Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[jvs]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

Yet if Ukraine had been a member of NATO Russia would not have invaded, Finland and Sweden had no intention of joining NATO until Russia invaded Ukraine. I think it would be fair to say that nations join NATO to protect themselves from a Russian invasion rather than to go to war against Russia.

Yes that great plan of putin back fired!Now he will have more NATO countries as a neighbour and the Baltic sea is also a problem now.

Once russia falls apart there will be more countries trying to get away from Moscows influence and seek freedom and democrazy .

Russia will be broke for the next few decades when this is over imo.

 

[rabas]

30 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Are you serious?

I don't know , why don't you ask Ambassador Burns now director of CIA  Angela Merkel, Sarkozy , why they thought that Russia will consider Nato expansion into Ukraine as a "De facto declaration of war. " 

You mistake "legitimate threat to sovereignty" with "a threat to Russia's/Putin's opportunistic and illegal territorial expansion". These are not the same. 

 

Your friend Mearsheimer is an ultra realest and does not suggest Russia/Putin has any moral right to Ukraine, only that fear of NATO impeding Russia's plans of imperial expansion will trigger Putin the evil one. Mearsheimer is not defending Russia as you do. He simply explains the logic behind what may happen.

 

To better understand Mearsheimer read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer.  However, you may need to remove your anti-Western glasses to see his view.

[sirineou]

32 minutes ago, rabas said:

You mistake "legitimate threat to sovereignty" with "a threat to Russia's/Putin's opportunistic and illegal territorial expansion". These are not the same.

I and most experts disagree , but I am will to hear what brought you to that conclusion. 

 

32 minutes ago, rabas said:

our friend Mearsheimer is an ultra realest

No friend of mine , never even met the man. 

32 minutes ago, rabas said:

does not suggest Russia/Putin has any moral right to Ukraine, only that fear of NATO

And neither did I, please point our where I did.

32 minutes ago, rabas said:

Mearsheimer is not defending Russia as you do. He simply explains the logic behind what may happen.

.And so did I, again please point out where I did, and please refrain from putting words in my mouth. A pretentious avatar does not give you the right. 

32 minutes ago, rabas said:

To better understand Mearsheimer read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer. 

I don't see how his wikipedia page is relevant,But to your point.   I do even better I listen to the man. 

As I said , take one thing that he said,  disagree with , and offer contradicting evidence not just opinion ,

One thing , only one thing.

I am not holding my breath. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by sirineou

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I and most experts disagree , but I am will to hear what brought you to that conclusion. 

 

No friend of mine , never even met the man. 

And neither did I, please point our where I did.

.And so did I, again please point out where I did, and please refrain from putting words in my mouth. A pretentious avatar does not give you the right. 

I don't see how his wikipedia page is relevant,But to your point.   I do even better I listen to the man. 

As I said , take one thing that he said,  disagree with , and offer contradicting evidence not just opinion ,

One thing , only one thing.

I am not holding my breath. 

The Kremlin agree with you as they often tweet links to his works in fact they quite admire him..................

 

"As I said , take one thing that he said,  disagree with , and offer contradicting evidence not just opinion ,"

 

Here's some and the evidence is before the worlds eyes as we speak: "Mearsheimer dismissed the idea that Russia would ever try to “conquer Ukraine”

 

It makes no sense to blame the west for the Ukraine war

In his famous 2015 lecture, Mearsheimer dismissed the idea that Russia would ever try to “conquer Ukraine” — arguing that “Putin is much too smart for that”. 

