Why do we continue to receive smaller pensions than European expats?

[cmarshall]

4 hours ago, stigar said:

I get 44721 NOK every month.I get a high pension because its higher if get an goverment approved pension after a accident at work offshore.From 20 of march 2 different incurecompines will pay me about 3000 NOK extra pr month.In 2018 the incurance gave me almost 2,6 million NOK after the accident.THey also gave me 70.000 NOK  for future transportbills.So its a big different depends what country ur from and pay ur tax to.

Most retirees do not come from a country of 5 millions with a sovereign wealth fund of USD 1.3 trillion.

[KanchanaburiGuy]

BTW, 

I collect Social Security from the US. I have it deposited in a US bank, and then simply do a Bangkok Bank ATM withdrawal once a month. Because more than half my income simply goes into savings each month, I don't worry about the little I could save doing it "better." 

 

On the other hand, my Thai National wife is also entitled to receive Social Security, based on my account (she never worked in America.) She's entitled to approximately half what I receive. 

 

BUT! 

 

She is only entitled to that money while she's in America! When she's in Thailand, she's not! 

 

When she leaves the US, she's supposed to notify Social Security to stop her payments. When she returns, she then notifies them again, and payments will begin again the following month. 

 

Every country has their funny little rules! 

 

555

[NanaSomchai]

4 minutes ago, SunsetT said:

This must only apply to 'benefit claimants' as thousands of retired UK folk holiday or spend time abroad in 2nd homes for over a month without telling the DWP. A pension is not a benefit!

Yet I'm willing to bet a lot of these expat-style pensioners are not telling the British government they have retired abroad and are keeping an address somewhere in the UK with good reason; following the law would most likely be detrimental to their entitlement rights as it has been hinted in this thread.

[chilly07]

I maintain a UK address but I would never use it to circumvent the state pension rules despite successive governments immoral and illegal pension freezes. Just a little investigation by DWP would result in me being liable to a cancellation of my state pension which I cannot afford. There is a standing parliamentary committee on frozen pensions but to date they haven't made a breakthrough despite Brexit negotiations with many worldwide countries on new trade deals which include pension rights especially Australia and Canada and the remaining 27 EU countries without any progress being made

[victor15]

If you return to live in the UK permanently, (this includes the Philippines) your State Pension will be increased to current levels. If you subsequently move to a country where annual increases are not paid your pension will not increase in the future.

 

So if you leave Thailand for the Philippines you will receive the updated pension straight away, stay there for a 6 month 3 day holiday and then return to Thailand you will keep the updated pension, but not future increases.

 

Do this every few years and your laughing

[grahamuk]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

1. Since always ........... 10% from employee (limited), and 10% from employer (unlimited).

Employers aren't charitable institutions you're the one that really pays it all.

 

2. I earned was paid a lot more than you.

I love these people who edit their posts AFTER I've replied.

 

Sorry to dent your ego incidentally, but I very much doubt you earned more than me (the bit you edited in). Most of my working life I was self-employed,   but if that's important to you. ????  Okay.  

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I was told by a man at NAV that pensions are reduced if the recipient lives in Thailand, no matter what the value of the pension is.

For a norwegian lived and worked 40 years in Norway afer 16 years old, have the right to get full pention even in Thailand. 
 

I have no idea how the rules are if you have less than 40 years in Norway after 16 years old. 

[NanaSomchai]

13 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

BTW, 

I collect Social Security from the US. I have it deposited in a US bank, and then simply do a Bangkok Bank ATM withdrawal once a month. Because more than half my income simply goes into savings each month, I don't worry about the little I could save doing it "better." 

The proper and safest way to do it in my opinion. Get your funds/benefits/social security/pension deposited in your account and then do transfers or ATM withdrawals at your own leisure.

 

Don't feed the governments. The less they know, the better.

 

13 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

On the other hand, my Thai National wife is also entitled to receive Social Security, based on my account (she never worked in America.) She's entitled to approximately half what I receive. 

