Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

It's not over yet that's the sad thing about it and why it all came about.

The economic's of the western world will suffer for years because of the gunho attitude.

The way past world affairs have been dealt with is now showing how wrong they are with there policing.

Who said it was over? The only sad thing is that it would have been if you’d had your way throwing up the white flag and the dictator and war criminal Putin would now have control of Ukraine and have his next target in sights.

 

The price of freedom is never cheap otherwise the whole world would be free right now. However it’s a price that those who strive for it are willing to pay. Yes I know that does not include you……

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, farmerjo said:

This is where our views differ.

Ukraine hasn't stopped him,NATO's weapon supplies have.

How long do you think it will be before the arms supplies are slowed to a few shipments of bullets.

For any peace to occur which should be everyone's goal,Ukraine will not be left with an arsenal of NATO weapons.

"For any peace to occur which should be everyone's goal,Ukraine Russia will not be left with an arsenal of NATO weapons."

 

Fixed if for you.  After all, Russia was the aggressor.

[Kwasaki]

20 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Who said it was over? The only sad thing is that it would have been if you’d had your way throwing up the white flag and the dictator and war criminal Putin would now have control of Ukraine and have his next target in sights.

 

The price of freedom is never cheap otherwise the whole world would be free right now. However it’s a price that those who strive for it are willing to pay. Yes I know that does not include you……

To repeat I said its not over yet.

Nobody knows what would of happened if Ukraine submitted.

 

Putin's aim as said over and over again was to stop the advance of NATO to his borders.

 

The price freedom is not cheap but it can also be paid by patients, intelligence, without great loses of life. 

 

War is so different these days it doesn't solve anything IMHO. 

[Kwasaki]

26 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"For any peace to occur which should be everyone's goal,Ukraine Russia will not be left with an arsenal of NATO weapons."

 

Fixed if for you.  After all, Russia was the aggressor.

There lies the problem Russia or more so Putin doesn't see himselve as the aggressor Putin see's NATO closing in with US helping.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

There lies the problem Russia or more so Putin doesn't see himselve as the aggressor Putin see's NATO closing in with US helping.

It’s nothing new for criminals to not see their acts as crimes, Putin is no different.

 

Your obfuscation of Putin’s criminality is again noted.

[coolcarer]

8 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

To repeat I said its not over yet.

Nobody knows what would of happened if Ukraine submitted.

 

Putin's aim as said over and over again was to stop the advance of NATO to his borders.

 

The price freedom is not cheap but it can also be paid by patients, intelligence, without great loses of life. 

 

War is so different these days it doesn't solve anything IMHO. 

Repeat the obvious all you want. While your at it explain how advocating for Ukraine to submit to something that you now say nobody would know the outcome of would be beneficial to anybody?

 

Putin has already lost his dream of stopping nato, Finland and possibly Sweden are now because of this expediting their entry to NATO. Is he going to attack them next?

[Hellfire]

10 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

There lies the problem Russia or more so Putin doesn't see himselve as the aggressor Putin see's NATO closing in with US helping.

  Putin’s goal is NATO going back to the Stalin era borders. He wants to take the whole world 30 years back, to the times of the Cold War with the dozens of now free countries falling again under the rule of the Russian Empire. Do you find anything positive in this plan? Anything that can be accepted by any modern thinking  human being? 

[RJRS1301]

22 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

To repeat I said its not over yet.

Nobody knows what would of happened if Ukraine submitted.

 

Putin's aim as said over and over again was to stop the advance of NATO to his borders.

 

The price freedom is not cheap but it can also be paid by patients, intelligence, without great loses of life. 

 

War is so different these days it doesn't solve anything IMHO. 

However Ukraine were not the aggressors

The tyrant thought it held the aces, however it was mistaken, and showed how despicable it really is, and one can only imagine how it would have treated civilians if it had the aces.

It has indiscriminately killed civilians, children, held people in hospital basements, allegedly taken civilians across the border disposing of their personal papers,   bombed maternity hospitals and shelters. The detritus needs to be swept up and disposed of by its own people

 

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

There lies the problem Russia or more so Putin doesn't see himselve as the aggressor Putin see's NATO closing in with US helping.

He's going to see NATO even closer now. Other non NATO countries will join, likely Finland and possibly Modova and Ukraine. NATO won't want to see their hands tied again when Russia invades its neighbours. Even before that happens, Ukraine will become the best armed non aligned nation in Europe. NATO will not tolerate Putin achieving any of his objectives in Ukraine. Sanctions will remain until he relinquishes control of Crimea and the Donbas regions.

[Bkk Brian]

34 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

There lies the problem Russia or more so Putin doesn't see himselve as the aggressor Putin see's NATO closing in with US helping.

Such a shameful apologist for Putin.

