Hiring a Lawyer/Going to Court advices?

[ESLTeacher1989]

Backstory

 

So I had a bottle of drain cleaner which I forgot to put the lid on my washing machine - on my balcony - I live on a top floor condo

 

Well the wind blew it over - overnight - and two cars below, are now covered in stains which cannot be removed...........both will have to be repainted.........I am guessing a full repaint for both..........Parts on car apparently have to be replaced also.

 

What evidence they have: A picture of a fallen over water bottle on my balcony (I put drain cleaner in another bottle to dilute it more)...............some pictures of white marks falling down from the balcony

 

Here's the catch.....the swimming pool is just above my condo and leaks all the time (I have video footage) and leaks onto cars below..........there are the same white marks all around the walls on my condo (Have photo evidence) not just below my condo where they think the drain cleaner fluid spilt............Does anyone know if swimming pool water can cause white marks which cannot be cleaned on a car/ is swimming pool chlorine corrosive to car paint

 

-------

Car no 1: Honda SUV: Nearly all damage on the roof, some damage on the sides - Yet they are asking for total 50,000 baht + VAT for repairs at Hondo service centre.....they want to repair many pieces of the car even though the sides are hardly effected atoll

 

Car no 2: Haven't heard anything back yet.......it's old car probably worth circa 100k baht second hand but is more cosmetically damaged than car no 1

 

--------

 

Tomorrow I will go to the police station to meet the own of Car no 1..................I would be happy to settle with the owner for 30k baht cash upfront...............but 50k baht seems too much and they are trying to get as much money out of me as possible.

 

Although I admit it's much more likely the drain cleaner that caused the damage to the car..............there's a small chance the swimming pool water could have actually been the cause

 

-----If the owner dosen't settle for 30k cash, and decides to go the lawyer route and sue me............what are my options?

 

1)Do I have to get/pay for a lawyer in return to fight my case.......how much do you estimate  that would come too..........how long would the court case take do you think?

2) Could I  just represent myself in court and not pay any lawyer costs................so that even if I lose I would only pay the amount the court asks me too?

3) If they win the court case......................would I have to pay for my fees and their lawyer fees also?

4) I'm on a COVID extension and it runs out 25th of february, and could be rejected for next extension..........what would happen to the case if I leave the country to UK and then try to come back into thailand............would I be banned from Thailand for life..........or only until I pay what the court settles on the amount to the owner?

 

Thanks.........sorry for the long text

[DaRoadrunner]

Settle out of court to avoid paying police, lawyers fees, court fees.

 

Insist on a bodyshop estimate for the paint job, don't just pay what they ask. Repainting costs around 3,000 Baht / panel.

 

Forget representing yourself in court. Knowledge of court procedures and language problem (all court cases are heard in Thai language).

 

Forget doing a runner. You could get black listed by immigration and caught on return to Thailand.

[hanuman2543]

If you are sued by them it is possible that the court will not allow that you leave Thailand. Keep in mind that the whole case can last quite long and there is always the possibility of an appeal to a higher court.

 

Remember a case of 2 foreigners who have to stay here around 5 years because of damage in a condo they rented.

Edited February 16, 2022 by hanuman2543

[ChaiyaTH]

53 minutes ago, hanuman2543 said:

If you are sued by them it is possible that the court will not allow that you leave Thailand. Keep in mind that the whole case can last quite long and there is always the possibility of an appeal to a higher court.

 

Remember a case of 2 foreigners who have to stay here around 5 years because of damage in a condo they rented.

It is a civil case, if the police even takes the report into action is a small chance. A court case would cost them more than the damage. Police will take action if they know to get a cut while dealing there.

Would not go to the police station at all, just deal with them directly and finish it. And if you doubt this and that, want to hire and expert, defense lawyer + endless time, good luck ????

 

Anyways, the 50K isn't that bad too, if they told you 25-30K after a court case, you still lost 75K more (at least) on the lawyer, time etc. The second car would be cheaper, and still less than the previous worst case total if going lawyer and court. And you are guilty anyway right, so you lose this money left or right.

 

If they do talk to you, or even if not, just ask bodyshops for a quote based on the model as reference. Take in consideration damage repayment includes lost time of them, or the fact they need a replacement car for X duration too.