 

BUT! 

 

She is only entitled to that money while she's in America! When she's in Thailand, she's not! 

 

When she leaves the US, she's supposed to notify Social Security to stop her payments. When she returns, she then notifies them again, and payments will begin again the following month. 

Yeash, that's usually how it works everywhere else in the World. Countries just have different regulations.

 

In my opinion: Keep it quiet and carry on. Discretion is key.

Edited March 1, 2022 by NanaSomchai

[grahamuk]

5 minutes ago, victor15 said:

Do this every few years and your laughing

Do the maths.... taking into account airfares, removal costs, visa fees, etc. ..... for a very few quid a month...to be some sort of aged nomad.  Hmm. 

[Hummin]

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

For a norwegian lived and worked 40 years in Norway afer 16 years old, have the right to get full pention even in Thailand. 
 

I have no idea how the rules are if you have less than 40 years in Norway after 16 years old. 

@KannikaP

 

Basic pension (grunnpensjon)

In order to receive a full basic pension, you must have been a member of the National Insurance Scheme for 40 years. If you have been a member of the National Insurance Scheme for less than 40 years, the pension will be reduced accordingly.

Minimum pension level (minste pensjonsnivå)

In order to receive a full minimum pension level, you must have been a member of the National Insurance Scheme for 40 years. If you have been a member of the National Insurance Scheme for less than 40 years, the pension will be reduced accordingly.

Supplementary pension (tilleggspensjon)

In order to receive a supplementary pension, you must have had pension points in Norway for at least 3 calendar years.

In order to receive a supplementary pension, you must have worked in Norway for at least 40 years. If you have worked in Norway for less than 40 years, the pension will be reduced accordingly.

Your income must have been higher than the Basic Amount to be classed as pensionable.

 

you find more information here

https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1123&langId=en&intPageId=4713

[Lakegeneve]

6 hours ago, itsari said:

The European Court Of Human Rights ruled against the plaintiff on the UK Government on indexed linked pension payments to those living abroad in 2008.

Australia decided to abandon any social agreement with the UK on this issue . 

I think there needs to be a case taken to the UN human rights court in Geneva to reverse that decision by Australia .

FYi, there is no UN Human Rights Court in Geneve.

 

However, there are HR Committees which can receive indicidual communiques pursuant to relevant Optional Protocols of various Human Rights Treaties. They only accept complaints against member states who are signatory to the relevent treaty only after all domestic remedies have been exhausted. You need to pass this threshold first and lodge the complaint within 12 months of exhausting domestic remedies.

 

Most likely, you would need to consider a communique submitted in accordance with the Procedure under the Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/TBPetitions/Pages/IndividualCommunications.aspx#ICESCR

 

As with the majority of international law (eg. Philippines v PRC South China Sea maritime boundary decision), you should note that decisions of the Committee (CESRC) are non-enforcable and implementation of any determination is on the basis of the goodwill of the relevant state member to accept the Committees determination and act accordingly. However, non compliance/non enforcement will be noted in future periodic treaty reporting of the state.

 

I'd suggest the best bet to achieve your aim is a political process of lobbying a specific party to adopt your sought redress as a policy platform prior to the next election. (Assuming still registered to vote & do vote)

[fredscats]

10 minutes ago, grahamuk said:

Do the maths.... taking into account airfares, removal costs, visa fees, etc. ..... for a very few quid a month...to be some sort of aged nomad.  Hmm. 

Yes do the math     lost half his pension in 10 years    more than a few quid

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, Hummin said:

For a norwegian lived and worked 40 years in Norway afer 16 years old, have the right to get full pention even in Thailand. 
 

I have no idea how the rules are if you have less than 40 years in Norway after 16 years old. 

40 yrs....yikes

 

I barely have 20 yrs of total salaried employment ... ????

[NanaSomchai]

45 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I knew there was a reason not for using these, besides they waste valuable time and leave a carbon footprint.

Also it's not limited to Facebook pages, twitter accounts, VK profiles and other well known blogging sites, nor it is limited to the UK.