The professor also continues to insist that Putin was being sincere when he made statements before the war claiming to accept Ukrainian independence. In a more recent lecture, Mearsheimer even claims that “Putin does not have a history of lying to other leaders”. This will come as news to the foreign leaders to whom Putin has variously claimed that Russia had no hand in the shooting down of flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014; or that the Kremlin had nothing to do with the attempted murder of the Russian opposition activist Alexei Navalny in 2020.

https://www.ft.com/content/2d65c763-c36f-4507-8a7d-13517032aa22

 

Here's a couple more:

 

John Mearsheimer’s lecture on Ukraine: Why he is wrong and what are the consequences

Mearsheimer’s explanation draws on his own version of the realist theory of international relations, offensive realism, which is not an overly reliable guide to the behaviour of contemporary states. Offensive realism holds that great powers such as Russia cannot tolerate perceived security threats in their neighbourhoods. However, here as elsewhere, offensive realism often fails on empirical grounds. The breakup of the Soviet Bloc, the post-Cold War military weakness of Germany, and peace among major European powers are just a few examples of such failures. 

https://euideas.eui.eu/2022/07/11/john-mearsheimers-lecture-on-ukraine-why-he-is-wrong-and-what-are-the-consequences/

 

Why John Mearsheimer Gets Ukraine Wrong

Part of the destructiveness of this amoralist framework is evident in Mearsheimer’s proposed remedy for the crisis. Even though many Ukrainians are risking their lives fighting off Russia’s invasion; even though they dread a future under Putin’s authoritarian boot; even though many Ukrainians want to reshape their country so it better protects their freedom; none of that counts for much in Mearsheimer’s analysis.

https://newideal.aynrand.org/why-john-mearsheimer-gets-ukraine-wrong/

 

He did get somethings right, like saying Ukraine should never have given up its nuclear weapons. I'll give him that.

 

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

2015 lecture, dismissed the idea that Russia would ever try to “conquer Ukraine” — arguing that “Putin is much too smart for that”. 

And he still does. Obviously you have no idea what Mearsheimer claims, Have you even listen to one of his lectures?

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

John Mearsheimer ’s lecture on Ukraine: Why he is wrong and what are the consequences  North Acropolis of Yaxha,Guatemala.

So another arguable  opinion   paper on Mearsheimer but no contradicting evidence  Please take one thing he said and contradict it. Mearsheimer offered quotes why he thought Puttin was not lying , please point out the section where evidence is presented that he was. 

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why John Mearsheimer Gets Ukraine Wrong

He does not even attempt to "get " Ukraine in any way. Of course any people would fight against an invasion of their country. He only attempts to explained how we got there.

Do you disagree how we got there/ and if so why?  

 

I am getting tired of this, I actually have a life. I hope you appreciate the effort I put in trying to engage you all  in a rational conversation. I see that this is not possible and I am wasting my breath.

Have a good day.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

And he still does. Obviously you have no idea what Mearsheimer claims, Have you even listen to one of his lectures?

So another arguable  opinion   paper on Mearsheimer but no contradicting evidence  Please take one thing he said and contradict it. Mearsheimer offered quotes why he thought Puttin was not lying , please point out the section where evidence is presented that he was. 

He does not even attempt to "get " Ukraine in any way. Of course any people would fight against an invasion of their country. He only attempts to explained how we got there.

Do you disagree how we got there/ and if so why?  

 

I am getting tired of this, I actually have a life. I hope you appreciate the effort I put in trying to engage you all  in a rational conversation. I see that this is not possible and I am wasting my breath.

Have a good day.

The evidence is in the articles, however....................

 

"I am getting tired of this, I actually have a life. I hope you appreciate the effort I put in trying to engage you all  in a rational conversation. I see that this is not possible and I am wasting my breath.

Have a good day."

 

I give you a 1 out of 10. Have a good day to

Edited July 24, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[LosLobo]

More drone attacks in both Moscow and Crimea......

 

Russia accuses Ukraine of Moscow drone attack - BBC News

 

Russian ammunition depot hit during Ukrainian drone attack in Crimea - official | Reuters

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

I give you a 1 out of 10.

I am soo disappointed, I was hoping for at least silver. ????

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, LosLobo said:

More drone attacks in both Moscow and Crimea......

