in the USA, yet still they dig in. I'll give them this, being willing to die for their beliefs is impressive. Not smart, but impressive all the same.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, blacksnow said:

Need a vaccine that is proven. The mRNA formulations are not achieving much of anything in terms of long term protection yet....up to this point. Why else is big pharma scrambling to mix up a batch of omicron specific solution with ETA mid year or later. The 2nd gen vaccinations are in the lab and no firm dates for rollout. Heck, pfizer phase 1/2/3 trials for both adults and children will run thru 2026 and boosters HAVE not been tested especially in children. Chill out and see it for what it is. If you are at risk go get poked. If not, there's a wide-body on the tarmac with your name on the seat.

There's no evidence that mRNA vaccines are not providing long term protection from serious disease and death.

[zzaa09]

The ever popular and mind numbing establishment narratives are crumbing...

[Saanim]

18 minutes ago, chalawaan said:

No we are not going to have to live with them. Because if the eventual wave that gets them doesn't kill them the fifth wave or the next variant will. 

It just beggars belief there are still hold-outs who deny the data, who surely have to know that about five (FIVE!) anti-vax right wing shock-jocks are DEAD in the USA, yet still they dig in. I'll give them this, being willing to die for their beliefs is impressive. Not smart, but impressive all the same.

It's quite difficult to follow the discussion and the way how the figures are applied (or manipulated?), how one should  orient oneself in the flow of the information (or misinformation?).

 

When you mentioned the dead in USA, does it mean that the million (almost) dead there were antivaxxer or just unvaccinated? The vaccination there is currently quite high, isn't it?  

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

No, the vaccines were around long before Omicron. 21 was worse than 20

I am not going to get into about their effectiveness. Everyone who had the vaccine and survived an infection later credits the vaccine. Its like a lucky amulet in Thailand.

Does the amulet research establishment have detailed records comparing the survival rate of amulet wearers vs non-wearers?

Do you understand that  the vaccine researchers have detailed record that show that on a percentage basis the vaccinated fare far better than the unvaccinated?

[ozimoron]

Just now, blacksnow said:

Double dose mRNA fizzled out quite low as detailed in UK ad DK studies. Vaccine effectiveness waned low and inn some cases neg results reported by Danes. The boosters bring up the protection and for how long is UNKNOWN since we can't predict the future. For context have a gander at UK-HSA death stats for dbl and tripled vaxxed, and you can see more deaths than the vaccinated in specific age cohorts. Same reports for ISRAEL, the 4th jab and looking not so encouraging. Why else is moderna and pfizer testing omicron specific solutions, certainly not because the current 1st gen vaxxes are so successful. And that is probably to be expected.

I believe that data is in relation to infections, not serious illness and deaths.

[chalawaan]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:38 AM, freedomnow said:

What about natural immunity after infection non-vaccinated status.....

 

....seems to count for nothing or barely be mentioned.

Because there's no such thing. It's a Coronavirus, it reinfects and shapeshifts endlessly like the common cold.

[chalawaan]

21 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

The ever popular and mind numbing establishment narratives are crumbing...

Funny how it took a virus to get you all rabble-roused! 

Where were you when the establishment declared several pointless foreign wars in our lifetimes, and drafted our sons? 

Where are you with the lies about all illegal drugs and the costs of waging war on them to all of us? If you think it doesn't effect you, start with insurance premiums for your cars and property! You wouldn't need half of it if the drugs were provided free by the government to the 3% that do 98% of the theiving for a fix. 

Where are you all on these proven evils? 

Nowhere. 

But get asked to inconvenience yourself slightly for the common good, and suddenly you're all pro-choice freedom-loving anti-eatablshment patriots! Give us a freaking break.

[cjinchiangrai]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:38 AM, freedomnow said:

What about natural immunity after infection non-vaccinated status.....

 

....seems to count for nothing or barely be mentioned.

The protocol is to still get vaccinated a few months afterwards.

[cjinchiangrai]

What the Thais do is difficult to control but all foreigners should be fully vaxxed for entry and to extend or renew their visas. If you are not going to participate in public health initiatives, get out.

 

[zzaa09]

16 minutes ago, chalawaan said:

Funny how it took a virus to get you all rabble-roused! 

Where were you when the establishment declared several pointless foreign wars in our lifetimes, and drafted our sons? 

Where are you with the lies about all illegal drugs and the costs of waging war on them to all of us? If you think it doesn't effect you, start with insurance premiums for your cars and property! You wouldn't need half of it if the drugs were provided free by the government to the 3% that do 98% of the theiving for a fix. 

Where are you all on these proven evils? 

Nowhere. 

But get asked to inconvenience yourself slightly for the common good, and suddenly you're all pro-choice freedom-loving anti-eatablshment patriots! Give us a freaking break.

.....and too many still don't get it. Quite obvious. 

[FarFlungFalang]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

There's no evidence that mRNA vaccines are not providing long term protection from serious disease and death.

