Are we just going to have to live with unvaccinated people across Thailand?

[placeholder]

29 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Then, you obviously neither know why there are so many people demonstrating in streets? 

Wow! So many! How many is "so many"? How many are not demonstrating in streets?

[300sd]

53 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Wow! So many! How many is "so many"? How many are not demonstrating in streets?

The sheep

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 hours ago, AndyFoxy said:

Can you explain the case of Israel please? One of the most vaccinated countries on Earth yet they are having more COVID deaths than ever before.

 

Some evidence and explanation here:

 

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/MAGAZINE-january-s-omicron-wave-shows-just-how-much-has-changed-in-israel-1.10583872

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

 

The meaningful questions to ask and get answered would be:

 

--What is the COVID death rate among the unvaccinated in Israel

--What is the COVID death rate among those with old vaccinations in Israel

--What is the COVID death rate among the fully vaxed and boosted in Israel

 

The first two charts above begin to suggest what the likely answers to those questions would be.

 

 

 

[AndyFoxy]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Some evidence and explanation here:

 

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/MAGAZINE-january-s-omicron-wave-shows-just-how-much-has-changed-in-israel-1.10583872

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

 

The meaningful questions to ask and get answered would be:

 

--What is the COVID death rate among the unvaccinated in Israel

--What is the COVID death rate among those with old vaccinations in Israel

--What is the COVID death rate among the fully vaxed and boosted in Israel

 

The first two charts above begin to suggest what the likely answers to those questions would be.

 

 

 

Thanks

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Wow! So many! How many is "so many"? How many are not demonstrating in streets?

Do you mean that a demonstration has no meaning if not all population (100%) is in the streets? 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Then, you obviously neither know why there are so many people demonstrating in streets? 

Identify the demonstrations you are referring to and I'm sure I'll be able to tell why they are demonstrating.  I seriously doubt the demonstrations are about forced vaccinations.

[placeholder]

44 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Do you mean that a demonstration has no meaning if not all population (100%) is in the streets? 

Are you claiming that these demonstrators are representative of the entire population? Most of the population?

[placeholder]

35 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Identify the demonstrations you are referring to and I'm sure I'll be able to tell why they are demonstrating.  I seriously doubt the demonstrations are about forced vaccinations.

Well, in Germany there is a serious debate in the Parliament about whether or not vaccines should be mandatory. In France, the govt made life difficult for the non-vaccinated by requiring vaccine passports. Austria has actually made vaccines mandatory. In all 3 nations there have been lots of protests. But they are representative only of a minority of citizens. 

[ThLT]

15 hours ago, heybruce said:

I routinely described the study as showing that people who were not vaccinated as being one and a half times more likely to get infected.  You are the one who keeps going on about 150% more effective.

 

????????????

You said: "I said 1.5x, and you are the one who keeps going on about 150%."

 

For an engineer who apparently studied mathematics, you're not too good at mathematics. ????

 

1.5x and 150% are the exact same thing.

 

15 hours ago, heybruce said:

Also, one and a half times more likely to get infected is much less misleading than continually stating 25% and 38% without mentioning the data of which the percentage is based on.  Accusing me of being "misleading and disingenuous" for not referring back to the original study while you also failed to do so is misleading and disingenuous.

Saying the original study says 25% infection of vaccinated and 38% for unvaccinated—and posting the direct link to the study almost every single time is misleading?

 

No, saying something like "it's 1.5x better!" is misleading. Exactly like saying "I'm 2x richer than you, since you have a dollar and I have two!"

 

15 hours ago, heybruce said:

Yes, taxes pay for the vaccinations.  They also pay for the unvaccinated who are treated in hospital, which is far more expensive than getting vaccinated.

Wrong, yet again. ???? Taxes don't pay for COVID care for foreigners. Insurance does.

[heybruce]

27 minutes ago, ThLT said:

????????????

