Harris calls for 'assault weapons ban' in wake of mass shootings; Biden arrives in Uvalde

[Bkk Brian]

53 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You can claim that I am wrong, but I think I am right when I say that the 67%of individuals that you've claimed  want guns for protection are generally the  people with five or less guns, while the 33% that have guns for some other reason, hunting, shooting and collecting etc. typically have five or more guns, and will often have very many more than five, 

 

Now I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I would bet that at least 95% of all firearm homicides  are committed using only one firearm, and that the likelihood of that one firearm being an assault-rife is less than 5%. 

You can think all you want, the stats quoted and in the link do not match your thinking. Particularly when they do not contain the data required to make your claim.

 

[BangkokReady]

1 minute ago, Slip said:

Your point would be valid if it weren't for all the innocent kids being slaughtered in American schools.

How so?

[Slip]

7 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

How so?

Really?  Love of children vs gun worship.  One is a healthy, natural behaviour.  The other is perverse and damaging to the very fabric of the country in question.

[BangkokReady]

Quote

Love of children vs gun worship.

I wonder if you realise that people reacting to traumatic events are prone to irrational thought?  Love of children may be natural and healthy, but the reactions that people can have as a result of children being harmed can be anything but.

 

Also, for the sake of argument, gun worship, or worship of any weapon is perfectly natural.  We wouldn't have developed the ability to use tools or weapons if it was not natural.  We are "natural", after all.

[Slip]

26 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

I wonder if you realise that people reacting to traumatic events are prone to irrational thought?  Love of children may be natural and healthy, but the reactions that people can have as a result of children being harmed can be anything but.

 

Also, for the sake of argument, gun worship, or worship of any weapon is perfectly natural.  We wouldn't have developed the ability to use tools or weapons if it was not natural.  We are "natural", after all.

I wonder why you think that is relevant?  Most people in the U.S. actively want more gun control than at present simply because most of them are sick of seeing their children slaughtered.

 

Also for the sake of argument, you are talking nonsense.  The idea that making and using tools is the same as worshiping them is as ridiculous as everything else you have said in your post.

 

[BangkokReady]

 

20 minutes ago, Slip said:

I wonder why you think that is relevant?  Most people in the U.S. actively want more gun control than at present simply because most of them are sick of seeing their children slaughtered.

How does that even come into it?

 

20 minutes ago, Slip said:

Also for the sake of argument, you are talking nonsense.  The idea that making and using tools is the same as worshiping them is as ridiculous as everything else you have said in your post.

Nah, it's perfectly natural for people to like guns.  If you can't understand that, I doubt there's much more we can discuss.

[onthedarkside]

A number of off-topic, trolling and unsourced claims posts have been edited or removed along with ensuing replies.

 

[coolcarer]

51 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Love the fact that the anti-gun nuts seem just as unhinged as the pro-gun nuts.

 

It's never really about what people say it's about.

? Strange post, mocking both sides of the debate.

12 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Nah, it's perfectly natural for people to like guns.  If you can't understand that, I doubt there's much more we can discuss.

Ok now I get it. ???? looks to me like you did a little self mocking,

by the way, I don’t like guns although I do remember playing with toy guns as a child but then I grew up and saw what they actually do in real life.

[BangkokReady]

5 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

? Strange post, mocking both sides of the debate.

Why?  What's wrong with that?

 

5 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Ok now I get it. ???? looks to me like you did a little self mocking

Nope.  Guns are interesting, but I'm not American and don't really care much about them.  They look cool in films and video games, but those things aren't real life.  If I lived in an area where I thought having one might improve my life and it was legal, I would consider it.

 

5 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

by the way, I don’t like guns although I do remember playing with toy guns as a child but then I grew up and saw what they actually do in real life.

Oh.  I guess guns must be inherently evil then.  That's that sorted.  I'll sleep soundly tonight.

[coolcarer]

15 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

 

 

Oh.  I guess guns must be inherently evil then.  That's that sorted.  I'll sleep soundly tonight.

Cool, goodnight

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

Also, for the sake of argument, gun worship, or worship of any weapon is perfectly natural.  We wouldn't have developed the ability to use tools or weapons if it was not natural.  We are "natural", after all.

Thats dangerously close to arguing ‘mass murder of school children is natural behaviour’... which of course I don’t believe you meant...

 

As humanity evolves... should our animal instincts get the better of us or is our evolution such that we can rise above base instinct and urges?

 

The argument you seem to present is that a gun is a ‘tool’ and its perfectly natural to want to use tools and weapons ???...  that may have been so of our ancient hunter-gatherer ancestors for purely practical reasons, perhaps even so up until 100 years or so ago.

 

Have we not evolved to be better in the past 100 years ???

 

Perhaps parts of humanity haven’t evolve, they (yes, they not we) haven’t evolved if they think gun ownership remains an important facet of a functioning and safe society.

 

It certainly seems there are many in the US (not all of course) who live within a brainwashed bubble...  

 

It lends me to muse if those who support gun ownership the same as those who refuse to wear a mask and refuse vaccines....  I wonder if there is a correlation because the anti-establishment traits of such personalities seem to surface (perhaps that is just my confirmation bias).... but it would make an interesting study. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Absolutely agree....  I’ve fired plenty of guns... and I have really enjoyed doing so.

But I don’t own a gun, I don’t want one and I don’t feel the need to have one. 

I don’t think any civilian should own or carry a gun. 

 

Why would I want to carry a gun??? I can’t think of any reason other than it makes me feel more powerful and thats not a bad feeling, I just don’t feel the need to feel more powerful, thats all. 

 

Why would I want a gun in my house??? I can’t think of any reason, if I did, I’m living in the wrong area, but that would be because ‘others have guns’ and therein exists the issue with that argument.

 

Firing a gun is pretty cool... Driving a fast car is pretty cool... But one is designed specifically for killing the other isn’t...   there is no social responsible reason for owning or wanting to own a gun, there is only the simple reason... ‘cos I want to....  and those ‘who want to own guns’ really haven’t stood back and looked at the far greater issues of gun ownership on society.

 

 

 

I agree and disagree.

 

I too have owned guns, two rifles and a shot gun, at the time I had shooting rights on wooded land,  my guns were tools which I used to hunt food.

 

This is true for very many Americans, their gun is a tool, in some regions it is also a necessary means of protection against dangerous animals.

For these people there deep cultural and practical reasons to own and use guns.

 

However, this is not the case for very many other Americans.

 

On the insistence of my father I learned to shoot at a military cadet range, were gun safety was literally drilled into those attending, as a young teenager the discipline and sense of responsibility ’drilled’ was part of the enjoyment. 
 

Later I occasionally attended ‘civilian’ shooting clubs, this was an entirely different mix of experiences. Some were excellent, well managed and sociable, some were filled with very strange people ‘drilling’ on the politics of fear.

 

I gave up my guns when my kids were born, yes my guns were always under lock and key, the guns the bolts and the ammo all under separate locks, but guns around young children, no thank you.

 

As for a gun for self defense/home defense, I’ll go back to what I was drilled on.

 

If you feel you need a weapon (any weapon) to be safe in a place, don’t go there. It’s not like in the movies, you probably won’t get to your weapon in time and it will very likely cause you to stay put when you should be running.

 

Society needs to have a measured conversation on gun control, that can’t happen with extremists on both sides getting all the airtime. It certainly cannot happen while the gun lobby is permitted to buy the allegiance of politicians who should be acting for all citizens, not just the gun lobby.

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Five guns is not many at all for hunter, and it's not a lot for anyone that serious about target shooting. 

 

Long gun and pistol each in small and large caliber plus a shotgun is five.

 

You go hunting with a pistol? Now I have heard everything.

Please explain to me how a gun for "protection" is called an assault rifle, something of a contradiction.

The statistics say people who keep guns in their homes are far more likely to commit suicide, get shot, or be sued by an unarmed burglar or their families.

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

I gave up my guns when my kids were born, yes my guns were always under lock and key, the guns the bolts and the ammo all under separate locks, but guns around young children, no thank you.

 

 

Agree completely, my guns were in a gun safe, the rifle bolts and ammunition were stored separately in the house. Without all three, useless for a burglar to steal them. They were not assembled until I was out on a station 100 km from the nearest town.

I never owned a handgun, like assault rifles their sole purpose is killing people.

Some posters on this thread claiming to be hunters, they'd have professional shooters in Australia rolling on the floor laughing.

[digger70]

19 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Oh dear, that first sentence screams of desperation.

 

Denying the truth by saying ''guns don't kill people'', as the nra does, is an excuse.

 

Well deflection.

 

Guns kill people.

 

 

Only People Kill People.  

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Only People Kill People.  

Whats the number one tool people use to kill other people?

[digger70]

16 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Its certainly concerning that the argument used by digger70 is used to justify gun ownership... 

 

Those who think this is a solid argument may own guns...  This should concern us all that those who own guns justify their ownership with the most stupid of arguments.

 

Perhaps that is misleading because I don’t believe there is a correlation between ‘gun ownership and stupidity’.... But, there is definitely a correlation between ’arguments justifying gun ownership and stupidity’ !!!! 

 

 

It's Not an Argument about ownership of guns .

It's about Reality. the guns by themselves Don't Kill people It's the Idiots that use them to Kill that's the problem.

Any Idiot can Kill someone with whatever they can hold in their hands or drive or operate or Fly. 

Wake up you people just get real .

[Bluespunk]

23 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Only People Kill People.  

Well that's not quite true, but to point out how there are other ways that lead to people being killed I would be going off topic.

 

So to get back on topic...

 

Guns kill people and therefore, as other have outlined on this thread, much more stringent legislation is required.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, digger70 said:

16 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Its certainly concerning that the argument used by digger70 is used to justify gun ownership... 

 

Those who think this is a solid argument may own guns...  This should concern us all that those who own guns justify their ownership with the most stupid of arguments.

 

Perhaps that is misleading because I don’t believe there is a correlation between ‘gun ownership and stupidity’.... But, there is definitely a correlation between ’arguments justifying gun ownership and stupidity’ !!!! 

 

 

Expand  

It's Not an Argument about ownership of guns .

It's about Reality. the guns by themselves Don't Kill people It's the Idiots that use them to Kill that's the problem.

Any Idiot can Kill someone with whatever they can hold in their hands or drive or operate or Fly. 

Wake up you people just get real .

Other potentially lethal items such as cars, planes, kitchen knifes are an every day necessity for most...

 

When was the last time someone committed mass murder in a school with Golf Clubs, a Car ???

Now, a kitchen knife is something else - as it is used a weapon and has been used to kill in schools etc... but the knife is also a practical necessity in the home whereas a Gun simply isn’t. 

 

 

Choosing to compare items used for every day life with weapons designed solely for a singular purpose (killing) is not a clever justification for public gun ownership.

 

 

As you wrote, 'any idiot can kill someone what with whatever they can hold in their hands, drive or operate'....  As the news shows they are doing so in the US with Guns..... So far 27 times in Schools this year...  and 213 mass shootings... 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

32 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Only People Kill People.  

When was the last person a psychopathic nut case walked into a shopping mall or a school and killed 20 people with their bare hands ?????

 

There will always be people who are seriously mentally unhinged....   the ease of gun ownership in the US provides those who are unhinged the means to commit acts of mass murder.... 

 

 

 

[digger70]

19 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Whats the number one tool people use to kill other people?

Handgun, It's the Choice of the Madmen.

Take away the handgun and they will use an other tool .That's Not the argument here ,

It's the People who using the tools who are responsible  for their actions . 

The weapons by themselves don't kill it's the Idiots that use them that's the problem . People Kill  with whatever they can hold in their hands or drive or fly.

[richard_smith237]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I agree and disagree.

 

I too have owned guns, two rifles and a shot gun, at the time I had shooting rights on wooded land,  my guns were tools which I used to hunt food.

I think rifle ownership (single shot) for those who have hunting licences etc is fine. 

I’m quite sure you didn’t hunt food with a Hand Gun or an Assault Rifle.

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This is true for very many Americans, their gun is a tool, in some regions it is also a necessary means of protection against dangerous animals.

For these people there deep cultural and practical reasons to own and use guns.

Sufficient reason to own a licence for a rifle...   But a hand gun or an automatic assault rifle ?

 

I still see no need whatsoever for the public to own hand guns or automatic assault weapons. 

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

However, this is not the case for very many other Americans.

 

On the insistence of my father I learned to shoot at a military cadet range, were gun safety was literally drilled into those attending, as a young teenager the discipline and sense of responsibility ’drilled’ was part of the enjoyment. 
 

Later I occasionally attended ‘civilian’ shooting clubs, this was an entirely different mix of experiences. Some were excellent, well managed and sociable, some were filled with very strange people ‘drilling’ on the politics of fear.

To be honest... I wouldn’t want my child to be around people who think guns are a good thing, there is a strange somewhat 'anarchistic I’ll fight for my rights at the tiniest sleight’ mentality in that sub-set of society.... It mirrors the mentality of the antivaxxers and anti-maskers we’ve seen in the last few years....  

 

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

I gave up my guns when my kids were born, yes my guns were always under lock and key, the guns the bolts and the ammo all under separate locks, but guns around young children, no thank you.

Agreed... Smart move.. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As for a gun for self defense/home defense, I’ll go back to what I was drilled on.

