Friday 13th: Instructor shot dead at rifle range - beginner student thought it wasn't a live round

[NoshowJones]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:56 AM, JeffersLos said:

My guess is it was due to being shot. 

He was shot in the shoulder, I am no medical expert, but I would wonder why he died from a shoulder wound? Would there not always be trained medical staff at a shooting range to stem any flow of blood?

[NoshowJones]

On 5/14/2022 at 5:43 AM, greenmonkey said:

surely a shooting range has cctv... you would think!?

How many CCTV's work in Thailand?

[Pmbkk]

23 hours ago, SomchaiCNX said:

Not surprised, to many cowboys on shooting ranges. 

 

That's why they're trying to get the Indians back ????

[Excel]

15 minutes ago, Pmbkk said:

 

That's why they're trying to get the Indians back ????

So long as the bullets contain deodorant then no problem ????

[papa al]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Yes but only at short range and if you were lucky.

Could hit a knee-cap at 200-meters pretty easy with a deer rifle.

 

[billd766]

55 minutes ago, papa al said:

Could hit a knee-cap at 200-meters pretty easy with a deer rifle.

 

But the story is about an untrained civilian with a pistol.

 

She had enough training to use the range, and to reload a single round, but not enough training to point the weapon down range to the target and fire.

 

When I did my annual range firing in the RAF, first with a .303 Lee-Enfield and later with the SLR the RAF Regiment told me, that if that was the best I could do with 30 rounds, would be to give all my ammunition to everybody else and us the rifle as a club and beat the enemy to death with it.

 

On a 25 yard range I was able to hit the target sometimes, and if the Russian soldier was 15 feet tall and 10 feet wide, at 25 yards I still couldn't kill him, but he would be so p1ssed of at me he would leave the rest of the guys alone and probably rip my head off.

[roo860]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:00 PM, Damrongsak said:

There are various sorts of dummy rounds in addition to snap caps.  Many are easily distinguishable from live rounds.  But some are not, especially to a newbie. Still no excuses for loading and pulling the trigger with the gun pointed at someone.   That range needs individual shooting stalls for safety.

 

      

These are Wadcutter rounds, use them at my local range in Chiang Mai , they make a nice round hole in paper targets, possibly she was using them.

[Damrongsak]

2 hours ago, roo860 said:

These are Wadcutter rounds, use them at my local range in Chiang Mai , they make a nice round hole in paper targets, possibly she was using them.

Not in a 9mm.  38 Special, yes. 

 

[papa al]

On 5/14/2022 at 6:15 PM, vinci said:

pointing a gun and finger on trigger aside, people do make mistake, i get it, but the fact is she literally pull the trigger, who does that

American cops.

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, papa al said:

American cops.

American actors?

[transam]

7 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

Not in a 9mm.  38 Special, yes. 

 

There is a semi-wad-cutter for 9mm, but I doubt that range would have them, but ya never know.

Many years ago I did shoot at a Thai military base range at Sattahip, using a revolver, all the ammo was wad-cutter for revolvers. 

[Mr Meeseeks]

19 hours ago, Arkady said:

Indeed there was a bill to amend the Firearms Act so that Thai nationality would required for future registrations of firearms but the bill never made it to parliament before the last general election and the current didn't attempt to revive it.  So, as the law stands, foreigners are still permitted to register firearms in their own names. A work permit and tabian baan are required and PR is preferred but not essential. It is up to local licensing authorities to issue or not.  That means Bangkok will often issue a permit to a foreigner, if he has a good reason in their opinion, such as home defence or shooting sports, and they are satisfied he can speak enough Thai to follow instructions on the range and looks a respectable type of person. Most other provinces will probably not issue to foreigners and many are usually difficult for Thais too. Bangkok licensing is done by the Interior Ministry while in the provinces is under district offices with the provincial governor able to make regulations more strict than the ministry's but not more relaxed.

Interesting, thanks for the info. 

 

I recall the news about the law being changed but didn't realise it never actually happened. 

 

This article and many others state the law, was changed in 2017.

https://www.thaienquirer.com/7572/thailands-gun-laws-and-statistics-a-brief-overview/

[Mr Meeseeks]

8 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

Not in a 9mm.  38 Special, yes. 

 

Well done, exposed a larper there, and I don't mean in the military sense. 

[papa al]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

American actors?

One.

[Guitar God]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:41 AM, Lemsta69 said:

unless you're Alec Baldwin and then it's everyone else's fault ????