You said: "I said 1.5x, and you are the one who keeps going on about 150%."

 

For an engineer who apparently studied mathematics, you're not too good at mathematics. ????

 

1.5x and 150% are the exact same thing.

 

Saying the original study says 25% infection of vaccinated and 38% for unvaccinated—and posting the direct link to the study almost every single time is misleading?

 

No, saying something like "it's 1.5x better!" is misleading. Exactly like saying "I'm 2x richer than you, since you have a dollar and I have two!"

 

Wrong, yet again. ???? Taxes don't pay for COVID care for foreigners. Insurance does.

For someone who won't admit you are wrong, you aren't very good at keeping track of your arguments. 

 

I was replying to your post on page 9 of this topic:

 

"But people who have no understanding of statistics are surprised when they see a big number, or when someone says "it's 150% more effective."

 

You implied I used "a big number" to mislead people.  I pointed out that I used "one and a half".  You are the one who routinely used 150.  Therefore, you are the one who tried to mislead people by using a big number.  You also don't give the readers credit for much intelligence.  I'm sure they've noticed that about you.

 

Also, as I have explained many times, describing a 38% infection rate as one and a half times as great as a 25% infection rate is more informative than describing the difference as "only" 13%, which is your preferred approach.

 

Using my logic, I would recognize an investment earning 10% a year as being twice as good as one earning 5% a year, while you would maintain they are essentially the same since there is only a 5% difference.

 

Wrong, yet again. ???? Taxes pay for most of the cost of Covid care for Thai citizens.  There are a lot more Thai citizens in Thailand than foreigners.  Treatment of Covid and most other diseases is much more expensive than prevention.

Edited February 5, 2022 by heybruce

[pedro01]

50 minutes ago, ThLT said:

????????????

You said: "I said 1.5x, and you are the one who keeps going on about 150%."

 

For an engineer who apparently studied mathematics, you're not too good at mathematics. ????

 

1.5x and 150% are the exact same thing.

 

Saying the original study says 25% infection of vaccinated and 38% for unvaccinated—and posting the direct link to the study almost every single time is misleading?

 

No, saying something like "it's 1.5x better!" is misleading. Exactly like saying "I'm 2x richer than you, since you have a dollar and I have two!"

 

Wrong, yet again. ???? Taxes don't pay for COVID care for foreigners. Insurance does.

Nope.

 

I have COVID, in Bangkok, right now. My choice to stay at home or not. I decided home and a nurse came round with meds.

 

Nobody asked for money. Its free.

 

The wife made the calls and shes got it too but i am being treated well, the wife has to send my O2, pulse, temp a few times a day.

 

I am from UK and am being treated way better than people there.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by pedro01

[Saanim]

19 hours ago, heybruce said:

Identify the demonstrations you are referring to and I'm sure I'll be able to tell why they are demonstrating.  I seriously doubt the demonstrations are about forced vaccinations.

How do you want me to identify the demonstrations? There are every weekend in Europe in many larger cities - as mentioned above -- there were also in Australia not so small. 

 

And currently, there is a big problem with truckers in Canada (about forced vaccination), gathering in Ottawa, followed somehow also in USA.  Probably, you will not get to see it in headlines of media you like to listen to.   

[ThLT]

32 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

Nobody asked for money. Its free.

They brought meds (like.... Tylenol?), while you are at home? You consider that "COVID treatment"?

If you need hospital care for COVID, it won't be free. Especially if you end up in the ICU. Thai people aren't paying for expats' and tourists' COVID hospital bill.

 

Why do you think COVID insurance is a requirement for foreigners? Not free.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by ThLT

[ozimoron]

9 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

My point was to follow the science aka Dr Fauci which is what you're preaching here is not always the right move. Just because I've been vaxxed doesn't mean I can't question Fauci's motives at times. Science isn't without flaws.

