Joe Biden says Putin is a 'war criminal'

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, Putin is just an alleged war criminal , it hasnt been proven and it has been denied by the Russians  . 

And by Russias online apologists, don’t forget those will you?!

[ozimoron]

Just now, cmarshall said:

Ukraine's freedom is simply not available.  To arm them and encourage them to provoke the Russian bear is the height of cruel stupidity.  Like a lot of people who have seen too many movies, you think this is about morality, but it's not.  It's about great power politics.  The great powers, the US, Russia, and China all pursue their own interests ruthlessly without reference to morality.  

Not available? You don't believe that Ukraine should be free to join the EU and NATO if it wishes? Ukraine is a poor country and it sees an opportunity to lift itself into prosperity.

[cmarshall]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Not available? You don't believe that Ukraine should be free to join the EU and NATO if it wishes? Ukraine is a poor country and it sees an opportunity to lift itself into prosperity.

You are experiencing a deep semantic confusion between the words "should" and "are."  

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

So you don't believe his actions amount to war crimes? I'm asking what you think, we all know that he won't face a court that he doesn't even recognise. I'm trying to flush out the Putin apologists here and make then declare their hand.

I have no idea , its difficult to get unbiased reports from the war zone . 

Biased news reports from both sides, denials , claims of false allegations etc 

  So, without any partial news reports, I cannot make the call 

[ozimoron]

Just now, cmarshall said:

You are experiencing a deep semantic confusion between the words "should" and "are."  

In what way? If you prefer, Ukraine IS free to join the EU and NATO.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have no idea , its difficult to get unbiased reports from the war zone . 

Biased news reports from both sides, denials , claims of false allegations etc 

  So, without any partial news reports, I cannot make the call 

What about the photos of destroyed residential buildings, hospitals and schools and the millions of refugees? Just western propaganda?

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have no idea , its difficult to get unbiased reports from the war zone . 

Biased news reports from both sides, denials , claims of false allegations etc 

  So, without any partial news reports, I cannot make the call 

Do you think all the videos of flattened towns and cities had no civilians in them or the photos and videos of the civilians lying dead in the streets are dummies?

[tgw]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

 

There are more than one former member of US government that should have been tried for war crimes and other crimes.

 

But it doesn't make what Putin is doing right.

 

Putin is a war criminal.

He won't win in Ukraine.

Putin is a war criminal who badly miscalculated. He's politically already dead. Nobody will ever forgive him.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have no idea , its difficult to get unbiased reports from the war zone . 

Biased news reports from both sides, denials , claims of false allegations etc 

  So, without any partial news reports, I cannot make the call 

I will accept without question that on the basis of your comments you have had ‘some difficulty’ in accessing ‘unbiased reports’.

 

I don’t feel it necessary to inquire what those ‘difficulties’ are.

[cmarshall]

Just now, ozimoron said:

In what way? If you prefer, Ukraine IS free to join the EU and NATO.

It's not down to what you or I "prefer."  The fact of the matter is that Ukraine's current choice comes down to acquiescing to Russian dominance as gracefully as possible or watch all of his cities turned to rubble.  You might as well argue with plate tectonics.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Do you think all the videos of flattened towns and cities had no civilians in them or the photos and videos of the civilians lying dead in the streets are dummies?

I think some of these people are on a payroll to troll sites like this, honestly.

[tgw]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I think some of these people are on a payroll to troll sites like this, honestly.

And you think right.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

It's not down to what you or I "prefer."  The fact of the matter is that Ukraine's current choice comes down to acquiescing to Russian dominance as gracefully as possible or watch all of his cities turned to rubble.  You might as well argue with plate tectonics.

You are making some rather rash assumptions.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I think some of these people are on a payroll to troll sites like this, honestly.

OK, I do think that I shouldn't reply anymore ,

[tgw]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

It's not down to what you or I "prefer."  The fact of the matter is that Ukraine's current choice comes down to acquiescing to Russian dominance as gracefully as possible or watch all of his cities turned to rubble.  You might as well argue with plate tectonics.

Putin can't win in Ukraine.

Every building that gets destroyed and every Ukrainian who dies, and also every Russian who dies in Putin's stupid war is only making Putin's final bill more expensive and more humiliating.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

32 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

War crimes are 

 

War crimes

Violations of the laws or customs of war, including:

• Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war
• murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory
• murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas
• killing of hostages
• torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
• plunder of public or private property
• wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
• devastation not justified by military necessity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/overview/crimes_1.shtml

Yep, plenty of evidence of Russia ticking a number of those off.

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, tgw said:

Putin can't win in Ukraine.

Every building that gets destroyed and every Ukrainian who dies, and also every Russian who dies in Putin's stupid war is only making Putin's final bill more expensive and more humiliating.

 

You are another dreamer.  Putin may not be able to annex Ukraine, even in the unlikely event that that is his goal, but he can destroy it.  And the US and the EU are powerless to stop him.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, cmarshall said:

You are another dreamer.  Putin may not be able to annex Ukraine, even in the unlikely event that that is his goal, but he can destroy it.  And the US and the EU are powerless to stop him.

You seem to have missed the bit about the US and EU, UK destroying the Russian economy.

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 

In what way has the Ukraine demonstrated that is may be a threat to Russia? It has never invaded Russia. It has never poisoned a Russian president.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You are another dreamer.  Putin may not be able to annex Ukraine, even in the unlikely event that that is his goal, but he can destroy it.  And the US and the EU are powerless to stop him.

He said it was. He already did annex Crimea and the Donbass regions.