At shooting ranges all guns should be considered loaded. At plays and movie sets often they’re not even real guns. 

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, transam said:

There is a semi-wad-cutter for 9mm, but I doubt that range would have them, but ya never know.

Many years ago I did shoot at a Thai military base range at Sattahip, using a revolver, all the ammo was wad-cutter for revolvers. 

-

[Bernietravelling]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:47 AM, AwwYesNice1 said:

Or even had the guy pointed anywhere but downrange.

 

 

Well, there are halfwits everywhere ….

Had that also once during my army time on the range, when the gun jammed and the trainee turned around, “it doesn’t shoot” and obviously wanted to pull the trigger again … 

 

I think, I never again in my life hit someone so fast. ????

 

[Wagga]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:34 AM, spidermike007 said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor, reported Thai Rath. She was taken to the police station for questioning but as yet no charges have been filed. 

 

Huh? Even if she thought it was a "dummy round", why would she be pointing the gun at the instructor, then firing the gun? And why would a gun have blanks at a firing range? So many unanswered questions. Looks like manslaughter to me. 

She didn't need to be pointing the gun at instructor, just waving it around so to speak and early model glocks were notorious for discharging with very little input from user. Not saying she is not a fool but she is a beginner and instructor(s) should have been more on the ball with live rounds in use. Like was earlier posted. "The gun is always loaded". # 1 lesson to instill in every new firearm user.    

[Purdey]

On 5/15/2022 at 8:11 AM, Andre0720 said:

it is the need for protection in this world

The developed world does not need protecting from guns. That's a US problem (and Latin American countries problem). Lots of stats to prove this from the FBI, CDC etc.

[Dazkkk]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:42 AM, connda said:

The range master and instructor needs to be in control of people in the range - always!

Assume your gun is loaded at all times
What do you do if you check your gun and it's unloaded?  See rule 1.
Never point your gun an anything or anyone you don't mean to shoot or kill.
Keep the muzzle pointed down-range at all times.
If a person is downrange, unload the gun, holster it, or put in on the bench with the breach open.

So let me get this right.
Student picks up a unfired bullet off the floor
Student thinks that unfired bullet is a "dummy"
Student loads "dummy" in magazine, racks a round (this isn't stated - But - there is no other way to get that round in the barrel.
Student playful shoots the instructor with a "dummy" round.

There is so much about this story that is totally - wrong.

It will become a lot clearer once the required brown envelopes change hands. ????

[Arkady]

23 hours ago, roo860 said:

These are Wadcutter rounds, use them at my local range in Chiang Mai , they make a nice round hole in paper targets, possibly she was using them.

Wadcutters in .38 special are standard fare for revolvers at Thai ranges.  Relatively under powered but a lot cheaper and make a clean round hole. 9mm wadcutters do exist but none of the Thai ammo manufacturers make them as they won't feed in most semi-autos.  They would work in 9mm revolvers but there are very few of them and they are used for IPSC, so they also need to be round nosed to feed into the cylinder fast with a speed loader.  Oddly enough semi wadcutters are popular in .45 ACP caliber for semi autos in Thailand.  They have a conical bullet with a flat nose that also makes a nice round hole and feed in most but not all .45 semi-autos. I guess semi-wadcutters are not practical for 9mm.

 

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Interesting, thanks for the info. 

 

I recall the news about the law being changed but didn't realise it never actually happened. 

 

This article and many others state the law, was changed in 2017.

https://www.thaienquirer.com/7572/thailands-gun-laws-and-statistics-a-brief-overview/

Thai Enquirer got it wrong. The law was not changed to prevent foreigners from registering firearms in 2017 because the bill never even reached parliament. I have seen several articles with the same misinformation. They just quote other articles that assumed the amendment would go through without doing any fact checking. It is pretty easy to pull out the Firearms Act and see nothing was changed.  In fact I know several foreigners who have registered firearms after 2017.

[Deerculler]

Something doesn't gel here.

[roo860]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

Wadcutters in .38 special are standard fare for revolvers at Thai ranges.  Relatively under powered but a lot cheaper and make a clean round hole. 9mm wadcutters do exist but none of the Thai ammo manufacturers make them as they won't feed in most semi-autos.  They would work in 9mm revolvers but there are very few of them and they are used for IPSC, so they also need to be round nosed to feed into the cylinder fast with a speed loader.  Oddly enough semi wadcutters are popular in .45 ACP caliber for semi autos in Thailand.  They have a conical bullet with a flat nose that also makes a nice round hole and feed in most but not all .45 semi-autos. I guess semi-wadcutters are not practical for 9mm.

