British press support UK pensioners losing out in Thailand

[Capella]

The woke Johnson government hates pensioners. The woke opposition hates expatriates because they vote for the woke Johnson government.

 

Nothing will change. 

[Jonathan Swift]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:46 AM, 10baht said:

F'ing social engineering, You get what you vote for. And the idiot liberals in the States want to be more like the the EU. OMG thank heaven it's a slow process and I will be dead by the time it might happen. Maybe the Ukraine War will wake some people up.

I don’t know where you get your ideas, but people in the US, primarily low income, would like equal access to affordable health care and education, as well as reasonable sick and maternity leave, etc., following the examples of obvious better systems elsewhere, whether it’s EU or the North Pole. There are plenty of conservatives who agree on this. Your broadly insulting, inaccurate, and malicious reference to “idiot liberals” is ludicrous and the mark of a narrow mind. You’re not painting yourself in a good light.  What exactly is at the root of your malice toward groups of people in a country you clearly  know nothing about? It’s not a matter of liberal vs conservative, or democratic vs republican, or a matter of wanting to be “more like the EU” across the board,  it’s a matter of the greed of the wealthy and powerful vs the working class, who struggle daily just to lead simple satisfying lives and meet their basic needs and to not live in fear. The EU has a good many widely recognized successes on all counts. But I suppose all you can see is what’s wrong with everything. I’m a US citizen of 65 years. How many years have YOU spent in the US? The need for education and what happens when you don’t have one  is clear by virtue of your own words. Your malice toward your apparent enemy “idiot liberals” is part of the problem. It’s exactly that kind of divisiveness and ideological warfare which has torn American democracy apart, as well as threatens all democracies of the world, and pits people against their fellow human beings wherever it takes root. . You talk about the Ukraine war but you yourself are clearly at war with those whose ideas differ from yours. You’re not much different from the Russians.  Some of us have actual fact based ideas, because we open mindedly observe and fact check before we draw conclusions, and are willing to critique our own ideas rather than argue .  People DON’T  always get what they vote for, because politicians are expert liars and con artists, in the pockets of oligarchs, and by the time people realize they’ve been conned it’s too late,  and so there’s nowhere to turn but to blame their favorite scapegoat, which those politicians are happy to provide. It’s a a trademark of the uninformed to easily take potshots at their favorite scapegoats rather than actually learn about history, politics, class warfare, and socio-economic forces. And would you please explain how you imagine the Ukraine war will “wake some people up”? To what? To think like and agree with you? How does that terrible tragedy have anything at all to do with expat UK pensioners? What it has done is unite NATO, and your beloved EU, in a worthy cause to defend and protect even YOUR freedom and even your right to say dumb things.  I’d say everyone is pretty well wide awake, except for perhaps you. Lastly,  have you ever done anything constructive to positively affect the world around you in any way? Besides blessing us all with your views? Or do you sit around wasting space doing nothing but complain?

[Jonathan Swift]

This is not an informed opinion as I am not familiar with the workings of this particular UK pension. But in the US our social security is based on the principle that every person who pays into the fund over a lifetime is entitled to their fair share, bought and paid for under law,  no matter where they live, as a fundamental right as a citizen. It is regarded as a guaranteed contract.  It is not considered a benefit to be withheld to penalize or punish someone for living elsewhere, or as a reward for being a flag waving patriot. The patriotic duty of the government is to guarantee every citizen his/her due. However, the health coverage Medicare does not cover overseas retirees simply because there is no international participation with that network. I don’t know if this framework applies to the UK situation, but it seems it would be nice if it did. I don’t think loyalty, nationalism, or flag waving patriotism should be deciding factors, but that is me as an American, and not imposing that view on the UK where I’ve never been.  I am not privy to the financial condition of the UK pension fund, but in the US it has been claimed for decades that our social security will bankrupt itself at some vague and moving point in the near future. There have been adjustments such as moving retirement age to 67 from 65, but it is inconceivable to flat out deny anyone for any reason, and it would be political suicide for any leader to even try to change the status quo. .

[10baht]

35 minutes ago, Jonathan Swift said:

And would you please explain how you imagine the Ukraine war will “wake some people up”? To what?

I have lived the the USA most of my adult life, except when  serving my country and working overseas before retiring. I am only answering because took so much time to write you comments. The wake up is to see that the move to green energy too fast, is having unintended consequences, i.e. EU's dependence on Russia's energy. And mostly I do not want the nanny state which is much of the EU in the States. Sorry for the misunderstanding. 