 

To finish, as mentioned before in another of your topics, you failed by not getting a very affordable liability insurance, in some modern countries that is even a crime itself. Sort that first and see it as a very lucky lesson, you could also have damaged a 3M baht mercedes.

 

To leave 25th and not sort it beforehand? Very bad idea.

Edited February 16, 2022 by ChaiyaTH

[bluebluewater]

Using $US @ 33/baht -     20,000 Bt / 33 = $606.  I think I would be happy to see this problem behind me for $600 bucks.  No fuss, no muss, no lawyer, no civil courts, done and dusted just like that.  And you get to sleep like a baby.

 

Talk them down if you can but go in there knowing that is your max loss (at least on car #1) and you will be a happy man.

 

Good luck

[Kwasaki]

I had a front fender and a passenger door repaired then resprayed by a proffesional auto bodywork repair & re-spray workshop.

4000 baht.

[ChaiyaTH]

Just now, Kwasaki said:

I had a front fender and a passenger door repaired then resprayed by a proffesional auto bodywork repair & re-spray workshop.

4000 baht.

I had a 3000 baht apartment, until I moved to the central district of Bangkok too.

[dj230]

Not sure how Thai courts work but a picture of a water bottle wouldn't hold up in any court in America for proving you damaged someones car...unless you admitted to it, which you are doing here.

Edited February 16, 2022 by dj230

[blackcab]

Short answer: Just pay gracefully and apologise. They are not asking well over the odds.

 

Long answer:

 

1. See answer 2.

 

2. Can you speak high-level Thai including understanding Thai legal phrases? Do you know about Court of the First Instance procedure in detail? Cases are conducted exclusively in Thai.

 

3. The Court can order you to pay five per cent of the total monetary claim against you towards the costs of the other party, assuming the Court doesn't order otherwise. If the Court does order otherwise then it will cost you more to challenge the Court's decision.

 

4. You would be the responding party to a Court case. If you can prove this you should be able to get an extension on this basis. @ubonjoe will be able to clarify this for you.

 

My very best advice: Just pay the 50k. Live and learn. You could try to politely negotiate at the police station, but remember that the police might well expect you to tip your hat in their direction for serving as the referee.

 

Please keep us updated; this sort of situation could happen to anyone and your outcome will be a lesson for all.

[OneMoreFarang]

4 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Insist on a bodyshop estimate for the paint job, don't just pay what they ask. Repainting costs around 3,000 Baht / panel.

Did you ever ask a professional how much it cost to professionally respray the roof of a car (and maybe additionally some other parts)? 

If I would own a nice car with original paint then I wouldn't want a cheap Somchai shop to repair it and my car loses a lot of value.

I understand that the OP doesn't want to spend more than necessary. But professional work is not cheap - even in Thailand.

 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

Invite to your condo, over a beer admit your mistakes with lots of "sorry". Start your negotiation with 30K and see how far he is going to comedown. You already know his upper limit. I would avoid going to the police station for negotiation where you will be the only one not speaking Thai. 

[steven100]

As the comment above says ....   avoid getting the police involved if you can,  because it may cost you more.

Certainly avoid the courts, lawyers etc .....    very costly and long time.

 

Get them in for a beer & snacks,  plenty of wai's ....  start chatting ,  negotiate down, be nice , more wai's ,  your poor and don't have much cash spare .....  bla   bla ....  bla .

[ESLTeacher1989]

What happens if they hire a lawyer............but I don't hire a lawyer...........is that possible................and I just turn up to court?

[mvdf]

Settle extrajudicially and be done with it. The stress, hassles, costs (of lawyers hungry for income in these lean times) and lasting mental trauma of a court case (which can turn uglier and more expensive if it goes on and on till the cows come home) at a time when there are other stressful factors to contend with (second hand effects of Covid etc) are all best avoided. Comes at a price slightly more than your envisaged 30k budget but in return you get closure and peace of mind.

 

Give lawyers, courts and other third parties a wide berth.  

[4MyEgo]

8 hours ago, ESLTeacher1989 said:

Well the wind blew it over - overnight - and two cars below, are now covered in stains which cannot be removed...........both will have to be repainted.........I am guessing a full repaint for both..........Parts on car apparently have to be replaced also.