 

Used this one with flat Wadcutter 9mm, probably load them themselves at the  army range Chiang Mai. 

 

[Arkady]

15 hours ago, roo860 said:

Used this one with flat Wadcutter 9mm, probably load them themselves at the  army range Chiang Mai. 

 

9mm wadcutters do exist but I have never seen them in Thailand and I don't think any of the Thai manufacturers make them, although I could be wrong. They may work in some semi-auto pistols but are likely to have trouble getting up the feed ramp in most.  Anyway there would be no demand for them, given that all Thai manufacters produce various models of 9mm lead round nose practice ammo, coated or uncoated, that feed as well as full metal jacket. For .38 revolvers it is different because wadcutters are the standard practice ammo in Thailand and most of the round nose stuff is full metal jacket and much more expensive with more recoil, although there are some lower powered coated lead round nose .38 rounds available from NRC and maybe others. These are good for competition because the wadcutters are difficult to speed load as you fiddle about trying to get them into the cylinder.

 

It is possible that the army is reloading 9mm wadcutters at your range and, since you say they work in a Glock, they might work in the Glock 19 used in the accident.  It is illegal but the cops are unlikely to cause problems for soldiers reloading at an army base. In the past there was .308 rifle ammo reloaded by the army at some of their rifle ranges but recently the Thai ammo manufacturers got approval from the government to sell locally made .308 and .223 rifle ammo to licensed ranges and they are trying to improve their quality to match standard. So no need for the army to reload and sell to civvies any more. If they are reloading 9mm wadcutters it is probably cheaper and easier for them. They can use cases picked up off the ground and maybe cut down the .38 wadcutter bullets to put in them.   I have been through the gamut of revolver and semi-auto handgun training and competition in Thailand but have now gravitated more towards more towards long guns: shotguns, semi-auto sub guns and rifles. Easier to hit the target.

[Damrongsak]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:34 PM, transam said:

There is a semi-wad-cutter for 9mm, but I doubt that range would have them, but ya never know.

Many years ago I did shoot at a Thai military base range at Sattahip, using a revolver, all the ammo was wad-cutter for revolvers. 

Yes, some shoot the SWC in a semi-auto pistol.  I just discovered that some years back, Smith & Wesson made the Model 52 semi-auto target pistol which was chambered in 38 Special and used full wadcutter bullets.  Colt made a M1911 Gold Cup National Match .38 Special Mid-Range pistol.  Both of these are rather rare and $$$.

[Arkady]

16 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

Yes, some shoot the SWC in a semi-auto pistol.  I just discovered that some years back, Smith & Wesson made the Model 52 semi-auto target pistol which was chambered in 38 Special and used full wadcutter bullets.  Colt made a M1911 Gold Cup National Match .38 Special Mid-Range pistol.  Both of these are rather rare and $$$.

I am glad you mentioned these two vintage .38 Special Mid-Range pistols because I had never heard of them and they are quite interesting. They were designed for bulls eye match shooting and It seems the S&W 52 was made in the S&W Performance Center unit in the days when that meant rigorous fitting and testing of each model (nowadays Performance Center at S&W just means a small shop at the factory where they fix defective PC models made on the regular assembly line that have been returned for repair under warranty - a fat lot of use if you bought one overseas).  I am sure it was the same case with the Colt but neither S&W or Colt employ any of those old world gunsmiths capable of this type of work any more. Making a pistol shoot rimmed revolver wadcutters is entirely feasible, if it is specifically designed for that round and is painstaking fitted and tested at the factory.  Of course it can only take that WC ammo and cannot shoot round nosed .38s.

 

As far as pistols shooting revolver ammo are concerned, Coonan makes a semi-auto pistol in .357 magnum.  Of course it can only shoot that and can't use .38 Special. I have seen one in a Bangkok gunshop for around 230,000 baht. And the Desert Eagle .44 magnum is also available for, I guess, over 200k. I have fired the Desert Eagle and it is so heavy that there is little felt recoil.  But these pistols that can only shoot expensive revolver ammo are not for me. However I would love to have a S&W Model 52.  People who have them in good condition say they can still shoot an under 2" group at 50 yards and the ammo is readily available at any range in Thailand and relatively inexpensive. If you see one for sale here legally, let me know.