[soi3eddie]

12 hours ago, Bangkocker said:

Well of course people should be free to pursue a happier life elsewhere. But in many pensions there are benefits embedded in the pension payment - to help the said people cope with rising cost of living in their home countries. Such as inflation indexed benefits, power supplements etc. It seems reasonable that people shouldn't receive these same benefits should they decide to relocate elsewhere.

....and there's no cost of living increase or inflation in Thailand?

 

[ttrd]

13 hours ago, Bangkocker said:

Well of course people should be free to pursue a happier life elsewhere. But in many pensions there are benefits embedded in the pension payment - to help the said people cope with rising cost of living in their home countries. Such as inflation indexed benefits, power supplements etc. It seems reasonable that people shouldn't receive these same benefits should they decide to relocate elsewhere.

Agree to a certain point, BUT it should have been a kind of a middle way - an annual raise depending on the location you moved to as a minimum as cost of living raises everywhere - not only in the UK ... Btw, I am not from the UK, I am a norwegian and we get the yearly increase whether we stay in Norway or we choose to live elsewhere as long as you have lived/worked/been a member of the national insurance scheme for minimum 20 years prior to move abroad.

[Flink]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:02 AM, Mansell said:

You get the increase in Spain, but not in Commonwealth countries? That is plainly a <deleted> you to all the people who payed into the system for decades. And what is the rational for no increases if your in the Falkland Islands? But if your on Gibraltar or Malta you get it?

I guess they use the savings to fund the lifestyle of the Embassy staff here in Thailand. What a slap in the face for all the pensioners who have fought for the UK in whatever conflict who opted to live elsewhere.

And it's not just the pension itself. My parents retired to France and still got things like the winter heating allowance!

[Sparktrader]

I wish i got a pension. Lucky to get one. I have to work.

[billd766]

49 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

I wish i got a pension. Lucky to get one. I have to work.

Some of us have worked for 50 years or more and paid 44 years of NI and STILL get a frozen UK state pension.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by billd766

[Bangkocker]

10 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

....and there's no cost of living increase or inflation in Thailand?

 

Of course there is. But Why should the English government finance that, when you have 'chosen' to fly the coop.

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, nchuckle said:

Not semantics. ALL income is subject to tax -fact. Additionally,how many could fund a retirement here (or really anywhere abroad) on a state pension of under £10k which is little more than HALF of the 65k baht per income requirement for a retirement visa ??

Id be quite happy to forego my personal allowance- because that would have to be commensurate with having to pay no tax at all in the UK ! The two are intertwined by definition. 

Yes it is, same pot.... folks on a State pension only would not pay UK taxes on it. You try to make it sound more onerous than it really is. I recall maybe a year or more ago there was some discussion of removing the allowance for non-residents, but them still being taxed on any UK income.... probably click bait. I did not realize that would mean paying no tax at all... and find it incredulous. Surely they can write the rules as they see fit. 

[sandyf]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:57 PM, ChrisKC said:

Yet Ex-Pats in European Countries and a few others DO get the increase.

Ex Pats in EU countries are not entitled to the increase under the argument the government puts forward for not paying it to everyone.

When the reciprocal agreement with the EU came to an end they made a special arrangement for those in the EU.

If there was the will and the means to mount a challenge, any decent legal team could take them to task over that. They get away with it because nobody is particularly interested. The media mounted a campaign in support of the Waspi case(Woman Against State Pension Inequality) but for us it is out of sight,out of mind. 

[sandyf]

On 5/2/2022 at 7:15 PM, billd766 said:

Why should he pay tax on his pension?

 

The state pension is less than the personal tax allowance and in effect is tax free.

It is a play on words Bill.

The state pension is effectively taxed because it gets deducted from the personal allowance.

The only difference between that and any other pension is that the tax cannot be deducted at source.

[sandyf]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:53 AM, Will B Good said:

Don't answer if you don't want to (obvs), but why do you not receive any military pension?

Prior to 1975 you had to serve a pensionable engagement to get a pension,normally 22 years for non commissioned. In 1975 they introduced deferred pensions(payable at 60) for a reduced period of service but it was gradual and those discharged before 1975 weren't eligible for a deferred pension.

I was extremely fortunate, I came out about 18 months after the deferred pension was introduced or I would have got nothing for my 14 years of service.

