Not all daily fatalities attributed to Covid-19 infections mainly caused by the infection, Thailand’s Public Health Ministry says

[webfact]

PHOTO: Post Today

 

By Nop Meechukhun

 

Bangkok – 10 to 30 percent of daily fatalities attributed to the Covid-19 infections were not caused by the infection, Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health admitted Thursday, March 10th.

 

Dr. Kiattiphum Wongrajit, Permanent Secretary of the Public Health Ministry, told the Associated Press that a new way of reporting daily fatalities must be applied as the ministry found that some of them were not mainly caused by the Covid-19 infection, with people dying “with” Covid-19 but not “from” the virus.

 

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He stated that about 10 to 30 percent of recorded Covid-19 fatalities were not caused directly by the virus. The victims tested positive but were found with mild symptoms and their deaths were from other health conditions or issues. Some cases of Covid-19 were detected after their death and some were treated at hospitals due to symptoms from their chronic diseases and tested positive before being treated at the hospitals. When these patients were deceased, they were reported as dying due to the virus, in fact, they did not.

 

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Full story: https://thepattayanews.com/2022/03/11/not-all-daily-fatalities-attributed-to-covid-19-infections-mainly-caused-by-the-infection-thailands-public-health-ministry-says/

 

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[ukrules]

An interestingly timed development.

 

When I read this headline elsewhere a few hours ago I thought to myself - the number of daily deaths must have increased above at least one of the neightbouring South East Asian countries.

 

Sure enough, that's exactly what's just happened, now they're changing the way they count them.

 

It's a game of numbers and face saving and they're competing against each other in this region, all that matters to them is that Thailand is 'seen to be doing better' than places like Malaysia and Vietnam.

[arithai12]

46 minutes ago, ukrules said:

An interestingly timed development.

 

When I read this headline elsewhere a few hours ago I thought to myself - the number of daily deaths must have increased above at least one of the neightbouring South East Asian countries.

 

Sure enough, that's exactly what's just happened, now they're changing the way they count them.

 

It's a game of numbers and face saving and they're competing against each other in this region, all that matters to them is that Thailand is 'seen to be doing better' than places like Malaysia and Vietnam.

I don't know about your timing theory, but for sure the statement by Dr. Kiattiphum is correct. The way covid deaths are counted leaves much to be desired, and not only in Thailand.

[Thaiwrath]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

a new way of reporting daily fatalities must be applied as the ministry found that some of them were not mainly caused by the Covid-19 infection, with people dying “with” Covid-19 but not “from” the virus.

A strategy that should have been used from the onset of the virus !

[blazes]

The argument over "with" or "of" Covid has been active for most of the pandemic, but now that several countries are beginning to "confess" to this kind of double counting, let's hope the ....er....truth will come out all over the world and some re-calculation of the numbers will be attempted.  

It may yet turn out that we have suffered the lockdown $hite for no very good reason.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, blazes said:

The argument over "with" or "of" Covid has been active for most of the pandemic, but now that several countries are beginning to "confess" to this kind of double counting, let's hope the ....er....truth will come out all over the world and some re-calculation of the numbers will be attempted.  

It may yet turn out that we have suffered the lockdown $hite for no very good reason.

Hindsight is 20-20.

But I would not say for 'no very good reason'. The dangers of the early variants were very real......

Edited March 11, 2022 by jacko45k

[candide]

2 hours ago, arithai12 said:

The way covid deaths are counted leaves much to be desired, and not only in Thailand.

Exactly! You may well be right to suggest that there's something wrong in the way Covid deaths are counted! ????

 

The number of excess deaths for the month of February (compared to February 2021) is 3967. It's 5 times higher than the official Covid deaths count (763) for February. 

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

 

I am not sure your statement also applies also applies to other countries, as there is usually not such a big difference between Covid deaths count and excess deaths from all causes count (at least in most developed countries).

[stereolab]

13 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

 

All Covid related deaths should also show, the age of the deceased and, any and all other diseases they were suffering from, eg Male,86, liver  and heart disease.

[blazes]

13 minutes ago, stereolab said:

All Covid related deaths should also show, the age of the deceased and, any and all other diseases they were suffering from, eg Male,86, liver  and heart disease

Those plus fat, diabetes, cancer etc.  But fat above all.