 

Let me introduce you to Bjørn Lisd*rf, or simply Bjorn, is a Danish former YouTuber, live streamer, and internet personality.

 

https://youtube.fandom.com/wiki/Bjorn_TV

 

Basically this guy is married to a Thai woman whom he travels the World with, live streaming "worthless trashy content" from Denmark but also most notably the USA, Thailand, the United Kingdom, and the Netherlands, all that while receiving a Danish Disability pension along with the equivalent of Universal Credit for unemployment.

 

During 2015 he was reported to the Danish authorities by one of his livestreaming competitors (presumed), shortly after the tipping, the Danish authorities carried a thoughtful investigation resulting in stripping him from his disability pension, his unemployment pension, but also forced him to reimbursed the ill-gotten funds as he was sentenced to 3 months of jail time for having committed a benefits fraud.

 

After serving his 3 months of jail sentence, as he got out the revenue service launched then a separate and second investigation based on the allegations that during these livestreams he was getting substantial donations and tips from it's viewers. While the amounts were ridiculously low (we're not even talking of 300£ per month in donations here), it was still considered as palatable income. Income which he failed to declare to the Danish tax office, so he was forced to pay some taxes on these donations with you guessed it... hefty fines and penalties for 1) failing to declare income and 2) overdue payments.

 

While this case may seem rather extreme, it should serve as a reminder that committing benefit fraud, pension fraud is never risk free and should you get caught, well... it rarely ends well.

 

In all and all, what prevails here is discretion, at all times.

 

 

[grahamuk]

11 minutes ago, fredscats said:

Yes do the math     lost half his pension in 10 years    more than a few quid

Exactly.

Half of next to f.all is... 

[rickudon]

Yes, the UK pension is insufficient to live on in Thailand. One thing which peeved me was the 'New state pension', for all new pensioners, which we were promised would end Pensioner poverty - it would be about 25% higher than the basic old state pension.

 

Didn't work out that way though. You needed more years to qualify for the full rate, no married pension and no widow's pension (in most cases). Also, and not announced until a few months before it came into effect, was that if you had been in a company pension scheme they cut your pension by up to about 20%. So how much more did the new pension give me compared to the old pension? One pound a week. To get that, i had to work for 2 more years, and lost all partner pension rights. I received the magnificent sum of just over 130 GBP a week in State pension (a little over 20,000 baht). And because i now had more total pension, had to start paying tax again......... so net increase was more like 16,000 baht.

I have enough to qualify for the marriage extension, but probably never enough for the retirement.

 

No Company pension scheme in the UK i know off is not indexed linked, and you can live anywhere. (if you take your pension as a lump sum, and buy a personal pension  as an annuity, it may not be indexed linked, your choice). It is totally unfair that not all State pensions are index linked. Other benefits fair enough, they are intended for specific UK related costs, but the basic pension should be up-rated annually for everyone.

 

Answer to one query raised on here, how to avoid getting a proof of life letter, if your pension is paid into a UK bank account, Uk address, they just ask the bank if your account is still active (I think).

[Hummin]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

40 yrs....yikes

 

I barely have 20 yrs of total salaried employment ... ????

if Im not wrong, 20 years of work is the minimum during those 40 years. Not sure

[itsari]

2 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

What nonsense !...

 

If you don't have 65k (or 40k for some) a month you break the laws of your country of residence.

 

And the OP never said that his UK state pension is only income.

You live here but appear to have little knowledge of what happens here .

First off i said that many can live on 15000 a month if they have there own home . Meaning you have no morgage or rent to pay .

If you have 800,000 in a thai bank account you do not need to show what income you have . OK Boomer ?

[Lemsta69]

6 hours ago, verticalift said:

Consider yourself lucky receiving £177/month from the UK.
 

As a recently retired Canadian Expat previously employed as a pilot in Abu Dhabi, I receive a meager $440.80CAD, or between 11,000 to 11,500 Baht each month (depending on the ROE) from the Canadian Gov’t.