[paddypower]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:46 AM, 10baht said:

F'ing social engineering, You get what you vote for. And the idiot liberals in the States want to be more like the the EU. OMG thank heaven it's a slow process and I will be dead by the time it might happen. Maybe the Ukraine War will wake some people up.

that does make much sense, does it. ? assuming your  US citizen, you have to pay tax on your world income. That's not exactly fair, either is it? The way the US is going down the crapper (who'd want to live there? ) 13 yr old black kid shot dead by police, while lying on the ground, unarmed.

[paddypower]

18 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

I don’t know where you get your ideas, but people in the US, primarily low income, would like equal access to affordable health care and education, as well as reasonable sick and maternity leave, etc., following the examples of obvious better systems elsewhere, whether it’s EU or the North Pole. There are plenty of conservatives who agree on this. Your broadly insulting, inaccurate, and malicious reference to “idiot liberals” is ludicrous and the mark of a narrow mind. You’re not painting yourself in a good light.  What exactly is at the root of your malice toward groups of people in a country you clearly  know nothing about? It’s not a matter of liberal vs conservative, or democratic vs republican, or a matter of wanting to be “more like the EU” across the board,  it’s a matter of the greed of the wealthy and powerful vs the working class, who struggle daily just to lead simple satisfying lives and meet their basic needs and to not live in fear. The EU has a good many widely recognized successes on all counts. But I suppose all you can see is what’s wrong with everything. I’m a US citizen of 65 years. How many years have YOU spent in the US? The need for education and what happens when you don’t have one  is clear by virtue of your own words. Your malice toward your apparent enemy “idiot liberals” is part of the problem. It’s exactly that kind of divisiveness and ideological warfare which has torn American democracy apart, as well as threatens all democracies of the world, and pits people against their fellow human beings wherever it takes root. . You talk about the Ukraine war but you yourself are clearly at war with those whose ideas differ from yours. You’re not much different from the Russians.  Some of us have actual fact based ideas, because we open mindedly observe and fact check before we draw conclusions, and are willing to critique our own ideas rather than argue .  People DON’T  always get what they vote for, because politicians are expert liars and con artists, in the pockets of oligarchs, and by the time people realize they’ve been conned it’s too late,  and so there’s nowhere to turn but to blame their favorite scapegoat, which those politicians are happy to provide. It’s a a trademark of the uninformed to easily take potshots at their favorite scapegoats rather than actually learn about history, politics, class warfare, and socio-economic forces. And would you please explain how you imagine the Ukraine war will “wake some people up”? To what? To think like and agree with you? How does that terrible tragedy have anything at all to do with expat UK pensioners? What it has done is unite NATO, and your beloved EU, in a worthy cause to defend and protect even YOUR freedom and even your right to say dumb things.  I’d say everyone is pretty well wide awake, except for perhaps you. Lastly,  have you ever done anything constructive to positively affect the world around you in any way? Besides blessing us all with your views? Or do you sit around wasting space doing nothing but complain?

amazed you didn't get any thumbs up. that is a good piece of well written well thought writing. off the grid for a lot of posters here, including ''Captain America <deleted>''

[bert bloggs]

The more i read about fozen pensions,especially after someone has paid in for over 40 yeats the more i doesnt seem like " fraud" to keep an addtess back home and claim what you paid in for ,seems like the vjance of getting caught is quite slim.

[Arkady]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:48 AM, LivinLOS said:

People expect too much.. They also have this false idea that paying into a pension is somehow 'thier money returned to them' when it isnt !! Whats paid in now is spent now, whats paid out now is a drain on the current workforce now. You get the benefits of the now payment in government services when you pay it.. 

Plus UK pension input can be an absolute pittance standard class 2 self employed stamp in the UK is 3:15 a week !! 163 quid a year and you can claim a pension with 10 years contribution.. a full pension with 35 years.. And then you think this is going to pay out 1000s a year for 20 30 years index linked ? Do the math !! 

You want a pension for your expat lifestyle go get a private pension or savings plan. 

Unfortunately the UK government just regards pension contributions as its revenue to be spent as it pleases in the year it receives them, while it regards pension payments as current expenses to be paid out of current income or borrowings. Some countries like New Zealand and Singapore actually invest the pension contributions for the future benefit of the pensioners or, as in Singapore, allow the contributors to invest their own contributions.

 

The UK approach is nothing short of state sponsored theft.  The contributions are in reality just another stealth tax.

[whiteman]

Dreams are FREE

[LivinLOS]

19 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Unfortunately the UK government just regards pension contributions as its revenue to be spent as it pleases in the year it receives them, while it regards pension payments as current expenses to be paid out of current income or borrowings. Some countries like New Zealand and Singapore actually invest the pension contributions for the future benefit of the pensioners or, as in Singapore, allow the contributors to invest their own contributions.