 

Russia accuses Ukraine of Moscow drone attack - BBC News

 

Russian ammunition depot hit during Ukrainian drone attack in Crimea - official | Reuters

Russians have been sending drones, missiles and so forth towards Ukraine cities but that's not called acts of terrorism, they name it "military operation" but if Ukraine does something to defends themselves it's called a terrorist act (from the article)

"" A Kyiv regime attempt to carry out a terrorist act using two drones on objects on the territory of the city of Moscow was stopped," the Russian defence ministry said in a statement"

 

[ballpoint]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

" A Kyiv regime attempt to carry out a terrorist act using two drones on objects on the territory of the city of Moscow was stopped," the Russian defence ministry said in a statement"

Yes, Moscow stopped the attack by hurriedly placing two buildings in the way.

(Photo from Reuters).

 

[ballpoint]

More sheer hypocrisy from Russia:

 

"Russia said on Monday that drone attacks in central Moscow and annexed Crimea could warrant a harsh response, after Ukraine claimed an attack on the capital.
“We regard what happened as yet another use of terrorist methods and intimidation of the civilian population by the military and political leadership of Ukraine,” Russia’s foreign ministry said."

 

Harsh response eh?  I hope they don't start targeting civilian residences, schools, hospitals, vital infrastructure and food supplies in retaliation.  Oh...

 

Russia warns of ‘tough retaliatory measures’ to Ukraine drone attacks | South China Morning Post (scmp.com)

[Bkk Brian]

58 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

Yes, Moscow stopped the attack by hurriedly placing two buildings in the way.

(Photo from Reuters).

 

Some more good news:

 

Official Kyiv: Attrition Strategy Against Russian Army Working, Ukraine Offensive Will Succeed

 

Kyiv’s strategy eventually to defeat the Russian army by hollowing it out by attrition is succeeding, senior Ukrainian officials led by President Volodymyr Zelensky said in recent comments.

 

Zelensky in a Sunday national TV statement said the Armed Forces of Ukraine’s (AFU) southern offensive was generally proceeding according to plan, that Kremlin forces were suffering serious losses, and he hinted to viewers the pace of Ukrainian attacks would accelerate in coming days.

 

“We have already started preparing for the upcoming week. There will be a lot of different events that will definitely bolster Ukraine’s defense,” Zelensky said.

 

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/19799

[rudi49jr]

Russia attacked Ukraine grain storage very close to the Romanian border. Russia is playing very dangerous games. Couple of their missiles landing in Romania by mistake and NATO might see that as an excuse to get involved. One would almost hope so….

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by rudi49jr

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

Russia attacked Ukraine grain storage very close to the Romanian border. Russia is playing very dangerous games. Couple of their missiles landing in Romania by mistake and NATO might see that as an excuse to get involved. One would almost hope so….

 

 

Well, NATO definitely doesn't want to get directly involved.

So for Article 5 to be invoked, Russia would need to launch an UNAMBIGUOUS attack on NATO territory. An accident wouldn't do it. Russia doesn't want that either and yes it's a big risk getting so close, but I can't see them intentionally attacking NATO land. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Well, NATO definitely doesn't want to get directly involved.

So for Article 5 to be invoked, Russia would need to launch an UNAMBIGUOUS attack on NATO territory. An accident wouldn't do it. Russia doesn't want that either and yes it's a big risk getting so close, but I can't see them intentionally attacking NATO land. 

Expanding on that. An interesting point in this video is that Putin is starving countries in the "Global South" that he has expected support from, or at least neutrality.

 

 

[tgw]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Well, NATO definitely doesn't want to get directly involved.

So for Article 5 to be invoked, Russia would need to launch an UNAMBIGUOUS attack on NATO territory. An accident wouldn't do it. Russia doesn't want that either and yes it's a big risk getting so close, but I can't see them intentionally attacking NATO land. 

expanding on that, wouldn't it be a strange coincidence if NATO didn't declare war but rather conduct a "special military operation" instead ?

