Joe Biden says Putin is a 'war criminal'

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You are confusing the world you wish with the world you have.  In some abstract sense Ukraine ought to be able to align itself with the West if it wishes to, but the simple reality, as Putin is now demonstrating unambiguously, is that it can't, because Putin won't let them.  And the West is not going to stop him.  So, the Ukrainians' choice is Rubble or Russian; nothing else is possible.

 

Beyond the Holodomor the Ukrainians bore the brunt of WWII.  That still doesn't mean that somehow they are now in a position to defeat the invading Russian army of 150,000 troops.  That is not going to happen.  

 

The destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan by the Americans disqualifies them from calling Putin a war criminal.

What's possible is that Russia will become a pariah nation for decades to come with very little economy to speak of. Biden and other western leaders have made that clear. You seem to be ignoring the pressure on Russia's economy which is already running out of cash.

 

If the US is disqualified from calling Putin a war criminal there are plenty of other western leaders accusing him of war crimes. Clearly you don't agree that he is a war criminal.

[tgw]

6 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan by the Americans disqualifies them from calling Putin a war criminal.

Logic subroutine error : 404 logic not found

 

but anyway: everyone calls Putin a war criminal. Except Belarus, North Korea and China...

 

Quote

That still doesn't mean that somehow they are now in a position to defeat the invading Russian army of 150,000 troops.  That is not going to happen.  

it's happening now. just watch.

[Hellfire]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:21 PM, cmarshall said:

It doesn't matter if it is objectively "true."  Russia is a great power, because it has lots of nukes.  That means that you have to take seriously what they say rather than expecting that instead you can talk them out of it.  

 

When the Soviets put tactical and intermediate range nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962, the US similarly regarded that "threat" as existential and intolerable to the point of making the risk of a nuclear war worth taking even though President Kennedy pointed out to his executive committee that, in fact, the balance of power had not changed since the Soviet nuclear-armed subs already had enough firepower to reduce the US to ashes.

 

That's what great powers do: they act on their own perceptions of threat from the enemy.

What is there about Russia that makes it a “great power” or “super power”? Economy the size of Texas? Do you know about any modern technology coming from Russia? Or may be it is a Russian military machine which is basically stuck in the 70s-80s of the past century? And what about the African levels of corruption? What is there so Great  about modern Russia and their dictator that the whole world should be submissive to its so called “interests”? 

 Oh, I know what. Those nuclear bombs inherited by Mad Vlad from his grandfather Joseph Stalin.  And then, what is the difference between Putin and another terrorist breaking into the kindergarten with the bomb in his hands and taking hostages? Is that what real power all about? And isn’t it actually the sign of a Great weakness, instead?

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.

 

Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

https://web.archive.org/web/20200714204022/http://www.summitbucharest.gov.ro/en/doc_202.html

14 years later, so pretty obvious it was not going to happen in the future, even Zelensky said "we could not join, its the truth and it must be recognized"

 

By the way, no need to go to the wayback machine, its live on the NATO website, its no secret:

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

[cmarshall]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

What's possible is that Russia will become a pariah nation for decades to come with very little economy to speak of. Biden and other western leaders have made that clear. You seem to be ignoring the pressure on Russia's economy which is already running out of cash.

 

If the US is disqualified from calling Putin a war criminal there are plenty of other western leaders accusing him of war crimes. Clearly you don't agree that he is a war criminal.

There may indeed be downsides for Russia, but nothing that is going to prevent them from achieving their goal of destroying Ukraine.   

[ozimoron]

European Union governments will consider whether to impose an oil embargo on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine as they gather this week with U.S. President Joe Biden for a series of summits designed to harden the West's response to Moscow.

 

Diplomats said a Russian chemical weapons attack in Ukraine, or a heavy bombardment of the capital Kyiv, could be a trigger for an energy embargo.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-mull-russian-oil-embargo-with-biden-set-join-talks-2022-03-21/

[onthedarkside]

A flame post toward a fellow forum member has been removed, along with an ensuing reply.

 

 

[cmarshall]

28 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

What is there about Russia that makes it a “great power” or “super power”? Economy the size of Texas? Do you know about any modern technology coming from Russia? Or may be it is a Russian military machine which is basically stuck in the 70s-80s of the past century? What is there so Great  about modern Russia and their dictator that the whole world should be submissive to its so called “interests”? 

 Oh, I know what. Those nuclear bombs inherited by Mad Vlad from his grandfather Joseph Stalin.  And then, what is the difference between Putin and another terrorist breaking into the kindergarten with the bomb in his hands and taking hostages? Is that what real power all about? And isn’t it actually the sign of a Great weakness, instead?

 

 

 One avoids confronting a nuclear power not out of respect, but out of the most justified fear imaginable.  If the Ukrainians and the US manage to push Putin into a corner he will use his nukes.  Ukraine cannot win.  They should realize this, distance themselves from the US, and work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can.  If not the Western media will cheer the Ukrainian heroism until there is nothing left but rubble.