 

No excuses can justify these indiscriminate murders of civilians or the illegal invasion. Your excuse for Putin does not stand with the International Criminal Courts

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

This is where our views differ.

Ukraine hasn't stopped him,NATO's weapon supplies have.

How long do you think it will be before the arms supplies are slowed to a few shipments of bullets.

For any peace to occur which should be everyone's goal,Ukraine will not be left with an arsenal of NATO weapons.

Peace is not everyone’s goal.

 

Putin’s goal is the obliteration of Ukrainian and the murder of Ukrainian’s political leadership.

 

Ukrainian’s have a choice, fight, or die.

 

There are no signs of arms supplies slowing.

[RJRS1301]

Should peace be achieved, can the international communities which seized assets from the hierarchy,  liquidate those assets, and use the funds as part of a rebuilding effort for Ukraine?

 

 

[farmerjo]

16 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No excuses can justify these indiscriminate murders of civilians or the illegal invasion. Your excuse for Putin does not stand with the International Criminal Courts

You seem to put a lot of weight behind the ICC.

They won't help with the solutions of the here and now.

[Kwasaki]

53 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Repeat the obvious all you want. While your at it explain how advocating for Ukraine to submit to something that you now say nobody would know the outcome of would be beneficial to anybody?

 

Putin has already lost his dream of stopping nato, Finland and possibly Sweden are now because of this expediting their entry to NATO. Is he going to attack them next?

You keep asking me questions I do not have answers to. 

The mess that is happening now is what needs to be brought to an end. 

And to repeat again the only way I see that to happen is for the Russians to end Putin's reign.

[RJRS1301]

7 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

You seem to put a lot of weight behind the ICC.

They won't help with the solutions of the here and now.

Russia also with withdrew its signature to the ICC 2016., as did USA in 2002 , so although the principles stand, their ability to try anyone is not only a lengthy process, their ability in this case probably zilch

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

You seem to put a lot of weight behind the ICC.

They won't help with the solutions of the here and now.

In respect to Putin using the excuse of Nato for his crimes and murders in the International court then yes that is not a defense.

 

The here and now is still no excuse either for the crimes and murders that are continuing. Right?

[coolcarer]

8 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You keep asking me questions I do not have answers to. 

The mess that is happening now is what needs to be brought to an end. 

And to repeat again the only way I see that to happen is for the Russians to end Putin's reign.

I’m asking questions related to the assertions you keep making. When called out on those you then refuse to answer and instead deflect as above. Changing the goal posts as Putin does is not an admirable trait.

[Chomper Higgot]

12 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You keep asking me questions I do not have answers to. 

The mess that is happening now is what needs to be brought to an end. 

And to repeat again the only way I see that to happen is for the Russians to end Putin's reign.

I see you’ve changed your mind on who it is that needs to be removed I order to end this war:

 

On 2/25/2022 at 2:15 PM, Kwasaki said:

The Ukraine president rhetoric for quite a while is trying to get NATO involved into War with Russia which anyone knows is a bit stupid to say the least the sooner his gone peace again will be restored.

 

 

 

[xylophone]

16 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You keep asking me questions I do not have answers to. 

The mess that is happening now is what needs to be brought to an end. 

And to repeat again the only way I see that to happen is for the Russians to end Putin's reign.

Ending Putin's reign would be a good solution IMO, however it would take some folks with huge "cojones" to do this.

 

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I was reminded of it when I was watching a movie called "The Courier" last night, when JFK called Khrushchev's bluff, when Khrushchev was moving missiles into Cuba and a nuclear war was the push of a button away, but JFK delivered his own "threat/promise" to the USSR, and they withdrew their missiles and stopped new ones arriving.

 

Surely Putin must be aware that if he launched nuclear weapons, they would kill his own countrymen as well as others, and could/should provoke other countries to do likewise to Russia, so it's a no-win situation, as well as making countries affected by nuclear fallout, damn near useless for decades to come.

 

The US/Nato should stand its ground, issue a similar threat to Putin (and that might get a change of leadership in itself) and call Putin out, and start to ship its fighter planes to Poland to allow them to pass on their fighter aircraft to the Ukraine.

 

Sorry if it's been covered before, but I haven't got time to review 82 pages of comments!!

[RJRS1301]

2 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Ending Putin's reign would be a good solution IMO, however it would take some folks with huge "cojones" to do this.

 

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I was reminded of it when I was watching a movie called "The Courier" last night, when JFK called Khrushchev's bluff, when Khrushchev was moving missiles into Cuba and a nuclear war was the push of a button away, but JFK delivered his own "threat/promise" to the USSR, and they withdrew their missiles and stopped new ones arriving.