[Enoon]

13 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

 

Perhaps you previously saw "something like that" here (see explanation of rates beneath graph). It has been the practice for some time:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51768274

 

[kotsak]

13 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

 

30 days is not bad. Back home it's 4 months.. It's just says it all about the inflated numbers.. 

[internationalism]

just as number of infections is much higher, just not enough testing being done, so is with mortality.

Judging from what I have seen at th local hospital, where majority are for covid.

Myself I went for mild lung infection (I am post omicron already), but was automatically pushed into covid ward and diagnosed with some random condition.

 

[jacko45k]

4 hours ago, stereolab said:

All Covid related deaths should also show, the age of the deceased and, any and all other diseases they were suffering from, eg Male,86, liver  and heart disease.

Why... you are worse than insurance companies, Sounds like you want to deny Covid kills and allocate another reason... why do you want to do that?

Edited March 12, 2022 by jacko45k

[Mr Derek]

Of course some of us have known this all along but have been shouted down by the fear-mongerers who now really need to start asking themselves what damage they have done - for example, in causing people to avoid seeking treatment for other illnesses over the past two years. The collateral damage is  probably quite shocking.

 

Now I'm waiting to hear them admit that omicron has more or less replaced ordinary influenza (as it apparently has done in India: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/consider-all-flu-cases-covid-omicron-leading-strain-niv/articleshow/89232146.cms )

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by onthedarkside
unsourced claims removed

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Mr Derek said:

and not only that, but admit that current omicron death figures are actually lower (according to data I have seen) than the normal influenza death figures in Thailand the past which means all these continued precautions are utterly unjustified. 

Or possibly Covid measures and behaviors are keeping the numbers down. Some justification there and confirmation they work.

[Mr Derek]

23 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Or possibly Covid measures and behaviors are keeping the numbers down. Some justification there and confirmation they work.

I doubt it. It's pretty intuitive that Covid is transmitted mainly at home amongst family members. Nobody wears a mask at home. See the loophole that renders all country-wide preventive measures useless?

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, Mr Derek said:

I doubt it. It's pretty intuitive that Covid is transmitted mainly at home amongst family members. Nobody wears a mask at home. See the loophole that renders all country-wide preventive measures useless?

Presumptive, a lot of spreading was allotted to schools opening too. Also sporting events were labelled super spreading events. The idea was families created their own bubble early on. Country wide measures have saved many lives.

[Mr Derek]

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Presumptive, a lot of spreading was allotted to schools opening too. Also sporting events were labelled super spreading events. The idea was families created their own bubble early on. Country wide measures have saved many lives.

Not presumptive, I think it is intuitively obvious. And when you factor in the collateral damage (other illnesses going untreated, psychological stress of social distancing and economic hardship), those preventive measures may realistically have done a lot more harm than good.

 

[candide]

4 hours ago, Enoon said:

Perhaps you previously saw "something like that" here (see explanation of rates beneath graph). It has been the practice for some time:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51768274

 

Excellent article. It allows to compare Thailand with UK about the way Covid deaths may be counted vs. excess deaths..

 

Thailand: 23,646 official Covid deaths from the begin of the pandemic to 12 March. To compare with 70,950 excess deaths* from 1 April 2021 to 29 February 2022. That's around 3times more!

 

UK: 162,738 official Covid deaths. To compare with 143,032 excess deaths, That's minus 12%

 

So in one country (Thailand) the number of excess deaths is around 3 times more than the Covid deaths count, and in another country (UK) the number of excess deaths is the number of covid deaths minus 12%.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51768274

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

(* the sum of excess death numbers for each months, from the attached figure. The numbers in the square on the Tailand figure show the example of the month of February)

Edited March 12, 2022 by candide

[spidermike007]

Finally someone admits what many of us have believed since the beginning. Who knows how many of the deaths attributed to Covid were caused by other factors, and how many people were already quite ill with a multitude of maladies, when they caught Covid. 

 

In a normal year, nearly 650,000 people worldwide die of the flu. How many "flu deaths"  have we heard about since March 2020?

 

In my opinion, so many aspects of the "Covid narrative" are misleading. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by spidermike007

[Captain Monday]

If granny dies at 82 with covid-19 but she could have lived to 86 without does that make it OK?

[Petey11]

10 hours ago, blazes said:

The argument over "with" or "of" Covid has been active for most of the pandemic, but now that several countries are beginning to "confess" to this kind of double counting, let's hope the ....er....truth will come out all over the world and some re-calculation of the numbers will be attempted.  