[cmarshall]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

14 years later, so pretty obvious it was not going to happen in the future, even Zelensky said "we could not join, its the truth and it must be recognized"

 

By the way, no need to go to the wayback machine, its live on the NATO website, its no secret:

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

So, you missed the point about how the US's supplying arms to Ukraine against the Russians already puts them in the Western alliance?

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 One avoids confronting a nuclear power not out of respect, but out of the most justified fear imaginable.  If the Ukrainians and the US manage to push Putin into a corner he will use his nukes.  Ukraine cannot win.  They should realize this, distance themselves from the US, and work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can.  If not the Western media will cheer the Ukrainian heroism until there is nothing left but rubble.

Then, which non NATO country is next? Moldovia where there is already a strong Russian military presence?

[ozimoron]

Just now, cmarshall said:

So, you missed the point about how the US's supplying arms to Ukraine against the Russians already puts them in the Western alliance?

Does China supplying arms to Russia put them in the Chinese alliance?

[Chomper Higgot]

39 minutes ago, Hummin said:

It seems for the moment to be a suicidal war for both parts, unlikely what we have seen for a long time, except Chechenya as a good reference , and maybe the best reference to this war! 
 

The difference is, Chechnya have only 1,4 million people, Ukraine have 40 million. 300 000 Chechens died in that war. 
 

And you can spare me for labelling me a russian  troll, nice attempt to annoy me and shame me for seeing it a bit different than the loudest typewriter worriers in here. 

Ukraine is engaged in a fight for its survival as an independent sovereign nation, it’s a tragic predicament forced upon it by the illegal invasion ordered by Putin.

 

There’s nothing ‘suicidal’ about Ukraine’s fight, so please forgive inferences we might draw from you asserting this clear fallacy.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

There may indeed be downsides for Russia, but nothing that is going to prevent them from achieving their goal of destroying Ukraine.   

There you go with your crystal ball again.

[Hummin]

37 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

Ukraine is fighting for its EXISTENCE in this Russian antidemocratic war of aggression, it's not suicidal. Suicidal would be to give in to Russia, because it would mean the end of democratic Ukraine. Again.

And, no, Ukrainian people are not willing to accept that. They proved it in 2004 and again in 2014 and again now.

They are fighting for their freedom from Russia.

They don't want Russian thugs' fingers in their politics and economy.

And they are ready to defend their democracy.

Psychology the loudest on each sides, and the more convinst(also extremists), is more likely to take side, pending on what side their information they based their opinion on. 
 

Can you accept there could be other solutions than war? Do you accept even Putin is the aggressor, Russians might see it different, and I am allowed to bring light to other views than just go out and fight a devastating war? 
 

Do you understand it is convinient to have Putin as the enemy in Europe out of many reasons? 
 

We have tried to make the axis of evil before, and what have those actions against those evils led to? 
 

Can you accept this is a game played by the world leaders, who is willing to sacrifice humans by pushing the right buttons at the right time?

 

Do you believe in creating evil? Is that possible?
 

Again

There is no doubt who is the dictator and aggressor who have the power to stop this anytime he want! And that is Putin. Putin is a war criminal and should be prosecuted! Should be unecssery to write, but with people who like to make others meaning fits their view, my posts needs and disclaimer.

[cmarshall]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Then, which non NATO country is next? Moldovia where there is already a strong Russian military presence?

It's called a sphere of influence.  During the Cold War the US and the USSR acknowledged each other's spheres of influence and mostly avoided confrontations in those zones.  When they failed to respect the opponent's sphere of influence such as in Cuba in 1962 all hell broker loose nearly resulting in a nuclear exchange.  But then after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the triumphant US decided unilaterally that it had no such similar obligation to respect any sphere of influence of the Russian Federation.  The current ongoing destruction of Ukraine is the direct result of the Americans' hubris. 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

So, you missed the point about how the US's supplying arms to Ukraine against the Russians already puts them in the Western alliance?

So's a host of other countries including Finland which is not even in Nato

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Does China supplying arms to Russia put them in the Chinese alliance?

China has not supplied arms to Russia,  Biden has explained the problems of doing so.

[Hellfire]

12 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

There may indeed be downsides for Russia, but nothing that is going to prevent them from achieving their goal of destroying Ukraine.   

In the worst case scenario (for Ukraine), there will be a full scale partisan war that will make the earth burning under the feet of the Russian soldiers. Because this is what inevitably happens when you invade such a big country with such a big population 99% of whom hate you and consider being an evil aggressor. Whoever thinks Putin can control Ukraine (or even half of it) is a worst kind of a dreamer.

[Bkk Brian]

20 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

One avoids confronting a nuclear power not out of respect, but out of the most justified fear imaginable.  If the Ukrainians and the US manage to push Putin into a corner he will use his nukes.  Ukraine cannot win.  They should realize this, distance themselves from the US, and work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can.  If not the Western media will cheer the Ukrainian heroism until there is nothing left but rubble.

Ukraine has already won the first stage of this invasion, you may have missed that........

[cmarshall]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Does China supplying arms to Russia put them in the Chinese alliance?