 

The UK approach is nothing short of state sponsored theft.  The contributions are in reality just another stealth tax.

Totally agree.. its tax, current contribution for a current government outlay.. If your old and in the UK when your too old to work you may be part of that outlay and receive a token payment to keep you from eating cat food and sleeping on the streets.. Dont want that as an outcome ? maintain and control your own private pension, take it with you were you go as its your own asset. 

[Nong Khai Man]

When I Left the U.K.In 2016 My REDUCED Pension ( I Only had 24 FULL Years of contributions,when I Should have had 30 Years ) Was FROZEN at 288.00 GBP Paid Every 4 Weeks.....How the HELL are you supposed to " LIVE " On that even here in Thailand ???

Edited May 4, 2022 by Nong Khai Man
More Added

[Liverpool Lou]

On 5/2/2022 at 2:36 PM, Thunglom said:

Whether or not pensioners living abroad receive increases in UK state pensions is a bit random....

No, it is not "a bit random", it is very specific.

[Thailand]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:53 AM, Will B Good said:

Don't answer if you don't want to (obvs), but why do you not receive any military pension?

I could tell you but then - you know the rest!

[Liverpool Lou]

On 5/2/2022 at 5:44 PM, prakhonchai nick said:

Or arrange a poste restante in the Philippines

And still have your pension paid to a Thai bank?  That may raise a red flag in the DWP that you may have to explain to their satisfaction.

 

The proof of life certificate of a British "Philippines resident" coming via Thailand Post is something else that you'd have to have a good explanation for.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Liverpool Lou

[Golden Triangle]

I find the whole thing slightly bizarre, I have a private pension, no need to talk about that, I also have a frozen state pension, that is still the same value it was when it commenced, I also have an army pension, not massive but it actually pays all my monthly standing bills - electric, water, internet plus some left over for grocery shopping & a few cases of beer or bottles of wine, that gets uprated every year.

 

Both are government money, when I queried the disparity I was told that my army pension is classed as a private pension, the state pension is classed as a benefit, but they are both government money coming from the same government. Very strange ???

[Liverpool Lou]

On 5/2/2022 at 7:36 PM, Kwasaki said:

What if you lived there in Phillipines 6months and Thailand 6months that's what some guys do UK and Thai 6 months.

The difference is that those residential arrangements would be legitimate as opposed to those pretending that they live in the Philippines.

[Thunglom]

39 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it is not "a bit random", it is very specific.

As I pointed out It varies from country to country and there seems no logic behind it - what do you see as "specific"?

[hashmodha]

I just saw we are over 10,800 signatures.....My opinion is this it to do with reciprocal agreement with the countries not included in the index linking of Pensions.... Now what these reciprocal agreements mean I have no idea... Does any one else know?....And my other opinion is that this is a huge task to sign these agreements with all these countries not included in the index linking!... and to put them into action.!.... also the Bill has to pass through and voted in House Of Lords before it becomes law.... just my opinion....I may be wrong!

From the Guardian... because there is no legal requirements...and therefore no indexation!

“The government’s policy on the uprating of the UK state pension for recipients living overseas is a longstanding one of more than 70 years, and we continue to uprate state pensions overseas where there is a legal requirement to do so.”

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by hashmodha
Additional information

[Liverpool Lou]

22 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

It’s not a matter of liberal vs conservative, or democratic vs republican, or a matter of wanting to be “more like the EU” across the board,  it’s a matter of the greed of the wealthy and powerful vs the working class,

"...it’s a matter of the greed of the wealthy..."

What's that supposed to mean?   What is the "greed of the wealthy"?

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

The more i read about fozen pensions,especially after someone has paid in for over 40 yeats the more i doesnt seem like " fraud" to keep an addtess back home and claim what you paid in for ,seems like the vjance of getting caught is quite slim.

I do not agree with our not receiving the increases but we pay in for the UK state pension and it's associated increases to receive it whilst we're residents of the UK. 

 

Governments have always made it clear that those deciding to reside in certain overseas locations will not get those additional benefits, it has never been a secret, so those choosing to live in  non-qualifying countries, despite the disadvantage, are paying in to receive only the basic pension once they leave the UK. 

 

The downside of no increases has always been common knowledge and well-promoted on the government websites.    It may not be considered to be fair but we all have the choice before we relocate.