 

Surely Putin must be aware that if he launched nuclear weapons, they would kill his own countrymen as well as others, and could/should provoke other countries to do likewise to Russia, so it's a no-win situation, as well as making countries affected by nuclear fallout, damn near useless for decades to come.

 

The US should stand its ground, issue a similar threat to Putin (and that might get a change of leadership in itself) and start to ship its fighter planes to Poland to allow them to pass on their fighter aircraft to the Ukraine.

 

Sorry if it's been covered before, but I haven't got time to review 82 pages of comments!!

Actually JFK not only put sanctions in place, he placed a ring of US vessels around Cuba, when the Russian Navy approached they were challenged, and turned back to stop the button pressing, Slightly different circumstances to put a naval blockade in place.

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

To repeat I said its not over yet.

Nobody knows what would of happened if Ukraine submitted.

 

Putin's aim as said over and over again was to stop the advance of NATO to his borders.

 

The price freedom is not cheap but it can also be paid by patients, intelligence, without great loses of life. 

 

War is so different these days it doesn't solve anything IMHO. 

Because Putin, an ex-KGB officer, said that stopping NATO was his aim, you believe him? He also said Ukraine isn't a real country. Putin is an avowed fan of Alexander Dugin, a fascist political philosopher who states that Ukraine must be reabsorbed by Russia in order to recreate the Russian empire. No ifs, ands, or buts there. And did Russian troops fight to take the Donbass because of NATO? Is that why Russia has seized portions of Moldova and Georgia? Is NATO the reason why Putin has claimed Russia has the right to protect ethnic Russian populations wherever they exist?

[Bkk Brian]

31 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Russia also with withdrew its signature to the ICC 2016., as did USA in 2002 , so although the principles stand, their ability to try anyone is not only a lengthy process, their ability in this case probably zilch

Its complicated but not impossible, article here covers some of the options, its a good read:

 

How would those accused of Ukraine war crimes be prosecuted?

"Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, France, Slovakia, Sweden, Norway and Switzerland all opened independent investigations into Russia’s activity in Ukraine within the first month of the conflict. They can do so under the legal concept of “universal jurisdiction,” which allows countries to use domestic courts to prosecute individuals for grave violations of international law, like crimes against humanity, torture and war crimes – even if they are committed abroad by foreign perpetrators against foreign victims."

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-africa-united-nations-war-crimes-europe-6bdb1d4ea6d13830fdf048e46ec8199e

 

There is also another initiative going on here:

 

High-Level Launch Meeting of the Group of Friends of Accountability Following the Aggression Against Ukraine

The GoF will serve as an informal forum for states dedicated to ensuring accountability for international crimes committed following the Russian invasion of Ukraine with the aim of:

Information sharing among states and relevant international organizations, institutions, and civil society in order to optimize the process of accountability and the delivery of justice.

Including and engaging smaller states, whose capacity to follow the development of accountability measures may not match the importance they attach to the respect for the rule-based international order.

 

https://www.ipinst.org/2022/03/high-level-launch-meeting-of-group-of-friends-of-accountability-for-ukraine

 

They're not going there to waste their time:

 

International Criminal Court team head to Ukraine for war crimes investigation

A team from the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague has left for Ukraine to start investigating possible war crimes, its top prosecutor has said.

Hours before their departure on Thursday, Prosecutor Karim Khan said he would start collecting evidence as part of a formal investigation launched after Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

"Yesterday I formulated a team and today they are moving to the region," Mr Khan told Reuters.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/international-criminal-court-team-head-to-ukraine-for-war-crimes-investigation-12556564

 

 

 

 

 

 

[xylophone]

3 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Actually JFK not only put sanctions in place, he placed a ring of US vessels around Cuba, when the Russian Navy approached they were challenged, and turned back to stop the button pressing, Slightly different circumstances to put a naval blockade in place.

 

He called Khrushchev's "bluff" and stood up to him, and no matter how he did it, someone needs to do the same to Putin IMO.

[tgw]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

 

Nobody knows what would of happened if Ukraine submitted.

that scenario is pretty clear: show trials, mass murders, mass deportations, puppet regime, iron curtain, ...  everything out of Stalin's playbook.

and it would spell disaster for democratic Ukraine.

 

and think about it ... Putin's "New Russia", the sanctioned and embargoed Russia, the pariah state Russia ... what would be the destiny of any country controlled by it ?

 

don't kid yourself that in case Ukraine beats the Russians fascist back, sanctions on Russia and Putin would be lifted ... Putin is done, sanctions will not end until he is gone and Russia holds democratic polls and elects a democratic leader.

Until then it will remain a pariah state, with or without Putin.

[Phoenix Rising]

4 hours ago, farmerjo said:

This is where our views differ.

Ukraine hasn't stopped him,NATO's weapon supplies have.