Absolutely it does.  And this is another direct result of the stupid and callous confrontation with Russia that the US has created with its unrelenting expansion of NATO.  The main threat to the US is not from Russia, with its economy smaller than Texas, but from China whose economy has been larger than the US's since 2010 on a purchasing power parity basis.  The US ought to have been making an ally of Russia against China, but instead has now pushed them into the Chinese camp since there is no where else for them to go.  Smart think, US strategists!

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

In the worst case scenario (for Ukraine), there will be a full scale partisan war that will make the earth burning under the feet of the Russian soldiers. Because this is what inevitably happens when you invade such a big country with such a big population 99% of whom hate you and consider being an evil aggressor. Whoever thinks Putin can control Ukraine (or even half of it) is a worst kind of a dreamer.

It’s not so much the dreaming, as the eagerness to parrot Russian propaganda.

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Ukraine has already won the first stage of this invasion, you may have missed that........

According to the Hollywood version of the news.  To the more sober-minded of us the notion that you are winning when you have a 150,000 strong armed force occupying your country is ridiculous. 

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

European Union governments will consider whether to impose an oil embargo on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine as they gather this week with U.S. President Joe Biden for a series of summits designed to harden the West's response to Moscow.

 

Diplomats said a Russian chemical weapons attack in Ukraine, or a heavy bombardment of the capital Kyiv, could be a trigger for an energy embargo.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-mull-russian-oil-embargo-with-biden-set-join-talks-2022-03-21/

They will discuss it and that's about it

Boycott of Russian gas and oil ‘could cause mass poverty in Germany’

Minister warns an immediate stop to supplies could hurt Germany’s population more than Putin

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-gas-oil-boycott-mass-poverty-warns-germany

 

More than 80 % of energy imports are petroleum products in Cyprus, Malta, Greece and Sweden and more than a third is gas in Hungary, Italy, Austria and Slovakia. Around 20 % of energy imports are solid fuels in Poland and Slovakia.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/infographs/energy/bloc-2c.html#carouselControls?lang=en

 

Some EU countries are 100% dependent on Russian Oil and Gas

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

According to the Hollywood version of the news.  To the more sober-minded of us the notion that you are winning when you have a 150,000 strong armed force occupying your country is ridiculous. 

Hollywood does not come into it..............

 

@TheStudyofWar now assesses that Ukraine has “defeated the initial Russian campaign in this war” and that Russia no longer has the forces to take Kyiv and other major cities to force a change of gov’t. ISW believes war will likely descend into “a bloody stalemate.” -@Reevellp

https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-19

 

[tgw]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

According to the Hollywood version of the news.  To the more sober-minded of us the notion that you are winning when you have a 150,000 strong armed force occupying your country is ridiculous. 

Afghanistan and Vietnam would like a word...

 

[Hellfire]

24 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 One avoids confronting a nuclear power not out of respect, but out of the most justified fear imaginable.  If the Ukrainians and the US manage to push Putin into a corner he will use his nukes.  Ukraine cannot win.  They should realize this, distance themselves from the US, and work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can.  If not the Western media will cheer the Ukrainian heroism until there is nothing left but rubble.

So, following you logic, the same should happen when Putin invades Poland, Baltic states and whatever country he will feel like to invade? Again those countries will have “to work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can”. And where will this cowardly position lead us all in the end? Any ideas?

 

 

[cmarshall]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Hollywood does not come into it..............

 

@TheStudyofWar now assesses that Ukraine has “defeated the initial Russian campaign in this war” and that Russia no longer has the forces to take Kyiv and other major cities to force a change of gov’t. ISW believes war will likely descend into “a bloody stalemate.” -@Reevellp

https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-19

 

Same thing happened when the Finns defeated the Red Army in 1939.  Subsequently, the Soviets corrected their deficiencies with the result that they still hold the Karelian Peninsula today.    

[Hummin]

29 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

What is there about Russia that makes it a “great power” or “super power”? Economy the size of Texas? Do you know about any modern technology coming from Russia? Or may be it is a Russian military machine which is basically stuck in the 70s-80s of the past century? And what about the African levels of corruption? What is there so Great  about modern Russia and their dictator that the whole world should be submissive to its so called “interests”? 

 Oh, I know what. Those nuclear bombs inherited by Mad Vlad from his grandfather Joseph Stalin.  And then, what is the difference between Putin and another terrorist breaking into the kindergarten with the bomb in his hands and taking hostages? Is that what real power all about? And isn’t it actually the sign of a Great weakness, instead?

 

 

How many nuclear weapons does Russia have?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60564123

 

Nuclear weapons pose the single biggest threat to the Earth's environment, scientists have warned.

In a new study of the potential global impacts of nuclear blasts, an American team found even a small-scale war would quickly devastate the world's climate and ecosystems, causing damage that would last for more than a decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2006/dec/12/nuclearindustry.climatechange

[cmarshall]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

Afghanistan and Vietnam would like a word...

 

So, maybe the Russians will get tired of occupying Ukraine twenty years from now?

[spidermike007]

No doubt this is true. Deliberately targeting women and children is heinous and criminal. Lock him up!