That's right which is why nobody needs a booster?Why would people get boosters for if they are getting long term protection from 2 shots?Stupid Israel is doing number 4 shots?The vaccines have long term protection so they must have lost the plot like everyone else getting more than the initial double dose.Also all those stupid epidemiologist experts recommending boosters when there's no evidence that mRNA vaccines are not providing long term protection?We already know that breakthrough infections are extremely rare and that the vaccines are amazing at preventing infections so why are so many people getting boosters?

[ozimoron]

33 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

That's right which is why nobody needs a booster?Why would people get boosters for if they are getting long term protection from 2 shots?Stupid Israel is doing number 4 shots?The vaccines have long term protection so they must have lost the plot like everyone else getting more than the initial double dose.Also all those stupid epidemiologist experts recommending boosters when there's no evidence that mRNA vaccines are not providing long term protection?We already know that breakthrough infections are extremely rare and that the vaccines are amazing at preventing infections so why are so many people getting boosters?

There is evidence that a third shot significantly boosts antibodies well beyond what 2 shots does.

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, blacksnow said:

Double dose mRNA fizzled out quite low as detailed in UK ad DK studies. Vaccine effectiveness waned low and in some cases neg results reported by Danes. The boosters bring up the protection and for how long is UNKNOWN since we can't predict the future. For context have a gander at UK-HSA death stats for dbl and tripled vaxxed, and you can see more deaths than the vaccinated in specific age cohorts. Same reports for ISRAEL, the 4th jab and looking not so encouraging. Why else is moderna and pfizer testing omicron specific solutions, certainly not because the current 1st gen vaxxes are so successful. And that is probably to be expected.

How many times does it have to be explained to anti-vaxxers that gross numbers of vaccinated deaths vs. unvaccinated deaths mean nothing unless you know how many people are in each group? This is basic arithmetic. Does the word  "denominator" mean anything to you?

In fact in protecting against death and serious illness the vaccines are very successful. That doesn't mean they can't be made better.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, blacksnow said:

Double dose mRNA fizzled out quite low as detailed in UK ad DK studies. Vaccine effectiveness waned low and in some cases neg results reported by Danes. The boosters bring up the protection and for how long is UNKNOWN since we can't predict the future. For context have a gander at UK-HSA death stats for dbl and tripled vaxxed, and you can see more deaths than the vaccinated in specific age cohorts. Same reports for ISRAEL, the 4th jab and looking not so encouraging. Why else is moderna and pfizer testing omicron specific solutions, certainly not because the current 1st gen vaxxes are so successful. And that is probably to be expected.

1st generation vaccines were effective against the variants they were designed to.  They are less effective against later variants, but still provide excellent protection against serious illness and death.

 

New vaccines are being developed because the response to the virus must evolve as the virus evolves.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

How many times does it have to be explained to anti-vaxxers that gross numbers of vaccinated deaths vs. unvaccinated deaths mean nothing unless you know how many people are in each group? This is basic arithmetic. Does the word  "denominator" mean anything to you?

In fact in protecting against death and serious illness the vaccines are very successful. That doesn't mean they can't be made better.

They already know. They are just repeating far right talking points.

[pomchop]

1 hour ago, DoctorB said:

Since we have been repeatedly told that vaccination does not prevent one catching the virus, or passing it on, what different does it make to another person whether one has been vaccinated or not? It protects the vaccinated person from serious illness. In practice governments have tried to have it both ways; down playing the vaccines to keep one set of restrictions in place and making vaccination mandatory to impose another set of restrictions.

repeatedly told by whom?  some obscure web crackpots site or fox news?.

 

.i'll trust john hopkins who clearly state that the vaccines LOWER the chance of getting covid 19.

 

From John Hopkins

 

An effective vaccine will protect someone who receives it by lowering the chance of getting COVID-19 if the person encounters the coronavirus. More important is whether the vaccine prevents serious illness, hospitalization and death.  At this time, all three vaccines are highly efficacious at preventing serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19.  Widespread vaccination means the coronavirus will not infect as many people. This will limit spread through communities and will restrict the virus’s opportunity to continue to mutate into new variants.

[richard_smith237]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:39 AM, DoctorB said:

 

 

The NEJM published information that the BNT162b2 vaccine is 70% effective against Omicron, meanwhile the same study showed that the BNT162b2 vaccine was 93% effective against its comparator (pre-covid variants including Delta). 

 

Now... you’re a Doctor, right?... you should understand the implications of that...  that the difference is on a societal level, not just an individual level.

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270

 

[DoctorB]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

That depends how you cherry pick your information. 

 

The NEJM published information that the BNT162b2 vaccine is 70% effective against Omicron, meanwhile the same study showed that the BNT162b2 vaccine was 93% effective against its comparator (pre-covid variants including Delta). 

 

Now... you’re a Doctor, right?... you should understand the implications of that...  that the difference is on a societal level, not just an individual level.