Can you name one thing he has said that you agree with?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

February 01, 2022

Hospitalization rate 23 times higher for unvaccinated vs. boosted during omicron

Data from Los Angeles County during the omicron surge showed that the COVID-19 hospitalization rate was 23 times higher among people who were unvaccinated compared with people who had received a COVID-19 vaccine series and booster.

 

Moreover, the COVID-19 incidence rate was 3.6 times higher among the unvaccinated compared with people who were boosted, Phoebe Danza, MPH, supervising epidemiologist at the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health, and colleagues reported in MMWR.

...

As of Jan. 8, in the midst of the omicron surge, incidence (6,743.5 per 100,000) and hospitalization (187.8 per 100,000) rates remained highest in those who were unvaccinated. Again, incidence (1,889 per 100,000) and hospitalization (8.2 per 100,000) remained lowest in those who were fully vaccinated with a booster dose.

 

(more)

 

https://www.healio.com/news/infectious-disease/20220201/hospitalization-rate-23-times-higher-for-unvaccinated-vs-boosted-during-omicron

 

 

[FarFlungFalang]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

No business owners are telling anyone that they must get vaccinated. Only that if they want to enter their establishments must they be vaccinated. The unvaccinated are free to patronize other establishments.

So you are saying that business owners are saying they must get vaccinated to enter their establishments right after saying no business owners are saying they must get vaccinated?Which one is it?Talk about covering all the bases!How can business owners be saying what you said they weren't saying and if they are saying what you said they weren't saying aren't they saying what you said they weren't saying?Are you confused?

[BostonRob2]

I couldn't give a monkeys whether people get vaxxed or not. Just let all the children back in school.

 

Pretty please.

[FarFlungFalang]

16 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

February 01, 2022

Hospitalization rate 23 times higher for unvaccinated vs. boosted during omicron

Data from Los Angeles County during the omicron surge showed that the COVID-19 hospitalization rate was 23 times higher among people who were unvaccinated compared with people who had received a COVID-19 vaccine series and booster.

 

Moreover, the COVID-19 incidence rate was 3.6 times higher among the unvaccinated compared with people who were boosted, Phoebe Danza, MPH, supervising epidemiologist at the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health, and colleagues reported in MMWR.

...

As of Jan. 8, in the midst of the omicron surge, incidence (6,743.5 per 100,000) and hospitalization (187.8 per 100,000) rates remained highest in those who were unvaccinated. Again, incidence (1,889 per 100,000) and hospitalization (8.2 per 100,000) remained lowest in those who were fully vaccinated with a booster dose.

 

(more)

 

https://www.healio.com/news/infectious-disease/20220201/hospitalization-rate-23-times-higher-for-unvaccinated-vs-boosted-during-omicron

 

 

Have you got any figures on people who are not vaccinated but have recovered from a previous infection?Perhaps we should distinguish between the two instead of lumping them all together, after all those who have recovered from a previous infection and are "unvaccinated" have been shown to have better protection than vaccinated people with no previous infection.If people are being restricted from certain activities based purely on vaccination status and not on their protection status then that just doesn't make scientific sense to me.

 

FIGURE. Incident laboratory-confirmed COVID-19-associated hospitalizations among immunologic cohorts defined by vaccination and previous diagnosis histories — California, May 30–November 13, 2021*^,†

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm#contribAff

 

[Credo]

Sadly this whole discussion could have been moot had everyone gotten the vaccine in a timely manner.  Any farmer or rancher knows that when you vaccinate cattle, you vaccinate the entire herd.  That's how vaccines work.  If you don't protect all the cattle, you are putting a lot at risk.  That's exactly what we've seen with Covid.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

So you are saying that business owners are saying they must get vaccinated to enter their establishments right after saying no business owners are saying they must get vaccinated?Which one is it?Talk about covering all the bases!How can business owners be saying what you said they weren't saying and if they are saying what you said they weren't saying aren't they saying what you said they weren't saying?Are you confused?

