Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Chris.B]

1 hour ago, 2 is 1 said:

NOTIFICATION:

 

[Virt]

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

There is no mention of sinking the Volga here, the official reason is that Ukraine apparently bombed several Russian border villages (which Ukraine denies), and bombing Kyiv was in retaliation of that. But we all know the true reason: Putin threw a hissy fit because Ukraine sank his battleship and he wants revenge! 

I don't believe Ukraine would waste bombs on civilian targets in Russia. 

 

Now if they can identify and target legitimate Russian military targets that will be used against Ukraine--logistic centers, communication centers, military vehicles preparing to cross into Ukraine--then by all means they should go for it.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, Hellfire said:

 You can never totally exclude this to happen. But, my own beliefs are that the nuclear threat is just another bluff of the Empire of Lies which is a modern Russia. This nuclear war scenario was much more possible in the Soviet times. Those Soviet partocrats had some ideology to support their actions. Modern Russian elite is all about money and anything good it can buy. Nothing in between. And, as I wrote above, those “security threats” stuff is nothing but a propaganda ( targeted at the Russian population) and people like Putin are not really feeling threatened by anybody or anything from the outside world.

That is true if Putin is at least partially sane and responsible, but...

 

At the end of the World War II when it was clear Germany would lose, reports state that Hitler wanted to take down the entire German nation and people because they had failed him.  My greatest fear is that Putin is equally mad, and no sane person in Russia between him and the missiles would stop an order to launch.

 

In spite of that I don't agree with giving in to nuclear blackmail.  Rewarding blackmail results in more blackmail, and rewarding nuclear blackmail will result in autocrats all over the world striving to acquire nuclear weapons so they too can play the blackmail game.

 

In short, rewarding nuclear blackmail doesn't make the world safer, it makes the world more dangerous.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, Hellfire said:

Never heard of that. There was a small territorial conflict in the 60-s that was resolved. That’s it.
Japan has some problem with their 4 islands. But nobody in his right mind would ever imagine Japan regaining those by starting a war with Russia. The real danger for Russia is within its borders. Probably, by exporting the troubles into the outside world, the Russian people in power try to prevent the disaster from within. The one which is imminent, since no more Empires should exist in the 21st century.

Never heard of Tibet then?

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

In spite of that I don't agree with giving in to nuclear blackmail.  Rewarding blackmail results in more blackmail, and rewarding nuclear blackmail will result in autocrats all over the world striving to acquire nuclear weapons so they too can play the blackmail game.

 

It's pretty effective "blackmail" then.

 

Countries all over the world have been trying for nuclear weapons for decades, and some have succeeded, and the world is indeed a dangerous place.

However, IMO the most likely use of atomic weapons is more likely from a terrorist organization or government than from Russia.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The Islands consist of over 10 000 square kilometers of land and are spread over 1000 kilometers long and they belong to Japan and Japan wants them back .

   Russia stole the islands after WW2 

Russia only joined the war against Japan in August 1945, so they likely did so to gain territory.

However, given the way the Japanese behaved in China they were lucky to get away with only losing a few islands, IMO.

[heybruce]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's pretty effective "blackmail" then.

 

Countries all over the world have been trying for nuclear weapons for decades, and some have succeeded, and the world is indeed a dangerous place.

However, IMO the most likely use of atomic weapons is more likely from a terrorist organization or government than from Russia.

To date only a small fraction of nations have tried to obtain nuclear weapons.  Rewarding Russian nuclear blackmail by allowing it to annex Ukraine would not only incentivize Russia to do the same again (good bye Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and how many others?), it would also inspire far more countries to acquire nuclear weapons.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, heybruce said:

To date only a small fraction of nations have tried to obtain nuclear weapons.  Rewarding Russian nuclear blackmail by allowing it to annex Ukraine would not only incentivize Russia to do the same again (good bye Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and how many others?), it would also inspire far more countries to acquire nuclear weapons.

Short of using the nuclear threat, just how is the west going to stop Russia- say please nicely?

 

it would also inspire far more countries to acquire nuclear weapons.

IMO they already are, and were before Ukraine.

If it were easy to make them IMO the world would be full of nuclear armed states.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

47 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's pretty effective "blackmail" then.

 

Countries all over the world have been trying for nuclear weapons for decades, and some have succeeded, and the world is indeed a dangerous place.

However, IMO the most likely use of atomic weapons is more likely from a terrorist organization or government than from Russia.

I’m not at all sure I see the distinction in your last sentence.

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Short of using the nuclear threat, just how is the west going to stop Russia- say please nicely?

 

it would also inspire far more countries to acquire nuclear weapons.

IMO they already are, and were before Ukraine.

If it were easy to make them IMO the world would be full of nuclear armed states.

 

Making war on a Russia’s economy is one such method, allied with destroying large parts of Russian military outside of Russia’s borders.