 

Though I had planned working to age 65yrs, when Covid rolled around in 2020, the UAE Gov’t decided to sack…… Oupps, sorry….. “Retire” most all crews over 60yrs of age. I was 62 at the time and employed as a Senior Captain flying helicopters to the offshore oil platforms out of Abu Dhabi.
 

Making application to start receiving my Canadian Pension with direct wire transfer of Pension funds to my Thai bank account, for the first 12 months the Canadian Gov’t posted me paper cheques. My Thai bank would then charge me approx 500 Baht to deposit each CAD$$$ cheque into my Thai bank account. Fortunately in late 2021 I was able to get the direct wire transfer issue sorted, saving myself 6,000B/yr.

 

Having lived in Phuket for over the past 24yrs, commuting to/from work in Abu Dhabi, I am most fortunate that the house is all bought and paid for and my expenses are minimal. But, going from $16,000+K USD per month down to 11,000 Baht per month is most certainly…….

”Challenging”.

Enjoy your retirement…..

 

surely you amassed a gigantic private pension in your 24 years of working and therefore require no assistance from the Canadian government. if not, why not?

[itsari]

3 hours ago, Andy261 said:

Manageable to live?

I would say manageable to survive.

Depends what you need in life Andy . 

If you survive you are living  .

[losername]

6 hours ago, Asquith Production said:

If theirs one thing that the UK Government does that angers me is this inequality with pensioners. I have my pension paid into my UK bank and then move across when the exchange rate is favorable. It does not cost the UK Government anything extra so I do not understand this so called reciprocal agreement. The only thing different is my address. 

 

The UK have actually committed fraud in my opinion and it is about time that  everybody got together to fight this.

Well said.  In fact the argument is even stronger than you say because the government has many savings that further reduce the cost to it.  I'm no expert on this but my understanding is that many UK based pensioners receive benefits relating to housing, council tax, bus passes, winter warming and, of course, the big one, NHS health care etc.  The least they could do is to give us The State Pension we earned.

[itsari]

3 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

How was he caught, someone must have told on him ,

Immigration bmw tracked him maybe ?

[Gottfrid]

4 hours ago, foreverlomsak said:

When I considered relocating to Thailand the calculations said that after receiving all my pensions I would have in the order of 90K THB per month, after arrival the government then moved the age for my private pension (from 50 to 55 hence used savings for 5 years) and my state pension (from 65 to 66) along with other changes to the scheme which means that I am no longer entitled to a full pension, approx. 24% less.

Aligned with the drop in exchange rates since arriving here I am now expecting to have less than 55K THB per month.

That my friend is reality.

Yes, it is! It´s also sad to hear the system changes in such negative ways. However, you did right to calculate with the need of 90. That´s why you have 55 now. Think about a person that would start with what you have now. They would only get 30. That why I state a high number, because it creates safety.

[Gottfrid]

4 hours ago, Expat68 said:

That all depends on where you live in Thailand, Bangkok, Phuket, Chiang Mai certainly but up country in Issaan, half that easily

It also depends on what life you wish to create for yourself.

[Spilornis]

59 minutes ago, victor15 said:

If you return to live in the UK permanently, (this includes the Philippines) your State Pension will be increased to current levels. If you subsequently move to a country where annual increases are not paid your pension will not increase in the future.

 

So if you leave Thailand for the Philippines you will receive the updated pension straight away, stay there for a 6 month 3 day holiday and then return to Thailand you will keep the updated pension, but not future increases.

 

Do this every few years and your laughing

Seems easy but how do you demonstrate an intention to live in the pension friendly country without severing ties with Thailand.

With the UK price increases over the last year the coming index amount (bearing in mind it compounds over the years) could be substantial

[Gottfrid]

5 hours ago, itsari said:

Oh yeah Elon . Life is what you make it 

Yes , one of the reasons i moved here was the cost of living .

 

Yeah, I got that. I am happy to hear you got it down to the bare minimum. ????????????