How long do you think it will be before the arms supplies are slowed to a few shipments of bullets.

For any peace to occur which should be everyone's goal,Ukraine will not be left with an arsenal of NATO weapons.

"Ukraine hasn't stopped him,NATO's weapon supplies have."

What a load of rubbish. Weapons don't discharge themselves, they need brave people to fire the hand held anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons.

 

"How long do you think it will be before the arms supplies are slowed to a few shipments of bullets."

My answer would be; "Not for the foreseeable future".

 

"For any peace to occur which should be everyone's goal,Ukraine will not be left with an arsenal of NATO weapons."

Everyone's goal should be Russia withdrawing from Ukraine and Putin be tried for war crimes, and one of the consequences of Putin's/Russia's aggression will be a Ukraine filled to the brim with NATO weapons.

Ukraine didn't start this, Putin/Russia did. And the aggressor, when unable to fulfill his fascist fantasies, doesn't get to dictate the terms of his defeat.

[ozimoron]

The Black Sea port of Odesa is mining its beaches and rushing to defend its cultural heritage from a feared Mariupol-style fate in the face of growing alarm that the strategic city might be next as Russia attempts to strip Ukraine of its coastline.

The multi-cultural jewel, dear to Ukrainian hearts and even Russian ones, would be a hugely strategic win for Russia. It is the country’s largest port, crucial to grain and other exports, and headquarters for the Ukrainian navy.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-business-europe-black-sea-224009801161d899abb0cc94c9b17d2f

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, farmerjo said:

You seem to put a lot of weight behind the ICC.

They won't help with the solutions of the here and now.

Making excuses for Putin also won’t help with the solutions of the here and now. Which is exactly what the poster was doing. ICC is a justice yet to be served hopefully in the near future. 

[ozimoron]

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy angrily warned Moscow that it is sowing a deep hatred for Russia among his people, as constant artillery barrages and aerial bombings are reducing cities to rubble, killing civilians and driving others into shelters, leaving them to scrounge for food and water to survive.

“You are doing everything so that our people themselves leave the Russian language, because the Russian language will now be associated only with you, with your explosions and murders, your crimes,” Zelenskyy said in an impassioned video address late Saturday.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-business-europe-moscow-e65957837aed8286cc866b1eb943ab97

[thaibeachlovers]

56 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its complicated but not impossible, article here covers some of the options, its a good read:

 

How would those accused of Ukraine war crimes be prosecuted?

"Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, France, Slovakia, Sweden, Norway and Switzerland all opened independent investigations into Russia’s activity in Ukraine within the first month of the conflict. They can do so under the legal concept of “universal jurisdiction,” which allows countries to use domestic courts to prosecute individuals for grave violations of international law, like crimes against humanity, torture and war crimes – even if they are committed abroad by foreign perpetrators against foreign victims."

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-africa-united-nations-war-crimes-europe-6bdb1d4ea6d13830fdf048e46ec8199e

 

There is also another initiative going on here:

 

High-Level Launch Meeting of the Group of Friends of Accountability Following the Aggression Against Ukraine

The GoF will serve as an informal forum for states dedicated to ensuring accountability for international crimes committed following the Russian invasion of Ukraine with the aim of:

Information sharing among states and relevant international organizations, institutions, and civil society in order to optimize the process of accountability and the delivery of justice.

Including and engaging smaller states, whose capacity to follow the development of accountability measures may not match the importance they attach to the respect for the rule-based international order.

 

https://www.ipinst.org/2022/03/high-level-launch-meeting-of-group-of-friends-of-accountability-for-ukraine

 

They're not going there to waste their time:

 

International Criminal Court team head to Ukraine for war crimes investigation

A team from the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague has left for Ukraine to start investigating possible war crimes, its top prosecutor has said.

Hours before their departure on Thursday, Prosecutor Karim Khan said he would start collecting evidence as part of a formal investigation launched after Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

"Yesterday I formulated a team and today they are moving to the region," Mr Khan told Reuters.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/international-criminal-court-team-head-to-ukraine-for-war-crimes-investigation-12556564

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck getting Putin into the court. Not going to happen, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

The US/Nato should stand its ground, issue a similar threat to Putin (and that might get a change of leadership in itself) and call Putin out, and start to ship its fighter planes to Poland to allow them to pass on their fighter aircraft to the Ukraine.

Seriously? You actually think Ukrainian pilots can jump into the cockpit of a strange aircraft and win against Russian pilots?

 

Those planes cost multi millions of $ and I doubt the US wants them falling into Russian hands to look at the secret stuff in them.

 

Ukraine is not in NATO so what grounds does NATO have to get involved?

 

Seems like some on here want WW3 between nuclear armed countries. What could possibly go wrong with that?