Ok, so it's your fault and you are prepared to pay for the reasonable costs, however if you go to the police station, there will be some dipstick assistant lawyer wanna be lawyer there who will try to be firm and hit you with the ifs and buts about going to court.

 

My wife went to the police station on a different matter, they started with 30,000, she ended up telling them you either take 5,000 or lets go to court, end of story, the wanna be said then you will go to court, fine she said, upped and left and as soon as the door closed behind her, the other party called out, ok, will take the 5,000 baht, then the paperwork was done, and signed.

 

What I would suggest for you, is to be reasonable as it is your fault as you are aware, I wouldn't make mention of when your expiry date is or if you are getting an extension. I wouldn't admit fault, I would merely say, look it appears that a bottle of something fell off a balcony and stained the cars below, now it may or may not have fallen off of my balcony, for all I know, someone could have poured it on the cars, I don't know, the fact of the matter is I am prepared to negotiate a fair deal to have the matter resolved and am prepared to offer XYZ, that is my only offer, however I understand that the offer may not be suitable to you, and if not, then best we go to court, you provide what evidence you have and we can allow the court to decide, "up to you", I am not admitting the cars were damaged from something falling from my balcony, I just don't know, so we can either settle it here and now with my offer, or we can go to court, it might cost me more, it might cost me nothing, but I am prepared for a judge to listen to the evidence, "up to you".

 

They will not want to get a lawyer because they will need to prove the bottle belongs to you and that it fell from your balcony, lawyers cost, witnesses, video's, time off work, etc, all I hear is a lot of hear say.

 

Be fair, but firm, you don't want them out of pocket, but you don't want to get ripped off as well, best of luck.

Edited February 16, 2022 by 4MyEgo

[mvdf]

6 minutes ago, ESLTeacher1989 said:

What happens if they hire a lawyer............but I don't hire a lawyer...........is that possible................and I just turn up to court?

Then their lawyers will gleefully eat you alive.

[ezzra]

First of all try to settle, you can bargain with Thai people, in most cases Thais see foreigner as someone they can bilk...offer a fair amount, usually 70% of the amount they are asking and if not accepted let them sue you, in most case they will accept as this is a civil matter and police will have very little interests in it particularly when the see you're trying to own to your mistake,

I know this very nice lady lawyer in Pattaya, flaunt english, whom you can consult...

[scubascuba3]

27 minutes ago, ESLTeacher1989 said:

What happens if they hire a lawyer............but I don't hire a lawyer...........is that possible................and I just turn up to court?

a friend if mine is a lawyer who goes to court all the time, cases always take a while to go to court and then get delayed further, so it will be hanging over you all that time. I don't see you having much chance without a lawyer, plus costs

[PeachCH]

Speak to them in private, but with a lawyer on your side. 

Let the lawyer make the talking.

When working in Bangkok, our office had a great lawyer. 

Call them and ask for advice in this matter. 

https://www.htoosi.com

Edited February 17, 2022 by PeachCH

[ESLTeacher1989]

I have a condo maid who comes into my room every week, How do i know she didn't jusst chuck the plastic bottle empty over the side...........I also took a video of a bottle spilling on my balcony and a ridge would stop any bleach from escaping the balcony, it seems unlikely to have the cars below

Edited February 17, 2022 by ESLTeacher1989

[PaoloR]

1 hour ago, ESLTeacher1989 said:

I have a condo maid who comes into my room every week, How do i know she didn't jusst chuck the plastic bottle empty over the side...........I also took a video of a bottle spilling on my balcony and a ridge would stop any bleach from escaping the balcony, it seems unlikely to have the cars below

Make up your mind. You admit liability, then gradually change your story till it's either the maid, or not your fault at all.

Pay up and stop fooling yourself.

[JBChiangRai]

The car owners are entitled to have their cars repaired by the main dealers or main dealer approved repairer.  The car owner is entitled to reject the repair if he can see it's been repaired. I rejected a repair at the Toyota main dealer in Pattaya when the door they repaired was off shade a tiny bit.  I'm amazed how many people drive around in cars where the odd door or wing doesn't match the rest of the car.

 

Whilst I have in the past painted previous car panels at 1,500 baht/panel, if it was my new Porsche you would be into hundreds of thousands of baht. In Chiang Rai, the transport costs alone to Bangkok for painting would eat up your 50,000 baht. What car would you rent them for the 2-3 weeks whilst it was away? They are entitled like for like, if it's a supercar you might well be into a million baht or a lot more.