 

 

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270

 

Actually the article you cite shows the effectiveness of the vaccine against hospitalisation which I would never deny. And no I am not a medical doctor and get my information mostly from UK press and main stream media not medical journals per se.  I am also triple vaxed and would advise others to be so but the fact is that in the UK the message has been that the vaccines prevent serious illness, not getting it or passing it on. My argument is against mixed messaging by officialdom not against vaccination.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, DoctorB said:

Actually the article you cite shows the effectiveness of the vaccine against hospitalisation which I would never deny. And no I am not a medical doctor and get my information mostly from UK press and main stream media not medical journals per se.  I am also triple vaxed and would advise others to be so but the fact is that in the UK the message has been that the vaccines prevent serious illness, not getting it or passing it on. My argument is against mixed messaging by officialdom not against vaccination.

The vaccines do prevent infection very well for delta and around half for omicron. Stop spreading the party misinformation.

[DoctorB]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

The vaccines do prevent infection very well for delta and around half for omicron. Stop spreading the party misinformation.

OK I accept the point you have made and I have no objections whatever to being vaccinated. But, I have had 2 AZ shots and one pfizer, so why do I need 3 expensive PCR tests, 2 nights in an overpriced SHA+ hotel room and special insurance that is clearly a scam just to enter Thailand? Why can I not visit friends in New Zealand and why is Australia only now thinking about opening up to fully vaccinated tourists when it's estimated that over 90% of their population has already been jabbed? This is what I mean by mixed messaging. I will stress again that it's not vaccination that I object to but the fact that whatever one does it's never enough for officialdom. It's not Fox News or social media numpties that undermine faith in the vaccines, it's the remorseless insistence on petty-fogging (and expensive) restrictions, regardless of ones vaccination status that does it.

[Aussie999]

On 2/6/2022 at 3:10 PM, Bkk Brian said:

Yes ok, I thought that is what your point was and thats why I responded. 

 

Like I said, a business owner cannot control what anyone does outside of his premises but he can take control within his domain. Rather like a car driver can insist that a passenger wears their seat belt even if that passenger normally jumps in the back of a truck at other times.

 

Hotel business owners in Thailand  routinely ask for vaccination proof before accepting a booking. My wife is a business owner and deleted an email this morning from a guy from the US who wanted to come to Thailand and rent one of our villas for a couple of weeks. However he stated he refused to be vaccinated and asked her the best method for entering the country.

SMH, you still miss my point.

[MSMU1993]

Being vaccinated keeps you from getting sicker.  It doesn't keep you from getting the virus, and doesn't keep you from passing the virus on. (the reason why mandates and restrictions should be lifted at this point) Everyone in Thailand at this point has had the chance to get vaccinated.  Those who haven't are taking a risk, and it is their risk to take - but I do think the health insurance companies (or the state) would be in line to charge those who refuse vaccination for the treatment costs - since they are essentially victims of a self inflicted wound. 

[Aussie999]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:33 AM, alextrat1966 said:

Sure, everyone has the right not to take the vaccine. But so do business owners have the right not to let unvaccinated people enter their businesses, or fly aboard their airplanes, and so do countries have the right not to let the unvaccinated enter. 

 

Any choice you make in life, has consequences (no matter in regards to vaccines or not). If you freely make a choice, you must manly take the consequences. 

What affect, do unvaccinated people, have on any business? If you cannot answer with "NO," then please tell us why.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, MSMU1993 said:

Being vaccinated keeps you from getting sicker.  It doesn't keep you from getting the virus, and doesn't keep you from passing the virus on. (the reason why mandates and restrictions should be lifted at this point) Everyone in Thailand at this point has had the chance to get vaccinated.  Those who haven't are taking a risk, and it is their risk to take - but I do think the health insurance companies (or the state) would be in line to charge those who refuse vaccination for the treatment costs - since they are essentially victims of a self inflicted wound. 

More of the same misinformation. The vaccine does prevent many, if not most, infections

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Aussie999 said:

What affect, do unvaccinated people, have on any business? If you cannot answer with "NO," then please tell us why.

Businesses are places where people congregate in close proximity, especially pubs, clubs, cafes and food outlets.  The staff have a heightened risk of becoming infected and too ill to work. The public have greater confidence of not being infected when they go there and so fewer will tend to avoid the place.

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, DoctorB said:

OK I accept the point you have made and I have no objections whatever to being vaccinated. But, I have had 2 AZ shots and one pfizer, so why do I need 3 expensive PCR tests, 2 nights in an overpriced SHA+ hotel room and special insurance that is clearly a scam just to enter Thailand? Why can I not visit friends in New Zealand and why is Australia only now thinking about opening up to fully vaccinated tourists when it's estimated that over 90% of their population has already been jabbed? This is what I mean by mixed messaging. I will stress again that it's not vaccination that I object to but the fact that whatever one does it's never enough for officialdom. It's not Fox News or social media numpties that undermine faith in the vaccines, it's the remorseless insistence on petty-fogging (and expensive) restrictions, regardless of ones vaccination status that does it.

Thailand does not have 90% vaccinated and until they do the risk of hospitalisations overwhelming the health system, causing staff shortages through illness and overwork and destroying public confidence is great. Australia's case load was low until we opened the borders without quarantine then it exploded. It is more expensive to support an overwhelmed hospital system than it is to impose restrictions. Australia's economy did fairly well during the lock downs but tanked when omicron infections exploded because people simply would not risk infection even when they knew the risk was lower for the omicron variant.