[Mavideol]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Expanding on that. An interesting point in this video is that Putin is starving countries in the "Global South" that he has expected support from, or at least neutrality.

 

 

in other words .... cut off your nose to spite your face ....

 

to do something because you are angry, even if it will cause trouble for you   555

[LosLobo]

This recommended YT vlogger gives an interesting detailed daily update on the progress of Ukraine's offensive.....

 

 

[steven100]

what's the damn point in all these Sanctions because all we read is how Russia navigates around them everytime.

 

This is a serious concern if correct .....

source:https://us.yahoo.com/news/china-sending-enough-military-gear-135433081.html

 

[Bkk Brian]

All thoughts with Ukraine, the big thrust is on. Good luck!!

 

U.S. Says Main Thrust of Ukraine’s Counteroffensive Has Begun

 

The main thrust of Ukraine’s nearly two-month-old counteroffensive is now underway in the country’s southeast, two Pentagon officials said on Wednesday, with thousands of reinforcements pouring into the grinding battle, many of them trained and equipped by the West and, until now, held in reserve.

 

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss details of the campaign. Their comments dovetailed with reports from the battlefield on Wednesday, where artillery battles flared along the southern front line in the Zaporizhzhia region.

 

And Igor Konashenkov, the Russian Defense Ministry’s chief spokesman, reported a “massive” assault and fierce battles south of Orikhiv, a town that Ukraine holds about 60 miles north of the Sea of Azov. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/07/26/world/russia-ukraine-news

https://archive.ph/tuKhs

[LosLobo]

Evidently Putin lost it during Yevgeny Prigozhin's insurrection......

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Yes Putin, you and your terrorists will be kicked out:

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said Ukraine's attacks had "significantly" intensified."

 

Ukraine war: Kyiv claims success as southern fighting intensifies

Ukraine's military says it has had success on one of the front lines in southeast Ukraine, as Western officials talk of a major thrust taking place.

In a video published by President Zelensky, Ukrainian troops said they had taken the village of Staromaiorske.

Earlier, Ukraine's military said it was "solidifying positions" it had reached in the same area, east of the city of Zaporizhzhia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66323354

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes Putin, you and your terrorists will be kicked out:

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said Ukraine's attacks had "significantly" intensified."

 

Ukraine war: Kyiv claims success as southern fighting intensifies

Ukraine's military says it has had success on one of the front lines in southeast Ukraine, as Western officials talk of a major thrust taking place.

In a video published by President Zelensky, Ukrainian troops said they had taken the village of Staromaiorske.

Earlier, Ukraine's military said it was "solidifying positions" it had reached in the same area, east of the city of Zaporizhzhia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66323354

I wish I shared your optimism but I don't feel confident in any predictions.

Ultimately, even given that Ukrainians have been amazing in their motivation and innovative genius taking on a much bigger invader, what's going to actually turn into fully kicking Russia out depends on the aid from the west. It's clear to me (though hardly an original thought) that the west has been great in helping Ukraine DEFEND itself but has been crickets on really committing to Ukraine WINNING. The west is clearly afraid of that outcome as far as what would happen in Russia, whether they would use nukes, etc. So if that weak tea help continues the best Ukraine will be getting is some kind of temporary "peace" deal with Russia holding on to large areas of their land including Crimea. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Jingthing

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I wish I shared your optimism but I don't feel confident in any predictions.

Ultimately, even given that Ukrainians have been amazing in their motivation and innovative genius taking on a much bigger invader, what's going to actually turn into fully kicking Russia out depends on the aid from the west. It's clear to me (though hardly an original thought) that the west has been great in helping Ukraine DEFEND itself but has been crickets on really committing to Ukraine WINNING. The west is clearly afraid of that outcome as far as what would happen in Russia, whether they would use nukes, etc. So if that weak tea help continues the best Ukraine will be getting is some kind of temporary "peace" deal with Russia holding on to large areas of their land including Crimea. 