Edited March 19, 2022 by ozimoron

[tgw]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

Not assumptions.  I am taking Putin at his word that a Ukraine in NATO and the EU is an existential threat to the Russian Federation that he will not tolerate. 

yes, that's what he says.

is it true ?

what would it mean for Russia to have NATO in Ukraine ?

would it mean that NATO would attack Russia ?

 

[tgw]

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You are another dreamer.  Putin may not be able to annex Ukraine, even in the unlikely event that that is his goal, but he can destroy it.  And the US and the EU are powerless to stop him.

Even if he destroys Ukraine, Putin would still lose.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

Even if he destroys Ukraine, Putin would still lose.

President Volodymyr Zelenskiy called on Saturday for comprehensive peace talks with Moscow to stop its invasion of Ukraine, saying it would otherwise take Russia "several generations" to recover from its losses in the war.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/meaningful-talks-needed-stop-russia-ukraine-zelenskiy-says-2022-03-19/

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

yes, that's what he says.

is it true ?

what would it mean for Russia to have NATO in Ukraine ?

would it mean that NATO would attack Russia ?

 

It doesn't matter if it is objectively "true."  Russia is a great power, because it has lots of nukes.  That means that you have to take seriously what they say rather than expecting that instead you can talk them out of it.  

 

When the Soviets put tactical and intermediate range nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962, the US similarly regarded that "threat" as existential and intolerable to the point of making the risk of a nuclear war worth taking even though President Kennedy pointed out to his executive committee that, in fact, the balance of power had not changed since the Soviet nuclear-armed subs already had enough firepower to reduce the US to ashes.

 

That's what great powers do: they act on their own perceptions of threat from the enemy.

[cmarshall]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

Even if he destroys Ukraine, Putin would still lose.

Putin isn't likely to lose.  Neither his oligarchs nor his citizens are going to rise up against him no matter what happens.  His economy may take a hit, but the Russians will tolerate that.  

 

You have to separate what you wish to happen from what is likely to happen.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

It doesn't matter if it is objectively "true."  Russia is a great power, because it has lots of nukes.  That means that you have to take seriously what they say rather than expecting that instead you can talk them out of it.  

 

When the Soviets put tactical and intermediate range nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962, the US similarly regarded that "threat" as existential and intolerable to the point of making the risk of a nuclear war worth taking even though President Kennedy pointed out to his executive committee that, in fact, the balance of power had not changed since the Soviet nuclear-armed subs already had enough firepower to reduce the US to ashes.

 

That's what great powers do: they act on their own perceptions of threat from the enemy.

And cowardly great powers invade smaller, weak nations on the assumption that the West won't risk nuclear war by stopping them.  Unfortunately for Russia, they miscalculated.

 

Stalled Russian Troops Beg for Food

 

Cmdr. Muslim Chiberloevsky (R), leader of a Chechen brigade fighting with the Ukrainians and for a free and independent Chechnya / John Sweeney

 

https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/stalled-russian-troops-beg-for-food/

 

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Putin isn't likely to lose.  Neither his oligarchs nor his citizens are going to rise up against him no matter what happens.  His economy may take a hit, but the Russians will tolerate that.  

 

You have to separate what you wish to happen from what is likely to happen.

You're speculating and then accusing others of doing the same thing.

[tgw]

9 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

It doesn't matter if it is objectively "true." 

 

It does matter.

Putin lives in a delusion.

Even his motive for war is a delusion.

The power of his military is a delusion.

 

Quote

When the Soviets put tactical and intermediate range nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962

that was when the Soviet Union was a superpower...

 

Deluded Putin thinks Russia is one as well...

Edited March 19, 2022 by tgw

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Putin isn't likely to lose.  Neither his oligarchs nor his citizens are going to rise up against him no matter what happens.  His economy may take a hit, but the Russians will tolerate that.  

 

You have to separate what you wish to happen from what is likely to happen.  Otherwise you just make a fool of yourself.

Popular protest has erupted worldwide, including in Russia. In the first nine days of Russia’s new war, more than 1,800 public demonstrations protested its unprovoked aggression, according to the independent research organization ACLED. The protests, across at least 93 countries and territories, included at least 150 demonstrations in Russia, “95 percent of which were met with state intervention,”

 

https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/03/global-resistance-putins-war-historic

 

Protests have sprung in Moscow and other Russian cities since the attack began in the early morning hours of Feb. 24. As of Thursday, more than 8,000 people had been detained at anti-war protests across the country, according to tracking by OVD-Info. And several billionaire oligarchs – arguably the most powerful group of people in Russia other than Putin himself – have spoken out against the attack.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-03-04/war-weary-russians-threaten-trouble-for-vladimir-putin-amid-ukraine-attack

Edited March 19, 2022 by ozimoron

[Fat is a type of crazy]

42 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Ukraine's freedom is simply not available.  To arm them and encourage them to provoke the Russian bear is the height of cruel stupidity.  Like a lot of people who have seen too many movies, you think this is about morality, but it's not.  It's about great power politics.  The great powers, the US, Russia, and China all pursue their own interests ruthlessly without reference to morality.  

You seem to assume Russia is going to win. You may be making the same mistake as Putin and thinking too much about politics and power and not enough about the effect morality and ethics is having on the people and soldiers on both sides. Around the world too. 

Cynicism about politics and power and human nature can only take you so far. 

Russia  has lost control and influence in neighbouring nations through it's own actions. This effort to reverse it's decrease in influence is showing to be a disaster. 

Ukraine has decided one side is better for its' interests than the other. The human toll is terrible but Ukrainians have decided that given the alternative of living under the control of a thug it is best to fight.