I think the English is crystal clear. But let me try it another way. Owners don't have the authority to force people to get vaccinated. But they do have the right to keep the unvaccinated out of their establishments.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Credo said:

Sadly this whole discussion could have been moot had everyone gotten the vaccine in a timely manner.  Any farmer or rancher knows that when you vaccinate cattle, you vaccinate the entire herd.  That's how vaccines work.  If you don't protect all the cattle, you are putting a lot at risk.  That's exactly what we've seen with Covid.

In this case, it's the lemmings who are most at risk.

[salavan]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:30 AM, talahtnut said:

After the UK Prime Ministers partygate fiasco it appears that

all the 'high up' people in government have no fear of the deadly covid 19.

Unsurprisingly, restrictions are now mostly lifted for the people,

 

They are the ruling classes they have the right to do what they want the oiks do as they are told

[ThLT]

20 hours ago, heybruce said:

For someone who won't admit you are wrong, you aren't very good at keeping track of your arguments. 

 

I was replying to your post on page 9 of this topic:

 

"But people who have no understanding of statistics are surprised when they see a big number, or when someone says "it's 150% more effective."

 

You implied I used "a big number" to mislead people.  I pointed out that I used "one and a half".  You are the one who routinely used 150.  Therefore, you are the one who tried to mislead people by using a big number.  You also don't give the readers credit for much intelligence.  I'm sure they've noticed that about you.

 

Also, as I have explained many times, describing a 38% infection rate as one and a half times as great as a 25% infection rate is more informative than describing the difference as "only" 13%, which is your preferred approach.

 

Using my logic, I would recognize an investment earning 10% a year as being twice as good as one earning 5% a year, while you would maintain they are essentially the same since there is only a 5% difference.

 

Wrong, yet again. ???? Taxes pay for most of the cost of Covid care for Thai citizens.  There are a lot more Thai citizens in Thailand than foreigners.  Treatment of Covid and most other diseases is much more expensive than prevention.

Regardless of what you say, or twist things around by using misleading ways of re-expressing the study results to fit your liking (ironically, similarly to what anti-vaxxers do), like the study results say:

- If being unvaccinated means 38% will get infected.

- And being vaccinated means 25% will get infected.

 

Yes, that's a 1.5x improvement. It's mathematically correct to say that.

 

However, that's still an awful performance of a vaccine for protecting against transmission/infection. And yes, a vaccine doesn't require to fully protect against transmission/infection... but it's still a fact that the current vaccines are awful for protecting against transmission/infection. 

But you'll probably conjure up some answer to say they're absolutely awesome at protecting against transmission/infection? Or pointlessly re-state that vaccines don't require to protect against transmission/infection, right?

 

[Bkk Brian]

One of the worlds largest real time studies on covid cases and symptoms is the Zoe app which has nearly 5 million contributors with a million weekly updates from them every week. Funded by the UK gov it gives real time data and statistics.

 

On the question of non vaccinated but with previous infection immunity vs Omicron here is what it says.

 

"Many people have also previously had COVID, providing a certain amount of protection (although less than vaccination), which all adds up to a higher base level of immunity than we’ve had in previous waves."

 

“Furthermore, variants do not emerge in a linear way, and the two variants that are the most different from each other are Delta and Omicron. This means that even if you were infected by Delta and are still unvaccinated, you aren't very well protected from Omicron."

 

This is the latest update 4th Feb that has some very interesting points and statistics from the real experts with good data.

 

What does Omicron mean for the future of COVID?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Saanim said:

How do you want me to identify the demonstrations? There are every weekend in Europe in many larger cities - as mentioned above -- there were also in Australia not so small. 

 

And currently, there is a big problem with truckers in Canada (about forced vaccination), gathering in Ottawa, followed somehow also in USA.  Probably, you will not get to see it in headlines of media you like to listen to.   