It may yet turn out that we have suffered the lockdown $hite for no very good reason.

With or of is a good point, heart attack death and they had COVID, definitely with but a lot of conditions like diabetes etc, COVID can likely be a contributing factor. A lot of underlying conditions can be lived with for many years but COVID just pushes them over the edge. Must remember COVID does not just cause lung problems, it can cause many other problems leading to organ failure. 

[stereolab]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Why... you are worse than insurance companies, Sounds like you want to deny Covid kills and allocate another reason... why do you want to do that?

 

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Why... you are worse than insurance companies, Sounds like you want to deny Covid kills and allocate another reason... why do you want to do that?

I fully understand that COVID kills, I took the injections as suggested, all 3 now. However, let us call these deaths correctly, so WITH rather than OF.  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There's been a deliberate and extensive misinformation campaign by COVID-skeptic and anti-vax groups to misrepresent the entire issue of how COVID deaths are counted, dealing with the "of" vs "with" issue. But in fact, globally, several independent research groups have estimated that actual COVID deaths are probably three times or so higher than the official counts.

 

The details of the short answer and truth of this are -- people who die of COVID don't generally die of the virus itself alone, but rather, they die of various effects the virus causes in the body such as respiratory failure, pneumonia, heart, liver, kidney failure, strokes and on and on.

 

So invariably, when COVID has set in motion the process of killing someone, there are almost always other parallel conditions (so-called comorbidities) that end up getting listed on the death certificate. In the case of COVID deaths, those other conditions either wouldn't have occurred at all, or might have been pre-existing but wouldn't have been acutely fatal, were it not for COVID.

 

The presence of those other comorbidities doesn't mean it wasn't COVID that actually triggered the decline in health that led to the fatality.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The Economist has periodically been updating their COVID death estimates both globally and by country, including in current time into 2022. They estimate Thailand has had 59,540 COVID deaths since April 1, 2020 -- almost three times the officially reported number. Worldwide, they're estimating that global COVID deaths are just about three times the official tally of about 6 million.

 

It's a matter of UNDER counting COVID deaths, not overcounting them.

 

 

 

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates

 

[candide]

58 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The Economist has periodically been updating their COVID death estimates both globally and by country, including in current time into 2022. They estimate Thailand has had 59,540 COVID deaths since April 1, 2020 -- almost three times the officially reported number. Worldwide, they're estimating that global COVID deaths are just about three times the official tally of about 6 million.

 

It's a matter of UNDER counting COVID deaths, not overcounting them.

 

 

 

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates

 

That's in the same order of magnitude as my estimate of excess deaths using Ourworldindata numbers. 

 

Discussions about comorbidities are really hair-splitting, as there are so large discrepancies between official covid numbers and excess deaths numbers.

[aqua4]

Falang jumps off a building. They take a PCR test and his death gets counted as a Covid death?

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, stereolab said:

 

I fully understand that COVID kills, I took the injections as suggested, all 3 now. However, let us call these deaths correctly, so WITH rather than OF.  

Doesn't matter, we needed some metric to keep tabs on where this was going, what was working or not. Denial of the metrics, or changing them mid stream, is muddying the waters, and in some cases a deliberate attempt to quell the reality. Death certificates do not have the extra columns for 'with a mole on his nose'!

[bkk6060]

The numbers are not 100%, but the comments by some that "they all would have died anyway" are totally bogus.   Yes, they may have died of some other disease but it was exacerbated by Covid.

Many who were sick or had some disease would still be alive if not for this bug.

[Bkk Brian]

9 hours ago, ed strong said:

 

Over 2 years of this and people still believe this myth? Either that or deliberately promote fake news.

 

"If someone dies in circumstances involving an accident, violence or suspicious circumstances, the case is referred to a coroner for investigation. A post-mortem examination is carried out and usually an inquest is held. The Coroner's Court hears all the evidence and follows legal rules of evidence when deciding the causes of death. It is extremely unlikely that a coroner would find that someone was involved in a traffic accident, or was the victim of violence, because of having COVID-19 or a positive COVID-19 test -- so they would not mention COVID-19 on the death certificate. This applies to any death caused by an accident, violence, poisoning, or other external causes."

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics?:uri=aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics