Concern over side effects means parents unwilling to vaccinate young children

[onthedarkside]

A post has been removed for violating the forum's rules on fair use quoting.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

The mRNA Ebola vaccine was FDA-approved in December 2019, this is an important fact to consider with regards to claims that this technology was used for vaccines prior to Covid (which broke out in December 2019 also):

 

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/first-fda-approved-vaccine-prevention-ebola-virus-disease-marking-critical-milestone-public-health

 

I don't see any mention in that FDA announcement to that particular FDA-approved Ebola vaccine being an mRNA vaccine.

 

Rather, it says:

 

"Ervebo is administered as a single-dose injection, and is a live, attenuated vaccine that has been genetically engineered to contain a protein from the Zaire ebolavirus."

 

Elsewhere, I see Ervebo described as:

 

"rVSV-ZEBOV is a live, attenuated recombinant vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV) in which the gene for the native envelope glycoprotein (P03522) is replaced with that from the Ebola virus (P87666), Kikwit 1995 Zaire strain.^[22][24][25] Manufacturing of the vaccine for the Phase I trial was done by IDT Biologika.^[26][27] Manufacturing of vaccine for the Phase III trial was done by Merck, using the Vero cell line, which Merck already used to make its RotaTeq vaccine against rotavirus.^[28][29]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVSV-ZEBOV_vaccine#Biochemistry

 

And instead:

 

Comirnaty Becomes First-Ever mRNA Vaccine to Receive FDA Approval

 

"The FDA approved the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine earlier this week, making it the first-ever mRNA vaccine or drug to receive approval from the Agency. The historic approval demonstrates that this mRNA vaccine is a safe and effective strategy to fight COVID-19."

 

https://asgct.org/research/news/august-2021/pfizer-vaccine-approved-by-fda

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[rattlesnake]

11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I don't see any mention in that FDA announcement to that particular FDA-approved Ebola vaccine being an mRNA vaccine.

 

Rather, it says:

 

"Ervebo is administered as a single-dose injection, and is a live, attenuated vaccine that has been genetically engineered to contain a protein from the Zaire ebolavirus."

 

Elsewhere, I see Ervebo described as:

 

"rVSV-ZEBOV is a live, attenuated recombinant vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV) in which the gene for the native envelope glycoprotein (P03522) is replaced with that from the Ebola virus (P87666), Kikwit 1995 Zaire strain.^[22][24][25] Manufacturing of the vaccine for the Phase I trial was done by IDT Biologika.^[26][27] Manufacturing of vaccine for the Phase III trial was done by Merck, using the Vero cell line, which Merck already used to make its RotaTeq vaccine against rotavirus.^[28][29]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVSV-ZEBOV_vaccine#Biochemistry

 

And instead:

 

Comirnaty Becomes First-Ever mRNA Vaccine to Receive FDA Approval

 

"The FDA approved the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine earlier this week, making it the first-ever mRNA vaccine or drug to receive approval from the Agency. The historic approval demonstrates that this mRNA vaccine is a safe and effective strategy to fight COVID-19."

 

https://asgct.org/research/news/august-2021/pfizer-vaccine-approved-by-fda

 

 

Thanks for clarifying that. I misunderstood your earlier claim that an mRNA vaccine had been developed against Ebola. It appears that they did develop one but that it didn't make it to clinical trials:

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/217/3/451/4770157?login=true

 

"In this study, using the technology described in Richner et al [6], we developed 2 novel mRNA vaccines encoding the EBOV GP in a membrane-bound form. [...] We show here that 2 doses of either vaccine were highly efficacious in an animal model and demonstrate all the attributes of a promising candidate to advance to clinical trials."

[Sametboy2019]

23 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The risk of serious COVID vaccine side effects in young children is extremely rare.  The heart inflammation issue that's appeared in reports is more common, though still rare, among male teenagers and young adults as opposed to ages 5-11 children, where it's even less of an issue.

 

https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/childrens-health/11-things-to-know-about-covid-vaccines-and-kids-hearts

 

11 things to know about COVID vaccines and kids’ hearts

 

"This heart inflammation known as myocarditis and pericarditis after COVID vaccination is very rare. Most cases have also been mild and short-lived, with patients recovering after a few days.

...

The risk is low, seen in less than 1 in 20,000 vaccinated children ages 12-17 (and even less frequently in other groups) with symptoms usually appearing within one to four days after the second dose.

 

It’s important to note that while also rare, a COVID-19 infection is more likely to trigger heart inflammation than a vaccine."
 

The risk of any serious issues contracting COVID is also low plus the bonus of strong antibodies

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Thanks for clarifying that. I misunderstood your earlier claim that an mRNA vaccine had been developed against Ebola. It appears that they did develop one but that it didn't make it to clinical trials:

 

As my prior quote noted re the past mRNA Ebola vaccine research:

 

"The first mRNA vaccines using these fatty envelopes were developed against the deadly Ebola virus, but since that virus is only found in a limited number of African countries, it had no commercial development in the U.S.

 

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines

 

The subsequently approved Ervebo vaccine for Ebola is of the different type that I believe is called a viral vector vaccine. The J&J COVID vaccine is also a viral vector vaccine.

 

"The Johnson & Johnson Janssen vaccine, a viral vector vaccine, is among the COVID-19 vaccines authorized for emergency use in the United States."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/viralvector.html

 

 

The main, pertinent point here being (contrary to claims above): mRNA vaccine research in general had a many years long history before the COVID pandemic came along and spurred the development of the Pfizer mRNA vaccine, which then became the first FDA approved mRNA vaccine in the U.S.

 

It wasn't any kind of overnight scientific wonder of new biotechnology suddenly pulled out of a hat.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[rattlesnake]

12 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

As my prior quote noted re the past mRNA Ebola vaccine research:

 

"The first mRNA vaccines using these fatty envelopes were developed against the deadly Ebola virus, but since that virus is only found in a limited number of African countries, it had no commercial development in the U.S.

 

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines

 

The subsequently approved Ervebo vaccine for Ebola is of the different type that I believe is called a viral vector vaccine. The J&J COVID vaccine is also a viral vector vaccine.

 

"The Johnson & Johnson Janssen vaccine, a viral vector vaccine, is among the COVID-19 vaccines authorized for emergency use in the United States."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/viralvector.html

 

 

Right. So mRNA technology has been researched and developed to some extent, but never actually made it to clinical trials prior to the Covid 19 outbreak, correct?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

Right. So mRNA technology has been researched and developed to some extent, but never actually made it to clinical trials prior to the Covid 19 outbreak, correct?

 

I don't know whether any of the prior mRNA vaccine research efforts made it to human clinical trials or not.... I would guess not, but I really don't know.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[brewsterbudgen]

Despite the advice, the take up in the UK for vaccines for young children has been only around 7%.

[rattlesnake]

19 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I don't know whether any of the prior mRNA vaccine research efforts made it to human clinical trials or not.... I would guess not, but I really don't know.

 

 

It appears not.

 

This is a critical fact so thanks for giving me the opportunity to make it clear.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

23 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

It appears not.

 

This is a critical fact so thanks for giving me the opportunity to make it clear.

 

Not sure what great significance you find in that, considering that the Pfizer COVID vaccine underwent human  clinical trials both for adults, and later for children ages 5-11, prior to being approved for use in both segments.

 

Monday, September 20, 2021

 

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Positive Topline Results From Pivotal Trial of COVID-19 Vaccine in Children 5 to 11 Years

 

"Results are the first from a pivotal trial of any COVID-19 vaccine in children under 12 years of age

 

In participants 5 to 11 years of age, the vaccine was safe, well tolerated and showed robust neutralizing antibody responses

...

The Phase 1/2/3 trial initially enrolled up to 4,500 children ages 6 months to 11 years of age in the United States, Finland, Poland, and Spain from more than 90 clinical trial sites."

 

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-positive-topline-results

 

AND

 

January 6, 2022

 

Evaluation of the BNT162b2 Covid-19 Vaccine in Children 5 to 11 Years of Age

 

Conclusions

 

"A Covid-19 vaccination regimen consisting of two 10-μg doses of BNT162b2 administered 21 days apart was found to be safe, immunogenic, and efficacious in children 5 to 11 years of age. (Funded by BioNTech and Pfizer; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04816643. opens in new tab.)

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116298

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[GarryP]

17 hours ago, rumak said:

Your example is one anecdotal report .  Saying that then "everybody wanted it"  could be a bit of a stretch.   Unfortunately,  it seems the villagers did not know the village where my friends wife family lives.   After one of them got the shot and then suddenly became incapacitated ,  nobady in the village wanted anything to do with it.  

Wife's cousin was rendered nearly blind in one eye after vaccination. Doctor at the hospital said that it was not uncommon. None of the family want boosters now. I've had two Pfizer shots and also had Omicron so really don't see much point in a booster now. If I had a young child I would certainly not be pushing him/her to have the vaccine either. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Summary of data publicly reported by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
Date: 5/11/22

"The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends COVID-19 vaccination for all children and adolescents 5 years of age and older who do not have contraindications using a vaccine authorized for use for their age.

...

Children Ages 5-11 Years:

As of May 11, 2022, the CDC recorded:

 

9.9 million US children ages 5-11 have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine

• Representing 35% of 5-11 year-olds

8.1 million US children ages 5-11 completed the 2-dose vaccination series

• Representing 28% of 5-11 year-olds"

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-vaccination-trends/

 

[rattlesnake]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Not sure what great significance you find in that, considering that the Pfizer COVID vaccine underwent human  clinical trials both for adults, and later for children ages 5-11, prior to being approved for use in both segments.

 

Monday, September 20, 2021

 

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Positive Topline Results From Pivotal Trial of COVID-19 Vaccine in Children 5 to 11 Years

 

"Results are the first from a pivotal trial of any COVID-19 vaccine in children under 12 years of age

 

In participants 5 to 11 years of age, the vaccine was safe, well tolerated and showed robust neutralizing antibody responses

...

The Phase 1/2/3 trial initially enrolled up to 4,500 children ages 6 months to 11 years of age in the United States, Finland, Poland, and Spain from more than 90 clinical trial sites."

 

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-positive-topline-results

 

AND

 

January 6, 2022

 

Evaluation of the BNT162b2 Covid-19 Vaccine in Children 5 to 11 Years of Age

 

Conclusions

 

"A Covid-19 vaccination regimen consisting of two 10-μg doses of BNT162b2 administered 21 days apart was found to be safe, immunogenic, and efficacious in children 5 to 11 years of age. (Funded by BioNTech and Pfizer; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04816643. opens in new tab.)

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116298

 

I was initially replying to a user who claimed the Covid mRNA shots were not novel and that there was no significant difference between them and previously marketed vaccines. This is an erroneous statement and I have made that clear.

 

I find it very interesting that each time I demonstrate a falsehood in claims made by proponents of the Covid shots, I end up being told "So what?", "Who cares?" or something similar. Clearly the concept of factual accuracy is flexible according to whether it suits one's stance or not.

[rattlesnake]

13 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Wife's cousin was rendered nearly blind in one eye after vaccination. Doctor at the hospital said that it was not uncommon. None of the family want boosters now. I've had two Pfizer shots and also had Omicron so really don't see much point in a booster now. If I had a young child I would certainly not be pushing him/her to have the vaccine either. 

Thanks for speaking up about that. I am very sorry for your wife's cousin and hope her ailment will be recognised and that she will be rightfully compensated. I also know people suffering from very concerning health issues following the shot, some are considering legal action.

 

But in the meantime no, of course we should not be inoculating our children.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

This is the latest from the TH MoPH, posted earlier today, on the progress in vaccinating youngsters ages 5-11 -- 56% have received one dose, and 22.4% have received two doses thus far in their relatively new vaccine rollout for youngsters.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/informationcovid19/photos/a.106455480972785/563767991908196/?type=3

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

26 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Wife's cousin was rendered nearly blind in one eye after vaccination. Doctor at the hospital said that it was not uncommon.

The ability to judge why things happen medically requires a comprehensive investigation... and initial claims of such supposed vaccine side effects have often proven to be wrong.  Something happening "after" a vaccination doesn't necessarily mean the vaccination was in fact the cause.

 

Example just from the past week:

Doctors Say Phuket Boy Blinded by Staph Infection

"BANGKOK (NNT) - A team of Phuket province physicians has determined that a 12-year-old boy who went blind after receiving a second dose of COVID-19 vaccine lost his sight due to a bacterial infection.

 

The family of Nonthapat Sae Ong claimed that their child became blind after receiving the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine in November of last year.

...

Doctors at Vachira Phuket Hospital determined that Nonthapat had acute sinusitis caused by an infection of the staphylococcus aureus bacteria, which then spread to his optic nerve and sphenoid sinus, resulting in his blindness.

 

https://nbtworld.prd.go.th/en/news/detail/TCATG220510092232634

 

[onthedarkside]

A post with unverified claims of COVID vaccine side effects has been removed.

 

[rumak]

43 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Wife's cousin was rendered nearly blind in one eye after vaccination. Doctor at the hospital said that it was not uncommon. None of the family want boosters now. I've had two Pfizer shots and also had Omicron so really don't see much point in a booster now. If I had a young child I would certainly not be pushing him/her to have the vaccine either. 

my daughter and husband...... and 2 year old son all got covid.       daughter and husband worse symptoms than their son ( who had a very mild cold ) .        

parents were double vaxxed .       the 2 year old    NOPE

[atpeace]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:13 AM, StevieAus said:

That’s very interesting as I understand Pfizer at a third of the dose is being given to children here.

We are pro vaccine and our daughter soon to be six has had every vaccine since born

We have been waiting for more information although some older children we know have had Pfizer with no side effects 

My wife and I have had three Covid vaccines.

A week ago our daughter spent three days in hospital with Covid although ok now, my wife also contracted with flu like symptoms 

Hopefully my daughter may now have some natural immunity.

Why did she stay at the hospital for three days?  

[GarryP]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The ability to judge why things happen medically requires a comprehensive investigation... and initial claims of such supposed vaccine side effects have often proven to be wrong.  Something happening "after" a vaccination doesn't necessarily mean the vaccination was in fact the cause.

 

Example just from the past week:

Doctors Say Phuket Boy Blinded by Staph Infection

"BANGKOK (NNT) - A team of Phuket province physicians has determined that a 12-year-old boy who went blind after receiving a second dose of COVID-19 vaccine lost his sight due to a bacterial infection.

 

The family of Nonthapat Sae Ong claimed that their child became blind after receiving the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine in November of last year.

...

Doctors at Vachira Phuket Hospital determined that Nonthapat had acute sinusitis caused by an infection of the staphylococcus aureus bacteria, which then spread to his optic nerve and sphenoid sinus, resulting in his blindness.

 

https://nbtworld.prd.go.th/en/news/detail/TCATG220510092232634

 

So we should just ignore all the side-effects because they were all purely coincidental? Side-effects on the eyes are not that uncommon and have also been encountered with hepatitis vaccines. Just because one person's blindness was, perhaps, caused by an exisiting infection, does not negate the side effects suffered by others as a result of the vaccines (side-effects that are even officially recognized). Or were they all coincidental and the health authorities officially recognized them by mistake?.

 

My niece also started suffering from a severe thyroid disorder within 7 days of her first shot. She's still on medication for that and has been told that she will probably be on medication for the rest of her life. She never previously had a thyroid problem and was very healthy. Nor are any relatives suffering from thyroid problems so it is unlikely to be of hereditary origin. However, the doctor did not associate the condition with the vaccination (so I didn't mention it before) and in fact she had her second shot (I wouldn't have). Yes, it is possible that it is unrelated to the vaccine, but this too does seem a bit coincidental too. 

 

Anyway, each to their own. You want the shots, go for it. But I won't be rushing to have any booster unless absolutely necessary for travel or to keep my job. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by GarryP

[atpeace]

13 minutes ago, GarryP said:

So we should just ignore all the side-effects because they were all purely coincidental? Side-effects on the eyes are not that uncommon and have also been encountered with hepatitis vaccines. Just because one person's blindness was, perhaps, caused by an exisiting infection, does not negate the side effects suffered by others as a result of the vaccines (side-effects that are even officially recognized). Or were they all coincidental and the health authorities officially recognized them by mistake?.

 

My niece also started suffering from a severe thyroid disorder within 7 days of her first shot. She's still on medication for that and has been told that she will probably be on medication for the rest of her life. She never previously had a thyroid problem and was very healthy. Nor are any relatives suffering from thyroid problems so it is unlikely to be of hereditary origin. However, the doctor did not associate the condition with the vaccination (so I didn't mention it before) and in fact she had her second shot. Yes, it is possible that it is unrelated to the vaccine, but this too does seem a bit too coincidental. 

 

Anyway, each to their own. You want the shots, go for it. But I won't be rushing to have any booster unless absolutely necessary for travel or to keep my job. 

It seems normal to me.  People get sick regardless of Covid vaccination and not because of the vaccination in most cases.

 

Agree - everybody should be able to make their own choices at this point in regards to Covid vaccination.  I fear Thailand is at least a year away from doing this without restrictions.  Odd how a country that has suffered so mildly compared to other countries is paranoid.  I think it is the lack of information and research that leaves them in the dark.  Wearing a mask while on a motorbike - seriously?  Unlike western developed countries, Thais interact in non-enclosed areas where ventilation disperses viral loads.  If inside,  wear a mask but even then it seems pointless to me.  Hospitals can handle the increased load and why put off the inevitable.

Edited May 17, 2022 by atpeace

[kwonitoy]

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

But in the meantime no, of course we should not be inoculating our children.

You have the choice, rightly or wrongly, to make over vaccinating your children.

Do not assume that right over others with different choice's

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FDA authorizes first COVID booster for children ages 5 to 11

 

"The [U.S.] Food and Drug Administration Tuesday authorized the first COVID-19 vaccine booster for children ages 5 to 11.

 

The authorization makes all children in that age group who received their second shot at least five months ago eligible to receive a third shot of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

...

"While it has largely been the case that COVID-19 tends to be less severe in children than adults, the omicron wave has seen more kids getting sick with the disease and being hospitalized, and children may also experience longer term effects, even following initially mild disease," said FDA Commissioner Robert M. Califf in a statement.

 

(more)

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/17/1099442330/fda-authorizes-first-covid-booster-for-children-ages-5-to-11

 

AND

 

"The FDA authorized the primary two-dose series of the vaccine for children ages 5 to 11 last fall. Each dose is 10 micrograms, as is the booster, which is one-third the dose for adults.”

...

The CDC has said only 28 percent of children 5 to 11 have been fully vaccinated."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/05/16/fda-pfizer-booster-kids/

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[StevieAus]

13 hours ago, atpeace said:

Why did she stay at the hospital for three days?  

High temperature and vomiting.

[atpeace]

1 hour ago, StevieAus said:

High temperature and vomiting.

That had to be frightening.  Everyone I know under 20 has been lucky and had minor to no issues in regards to Covid.  Have my GF's 84 yo Mom staying with us because everybody in her home has Covid.  

 

Hope your daughter is back in good health.

[StevieAus]

23 hours ago, atpeace said:

That had to be frightening.  Everyone I know under 20 has been lucky and had minor to no issues in regards to Covid.  Have my GF's 84 yo Mom staying with us because everybody in her home has Covid.  

 

Hope your daughter is back in good health.

She is fine thanks we live in the North and took her to Chiang Mai Ram where she was born and has treatment if ever required.

She has a great Pediatrician and soon bounced back, her mother who has had three shots picked it up and was quite sick for a few days but I escaped.

[placeholder]

On 5/17/2022 at 8:20 PM, GarryP said:

So we should just ignore all the side-effects because they were all purely coincidental? Side-effects on the eyes are not that uncommon and have also been encountered with hepatitis vaccines. Just because one person's blindness was, perhaps, caused by an exisiting infection, does not negate the side effects suffered by others as a result of the vaccines (side-effects that are even officially recognized). Or were they all coincidental and the health authorities officially recognized them by mistake?.

 

My niece also started suffering from a severe thyroid disorder within 7 days of her first shot. She's still on medication for that and has been told that she will probably be on medication for the rest of her life. She never previously had a thyroid problem and was very healthy. Nor are any relatives suffering from thyroid problems so it is unlikely to be of hereditary origin. However, the doctor did not associate the condition with the vaccination (so I didn't mention it before) and in fact she had her second shot (I wouldn't have). Yes, it is possible that it is unrelated to the vaccine, but this too does seem a bit coincidental too. 

 

Anyway, each to their own. You want the shots, go for it. But I won't be rushing to have any booster unless absolutely necessary for travel or to keep my job. 

Who needs statistically valid scientifically conducted follow-up studies when we lucky folks here at thaivisa.com can rely on reports from anonymous posters?