 

Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Putin.

 

 

 

 

[heybruce]

32 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Short of using the nuclear threat, just how is the west going to stop Russia- say please nicely?

 

it would also inspire far more countries to acquire nuclear weapons.

IMO they already are, and were before Ukraine.

If it were easy to make them IMO the world would be full of nuclear armed states.

 

"Short of using the nuclear threat, just how is the west going to stop Russia- say please nicely?'

 

In this case, sanctions and arming Ukraine.  Is that nice enough for you?

 

Once again, only a small number of countries have acquired or are attempting to acquire nuclear weapons.  Rewarding nuclear blackmail will increase the incentive to acquire these weapons.  That will make a bad situation much worse.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Making war on a Russia’s economy is one such method, allied with destroying large parts of Russian military outside of Russia’s borders.

 

Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Putin.

 

 

 

 

A new cold war .

A cold war which will set Europe back 75 years .

It will be like 1945 all over again 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

"Short of using the nuclear threat, just how is the west going to stop Russia- say please nicely?'

 

In this case, sanctions and arming Ukraine.  Is that nice enough for you?

 

Once again, only a small number of countries have acquired or are attempting to acquire nuclear weapons.  Rewarding nuclear blackmail will increase the incentive to acquire these weapons.  That will make a bad situation much worse.

We are told that Putin doesn't care about his people, so why would sanctions that hurt the people concern him?

So long as Europe needs his energy he's OK for money IMO, and no realistic way Europe can get enough from elsewhere in the near future, as I see it. After the war is over perhaps.

 

I'm certain military minds are working on ways to counter western weapons in Ukraine. They may involve more destruction and death of Ukrainians though, and as Putin is now painted as the worst man in history, what does he have to lose by wreaking even more death on Ukraine?

 

Only takes one country to use nukes to bring disaster to all of us.

[thaibeachlovers]

49 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

A new cold war .

A cold war which will set Europe back 75 years .

It will be like 1945 all over again 

The cold war didn't start till March of 1947, according to google.

[heybruce]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

We are told that Putin doesn't care about his people, so why would sanctions that hurt the people concern him?

So long as Europe needs his energy he's OK for money IMO, and no realistic way Europe can get enough from elsewhere in the near future, as I see it. After the war is over perhaps.

 

I'm certain military minds are working on ways to counter western weapons in Ukraine. They may involve more destruction and death of Ukrainians though, and as Putin is now painted as the worst man in history, what does he have to lose by wreaking even more death on Ukraine?

 

Only takes one country to use nukes to bring disaster to all of us.

Can you stop thinking in terms of one extreme or the other?

 

Sanctions hurt the Russian people, Putin's supporters, and Putin.  They also limit Russia's ability to fund its war machine.  Note I didn't say sanctions eliminate funding for the war machine, I said they limit it. 

 

Similarly, Europe is already reducing energy dependence on Russia, and will continue to do so.   Once again, I'm not saying this is an immediate quick fix, but a long term process to limit Russia's ability to do harm.

 

Military minds on all sides are constantly thinking of measures, counter-measures, counter-counter-measures, etc.  There's nothing new about that.

 

Yes it only takes one country to use nukes to bring disaster to all of us.  That does not make it a wise strategy to cave in to any country threatening to use nuclear weapons.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Yes it only takes one country to use nukes to bring disaster to all of us.  That does not make it a wise strategy to cave in to any country threatening to use nuclear weapons.

I'll take caving in over the total annihilation of most species on the planet in a nuclear winter.

Some may prefer the death of everyone they love.

 

Nuclear deterrence is not named MAD for nothing.

Edited April 16, 2022 by thaibeachlovers

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

That is true if Putin is at least partially sane and responsible, but...

 

At the end of the World War II when it was clear Germany would lose, reports state that Hitler wanted to take down the entire German nation and people because they had failed him.  My greatest fear is that Putin is equally mad, and no sane person in Russia between him and the missiles would stop an order to launch.

 

In spite of that I don't agree with giving in to nuclear blackmail.  Rewarding blackmail results in more blackmail, and rewarding nuclear blackmail will result in autocrats all over the world striving to acquire nuclear weapons so they too can play the blackmail game.

 

In short, rewarding nuclear blackmail doesn't make the world safer, it makes the world more dangerous.

 

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'll take caving in over the total annihilation of most species on the planet in a nuclear winter.

Some may prefer the death of everyone they love.

 

Nuclear deterrence is not named MAD for nothing.

I already explained why rewarding nuclear blackmail is a bad idea.  I even clarified my thinking when you replied to my post.  Now you want to go back to square one and start over again. 

[Bkk Brian]

SAS troops ‘are training local forces in Ukraine’ Serving British soldiers ‘on ground’ for first time

 

SAS troops have trained local forces in Kyiv for the first time since the war with Russia began, Ukrainian commanders have told The Times.

Officers from two battalions stationed in and around the capital said they had undergone military training from serving British special forces, one last week and the other the week before.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sas-troops-are-training-local-forces-in-ukraine-32vs5bjzb

No Paywall https://web.archive.org/web/20220415214840/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sas-troops-are-training-local-forces-in-ukraine-32vs5bjzb

[ozimoron]

The bodies of more than 900 civilians have been discovered in the region surrounding the Ukrainian capital following Russia’s withdrawal — most of them fatally shot, police said Friday, an indication that many people were “simply executed.”

The jarring number emerged shortly after Russia’s Defense Ministry promised to step up missile attacks on Kyiv in response to Ukraine’s alleged assaults on Russian territory. That ominous warning followed the stunning loss of Moscow’s flagship in the Black Sea, which a senior U.S. defense official said Friday was indeed hit by at least one Ukrainian missile.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-business-black-sea-22d7279f32c15d4a7037a2195113fb57

[sammieuk1]

15 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Lets also not forget this is the second key naval vessel lost to Ukraine missiles.

 

According to British intelligence, the loss of two key warships destroyed the position of the Russian fleet in the Black Sea. Russia will likely have to reconsider its naval tactics.

Apparently 452 at the bottom of the sea 58 rescued ????

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

A new cold war .

A cold war which will set Europe back 75 years .

It will be like 1945 all over again 

75 years is too low an estimate. 83 years is closer to the mark. More like 1939 thanks to Putin.

Edited April 16, 2022 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

Just a recap and update on the title of this thread:

 

"Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital"

 

As of yesterday visually confirmed Russian helicopters shot down are 33...........and thats just those captured on video or image.

 

Visually confirmed Russian aviation losses over Ukraine amount to: - 20 Aircraft - 33 Helicopters - 32 UAVs

Full list here

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/03/list-of-aircraft-losses-during-2022.html

[RJRS1301]

“Unsurprisingly, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has been the key factor in pushing Sweden and Finland closer to applying for full membership of NATO.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/15/why-finland-and-sweden-will-likely-join-nato

[GroveHillWanderer]

19 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

If as he has advised it was a fire on board, why does he need to bomb Kyiv?

There is not only no logic in the bombing, he is contradicting himself, does not see the signs of mental ill health ?

Signs of desperation from a megalomaniac 
 

The sentiments expressed in this picture, posted at the very beginning of the war, are starting to look more apt every day.

 

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

 

I already explained why rewarding nuclear blackmail is a bad idea.  I even clarified my thinking when you replied to my post.  Now you want to go back to square one and start over again. 

Escalating things on LBC news they talking about about limited nuclear attack.

 

The uk/ukraine solder that surrendered with his unit has been I assume made to read out Isis style against the Ukrainian President.

 

The other news is SAS are on the ground and teaching Ukraine soldiers how to use the British supplied arms so they are at least must be getting the arms in. 

[Chris.B]

23 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The sentiments expressed in this picture, posted at the very beginning of the war, are starting to look more apt every day.

 

Is that before he pushes the button or after? ☹️

 

"Be careful what you wish for"

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Chris.B

[Virt]

12 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

Is that before he pushes the button or after? ☹️

 

 

I'm not so afraid of some of them pushing the button on purpose, because they know that would end their own lives and all they know.

 

I'm more afraid of another incident like that in Jan 25 1995 where a Norwegian science rocket almost caused a nuclear response.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/near-launching-of-russian-nukes

 

 

[RJRS1301]

Ukraine’s prime minister Denys Shmyhal and top finance officials will visit Washington next week, according to reports.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/apr/16/russia-ukraine-war-latest-ukraine-pm-to-head-to-washington-russian-warship-sunk-by-ukraine-missile-strike-say-us-officials-live?utm_term=625a69744655edd13de9475c3d121e89&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email

[Bkk Brian]

21 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

The ministry also said that it had taken over the Ilyich Steel Plant in the besieged port city of Mariupol, which has been encircled by Russian troops for weeks. In a statement, the ministry said: "The number and scale of missile strikes on targets in Kyiv will increase in response to any terrorist attacks or acts of sabotage on Russian territory committed by the Kyiv nationalist regime. This follows the news that Russia's flagship, the Moskva sunk.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1596414/ukraine-live-vladimir-putin-Sergei-Shoigu-heart-attack-russia-moskva-ship-sink-latest

Mariupol is a crime scene waiting to be discovered, who knows if the atrocities there will ever be fully investigated in part due to the Russians there now covering their tracks and disposing of bodies. 

 

We were told about some of the horrors going on in Bucha by people escaping in early March but it was not until April 1st or 2nd when Ukriane troops entered along with press that the full horrors started to unfold.

 

Not just Mariupol of course, so many other people in towns and villages that have suffered and telling their stories. Its the worst nightmare imaginable.