[Laughing Gravy]

27 minutes ago, NanaSomchai said:

Also it's not limited to Facebook pages, twitter accounts, VK profiles and other well known blogging sites, nor it is limited to the UK.

 

Let me introduce you to Bjørn Lisd*rf, or simply Bjorn, is a Danish former YouTuber, live streamer, and internet personality.

 

https://youtube.fandom.com/wiki/Bjorn_TV

 

Basically this guy is married to a Thai woman whom he travels the World with, live streaming "worthless trashy content" from Denmark but also most notably the USA, Thailand, the United Kingdom, and the Netherlands, all that while receiving a Danish Disability pension along with the equivalent of Universal Credit for unemployment.

 

During 2015 he was reported to the Danish authorities by one of his livestreaming competitors (presumed), shortly after the tipping, the Danish authorities carried a thoughtful investigation resulting in stripping him from his disability pension, his unemployment pension, but also forced him to reimbursed the ill-gotten funds as he was sentenced to 3 months of jail time for having committed a benefits fraud.

 

After serving his 3 months of jail sentence, as he got out the revenue service launched then a separate and second investigation based on the allegations that during these livestreams he was getting substantial donations and tips from it's viewers. While the amounts were ridiculously low (we're not even talking of 300£ per month in donations here), it was still considered as palatable income. Income which he failed to declare to the Danish tax office, so he was forced to pay some taxes on these donations with you guessed it... hefty fines and penalties for 1) failing to declare income and 2) overdue payments.

 

While this case may seem rather extreme, it should serve as a reminder that committing benefit fraud, pension fraud is never risk free and should you get caught, well... it rarely ends well.

 

In all and all, what prevails here is discretion, at all times.

 

 

Thanks for that. Interesting read. I am not Danish. I also am not suggesting I would be committing any fraud at all. Discretion is always important and i tell nobody nothing, always have lived that way.

 

But if you feel that you want to "dob me in' go ahead. Assuming you know who I am, when I will claim my state pension, if at all. Where I will be living. I could go on and on.  ????

 

[itsari]

45 minutes ago, Lakegeneve said:

FYi, there is no UN Human Rights Court in Geneve.

 

However, there are HR Committees which can receive indicidual communiques pursuant to relevant Optional Protocols of various Human Rights Treaties. They only accept complaints against member states who are signatory to the relevent treaty only after all domestic remedies have been exhausted. You need to pass this threshold first and lodge the complaint within 12 months of exhausting domestic remedies.

 

Most likely, you would need to consider a communique submitted in accordance with the Procedure under the Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/TBPetitions/Pages/IndividualCommunications.aspx#ICESCR

 

As with the majority of international law (eg. Philippines v PRC South China Sea maritime boundary decision), you should note that decisions of the Committee (CESRC) are non-enforcable and implementation of any determination is on the basis of the goodwill of the relevant state member to accept the Committees determination and act accordingly. However, non compliance/non enforcement will be noted in future periodic treaty reporting of the state.

 

I'd suggest the best bet to achieve your aim is a political process of lobbying a specific party to adopt your sought redress as a policy platform prior to the next election. (Assuming still registered to vote & do vote)

Good of you to contribute your knowledge on obtaining justice from goliath . 

Your comment that there is no UN court in Geneva is wrong as there is indeed a court sitting there listening to human rights cases . 

Australia does not follow the UN rules on refugees . Why should they bother to follow any decision from a UN human rights court concerning pensions  i ask my self .

 

[Burma Bill]

11 hours ago, webfact said:

as this is not indexed linked

Same here in Cambodia. 

When I was 65 I started drawing 102 GBP per week (single person). I still draw the same pension 13 years later!!. Fortunately I also have index linked UK Civil Service and Local Government pensions.

[Kinnock]

6 hours ago, wombat said:

Welcome to the realization that somewhere in the Civil Service is a member of staff who was promoted for saving the treasury money 

..... and who is jealous of people who retired in Thailand.