You're right. I won't see it in headlines of media I like to listen to. I've noticed that those on the political right seem to read very rarely. Instead they get their news from videos and podcasts. Not really great sources if you want to fact check but great if you want to be emotionally riled up. But I have read plenty about those truckers. As for how most Canadians feel about those truckers...

 

Majority of Canadians polled support healthcare fines for unvaccinated, survey finds

Just over 60 per cent of Canadians recently polled are on board with the implementation of fines for the unvaccinated, such as a healthcare tax, similar to the one Québec Premier François Legault announced on Tuesday.

Legault said that adults in Québec who refuse to be vaccinated against COVID-19 would be forced to pay a “significant” financial penalty. The fine would be the first of its kind in Canada and apply to unvaccinated residents who don’t have a medical exemption.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/01/12/canada-poll-unvaccinated-fines/

 

Majority of Canadians don't have sympathy for unvaccinated who get sick from COVID: poll

The majority of Canadians, 66 per cent, believe in mandatory vaccinations for everybody five years of age and older, but over 80 per cent believe the country should allow for exemptions. Seventy-seven per cent believe the exemptions should be those with legitimate and diagnosed medical reasons.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/01/19/unvaccinated-vaccinated-covid19-opinion-polls/

[placeholder]

17 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Regardless of what you say, or twist things around by using misleading ways of re-expressing the study results to fit your liking (ironically, similarly to what anti-vaxxers do), like the study results say:

- If being unvaccinated means 38% will get infected.

- And being vaccinated means 25% will get infected.

 

Yes, that's a 1.5x improvement. It's mathematically correct to say that.

 

However, that's still an awful performance of a vaccine for protecting against transmission/infection. And yes, a vaccine doesn't require to fully protect against transmission/infection... but it's still a fact that the current vaccines are awful for protecting against transmission/infection. 

But you'll probably conjure up some answer to say they're absolutely awesome at protecting against transmission/infection? Or pointlessly re-state that vaccines don't require to protect against transmission/infection, right? Any answer to avoid the very point being made?

 

Next you you know, you'll ask him what does 2+2 equal and he'll conjure up some answer like  "4".

You think that by anticipating a point you somehow make it pointless?

You think that by calling the vaccines "awful for protection against transmission/infection" that means they're awful vaccines? That it's a relatively minor point that they are brilliant at protecting against death and serious illness?

[ThLT]

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You think that by calling the vaccines "awful for protection against transmission/infection" that means they're awful vaccines? That it's a relatively minor point that they are brilliant at protecting against death and serious illness?

No. You're making stuff up. Things I didn't say.

And I did say they are good at protecting against death and serious illness.

[onthedarkside]

Two posts with links to disallowed social media content have been removed, including one that also misrepresented the date of the content. Per the forum's rules:

 

Social Media content is acceptable in most social forums. However, in factual areas such as news, current affairs and health topics, it cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or government agency, and must include a weblink to the original source.

 

Also a trolling post using a mangled version of the Thai PM's name.

 

[rabang]

On 2/4/2022 at 1:17 AM, bluejets said:

I think those that don't get vaccinated are just a bunch of <deleted> with no thought for anyone but themselves.

Eventually I believe they will reconsider, as it already has become, no vaccination, no air travel, no visiting age care facilities, not allowed on public transport etc. etc.

 

Where has this happened? Yes I know there are some countries with these rules but equally there are many others that have dropped the restrictions to all. This kind of surveillance will eventually prove to be unnecessary and just not cost effective.

[sleepwalker999]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:30 AM, RandiRona said:

Yes, people have right to decide what is right for them. I am not against vaccination and double vaccinated but I decide what I take and what I wont. Please respect other people decision to not take it for whatever reason. They are still human.

No, no I won't respect their choice. It is selfish and based on nothing scientific. If people want to remain unvaccinated, please stop using doctors and hospitals  since you seem to know more than what you have been told already fifty <deleted> times.