 

Bear in mind, if they sue you, you won't be able to leave the country until it's settled, it could take up to 5 years.

 

Costs are rarely awarded and your costs will be anywhere between 50,000 and 250,000 baht.

 

There is a lesson here for all condo owners, it's difficult to argue water running down a wall that destroyed an original LS Lowry watercolour painting didn't come from your condo.  Your liability insurance should at least match what is below you or be prepared to hand over your condo and any other assets you have in Thailand and if that doesn't settle the debt, to be prevented from leaving here for the rest of your life.

[jippytum]

You have really admitted you are responsible for the damage . You seem willing to settle but dispute the amount being asked from you to repair the damage . Avoid lawyers and request three independent estimates for the  paintwork repairs .You will then have a good idea of the fair price and prevent the car owners from perhaps  taking unfair advantage of you.

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, ESLTeacher1989 said:

What happens if they hire a lawyer............but I don't hire a lawyer...........is that possible................and I just turn up to court?

What will you be doing in court as the procedure is in Thai only.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, ESLTeacher1989 said:

I have a condo maid who comes into my room every week, How do i know she didn't jusst chuck the plastic bottle empty over the side...........I also took a video of a bottle spilling on my balcony and a ridge would stop any bleach from escaping the balcony, it seems unlikely to have the cars below

Stop looking for excuses and pay up.

[ESLTeacher1989]

34 minutes ago, jippytum said:

You have really admitted you are responsible for the damage . You seem willing to settle but dispute the amount being asked from you to repair the damage . Avoid lawyers and request three independent estimates for the  paintwork repairs .You will then have a good idea of the fair price and prevent the car owners from perhaps  taking unfair advantage of you.

I am not 100% sure, more like 50% now. Even if it was 'my' bottle, a maid comes into my room, how do I know she didn't check the bottle of the edge on the balcony not knowing what it was

 

I will attach some videos and pictures so you can understand my point

 

Swimming Pool Leaking 1:

 

Swimming Pool Leaking 2: 

 

 

Water bottle Leak test on balcony: to see where substance goes: Dosen't go down

 

 

The photo evidence they have to try and say it was me:

 

Look at the photo see many white marks all over condo, also white marks on floor no where near me condo. Damage to the car repairs also seems overpriced, only limited damage to the side of car

 

Picture 1: Evidence of pepsi bottle on floor: My question, if it spilled like that, how the hell did the bleach go down if the balcony stops it? 

 

Picture 2: Evidence of white mark below my balcony but there are MANY white stain on that side of condo........Theres a chance it was actually from the swimming pool, swimming pool water contains bleach.

 

Picture 3: White mark stain on floor far to the left of my condo..............way out of where my bottle could have spilled 

fffff

Edited February 17, 2022 by ESLTeacher1989

[Hummin]

Normal concentration of chlorin in a swimmingpool, will not make that kind of damages, if not the cars have been parked at same spot for months, never rained on them or never been washed. 
 

But good luck to prove it. 
 

Poorly stored chemicals if you ask me, and just imagine someone got that in their eyes. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Hummin

[ujayujay]

The cheapest way to solve this: Pay 50k thb. Go to Court will let you suffer......

[thairookie]

Thai lawyers whom I know ply their trade in the mediation room, not courtroom.  Eventually and inevitably, his lawyer and your lawyer will seek an out of court settlement during mediation by the court, and your lawyer will put pressure on you to settle.  If you find out at the stage of mediation that your lawyer is not prepared to fight your cause, you either change a lawyer or you bow to the pressure and accept a settlement.

 

Both lawyers will then walk away claiming that they have never lost a case - because they never end up fighting in the courtroom.   Beware of lawyers who claim to have not lost a case.  These are lawyers who will never fight in the court, and because they don't fight they lack legal knowledge as fighting your cause in the court needs lots of legal research.  From the standpoint of the lawyers, it makes more business sense (for them) to settle the case. 

 

 

[MSMU1993]

Pay the bill, from a repair shop that you get an estimate for, and just move on. By the questions you ask you are in no position to walk into a Thai court, the lawyers will laugh, take your money, and you will lose.  No pool water caused car paint to be damaged overnight....