I think the West, NATO and Stoltenberg is right on target and is spot on doing the right thing.

They give Ukraine enough to win on their own terms, but also not enough that Ukraine will emerge as a military superpower post-war. Who knows what kind of leadership Ukraine will have in 10-20 years? Maybe not a happy comedian again.

Russia will not be allowed to use nukes, by ......surprise China. You want to know why?

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I think the West, NATO and Stoltenberg is right on target and is spot on doing the right thing.

They give Ukraine enough to win on their own terms, but also not enough that Ukraine will emerge as a military superpower post-war. Who knows what kind of leadership Ukraine will have in 10-20 years? Maybe not a happy comedian again.

Russia will not be allowed to use nukes, by ......surprise China. You want to know why?

 

I don't agree. It's not enough.

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't agree. It's not enough.

That is understandable,  we all want to see the good guys win. I still think there are some valuable lessons learned from earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Old allies don't always stay loyal.

[Jingthing]

44 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

That is understandable,  we all want to see the good guys win. I still think there are some valuable lessons learned from earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Old allies don't always stay loyal.

There is no equivalence there at all!

I can understand a concern about Russia taking all the arms if they won, but NATO has the power to insure that Ukraine wins.

If you seriously think that after Ukraine wins, a country that very much wants to join NATO ASAP, they will turn into enemies of the west, I can't even process that level of paranoia. 

Also of course Ukraine will need help to rebuild and that will take decades.

Zelensky knew long ago that he needed air power to stage a swift effective counter offensive. It's outrageous that he doesn't have that now and still needs to wait several months, possibly too late. Pundits and useful idiots for Putin wanting to cut Ukraine off complain that Ukraine isn't taking back territory fast enough. Who's to blame for that? Obviously the Russians of course but also it's the direct result of the west refusing to fully commit to making Ukraine WIN. Not to mention all the dead brave Ukrainian defenders and civilians that have already died because of the west's help being too timid.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Jingthing

[Tug]

3 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

That is understandable,  we all want to see the good guys win. I still think there are some valuable lessons learned from earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Old allies don't always stay loyal.

Not a good comparison in my opinion the people running Afghanistan did the World Trade Center we invaded Iraq on bad information no comparison at all Ukraine appealed for help and got it Russia invaded on false accusations this is a war of conquest and theft.the Ukrainian people are fighting for their sovereignty and self determination they desperately want to be a part of the west/Europe they seem to me to be strongly evolving towards that goal personally I want Allies like them salva Ukraine ???????? evict the criminals!

[ExpatOilWorker]

9 minutes ago, Tug said:

Not a good comparison in my opinion the people running Afghanistan did the World Trade Center we invaded Iraq on bad information no comparison at all Ukraine appealed for help and got it Russia invaded on false accusations this is a war of conquest and theft.the Ukrainian people are fighting for their sovereignty and self determination they desperately want to be a part of the west/Europe they seem to me to be strongly evolving towards that goal personally I want Allies like them salva Ukraine ???????? evict the criminals!

I was referring to the earlier conflicts.

USA helping Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion and then later that same Afghanistan turned around and did September 11.

Same with Iraq, which was supported by the US during the Iraq-Iran conflict and then later Iraq invaded Kuwait and as a result we had 2 gulf wars.

[Tug]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I was referring to the earlier conflicts.

USA helping Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion and then later that same Afghanistan turned around and did September 11.

Same with Iraq, which was supported by the US during the Iraq-Iran conflict and then later Iraq invaded Kuwait and as a result we had 2 gulf wars.

Ok thanks for clarifying I did misunderstand still that beeing said I do disagree Ukraine can and will become a strong vibrant nato/eurozone ally I’d certainly want them on my side!salva Ukraine ????????