Is a Gun for self defence really useful ? locked away in a gun cabinet, separate ammo ?

Will those ‘invading your house’ give warning and sufficient time to open the gun safe and load ammo ?

And really, home invasion ???   When is that ever likely to happen to the probability which justifies gun ownership vs gun deaths (even stats of ppl killed by their own guns). 

 

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you feel you need a weapon (any weapon) to be safe in a place, don’t go there. It’s not like in the movies, you probably won’t get to your weapon in time and it will very likely cause you to stay put when you should be running.

Totally agree, covered above. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

Society needs to have a measured conversation on gun control, that can’t happen with extremists on both sides getting all the airtime. It certainly cannot happen while the gun lobby is permitted to buy the allegiance of politicians who should be acting for all citizens, not just the gun lobby.

Absolutely agree. 

[digger70]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Other potentially lethal items such as cars, planes, kitchen knifes are an every day necessity for most...

 

When was the last time someone committed mass murder in a school with Golf Clubs, a Car ???

Now, a kitchen knife is something else - as it is used a weapon and has been used to kill in schools etc... but the knife is also a practical necessity in the home whereas a Gun simply isn’t. 

 

 

Choosing to compare items used for every day life with weapons designed solely for a singular purpose (killing) is not a clever justification for public gun ownership.

 

 

As you wrote, 'any idiot can kill someone what with whatever they can hold in their hands, drive or operate'....  As the news shows they are doing so in the US with Guns..... So far 27 times in Schools this year...  and 213 mass shootings... 

 

 

Yes , and Who does the killing ? the Idiots People that use that tool.

This is not an argument just reality .You ever seen a weapon kill someone? No, right  it's the person that use  a weapon  that does the killing. this is about killing right? that's what people Do.

[digger70]

16 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

When was the last person a psychopathic nut case walked into a shopping mall or a school and killed 20 people with their bare hands ?????

 

There will always be people who are seriously mentally unhinged....   the ease of gun ownership in the US provides those who are unhinged the means to commit acts of mass murder.... 

 

 

 

People will use with whatever they can find to kill so it doesn't matter what you say People Kill .

 

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Handgun, It's the Choice of the Madmen.

Take away the handgun and they will use an other tool .That's Not the argument here ,

It's the People who using the tools who are responsible  for their actions . 

The weapons by themselves don't kill it's the Idiots that use them that's the problem . People Kill  with whatever they can hold in their hands or drive or fly.

And give these idiots access to automatic assault weapons and...... 

 

Conversely, if they had no access to automatic assault weapons they would (or may) cause damage and even kill, but not to the same extent.

 

Easily accessible and concealable handguns and assault weapons are the primary issue here because we can’t just remove anyone from society who we think ‘could end up’ committing a mass murder, yet removing their tools which are unnecessary for every day life is the common sense and obviously solution. 

 

Well, its a common sense an obvious solution to anyone with a rational perspective. 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, digger70 said:

People will use with whatever they can find to kill so it doesn't matter what you say People Kill .

 

OF course, it doesn’t matter what I say (or write)... But it matters what the US authorities permit, and at the moment it permits the easy access to handguns and assault weapons. 

 

Give a crazed person a knife, a car, a single shot rifle or shot-gun, or an automatic assault weapon....   which do you think they’ll do more harm with ???

 

This is the primary issue - ease of access that nutcases have to automatic weapons.... when there is no need for any member of public to own an automatic weapon... no need whatsoever. 

[digger70]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

OF course, it doesn’t matter what I say (or write)... But it matters what the US authorities permit, and at the moment it permits the easy access to handguns and assault weapons. 

 

Give a crazed person a knife, a car, a single shot rifle or shot-gun, or an automatic assault weapon....   which do you think they’ll do more harm with ???

 

This is the primary issue - ease of access that nutcases have to automatic weapons.... when there is no need for any member of public to own an automatic weapon... no need whatsoever. 

That's Not the argument here ,People can use whatever tool to kill,

It's the People who kill not the tool.

Everyone is saying the gun kills ,It doesn't .

I have Never seen a gun that kills a person. 

It's always the people using the tool that does the killing .

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, digger70 said:

It's Not an Argument about ownership of guns .

It's about Reality. the guns by themselves Don't Kill people It's the Idiots that use them to Kill that's the problem.

Any Idiot can Kill someone with whatever they can hold in their hands or drive or operate or Fly. 

Wake up you people just get real .

So that’s you signed up for denying idiots guns is it?

[Bkk Brian]

36 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Handgun, It's the Choice of the Madmen.

Take away the handgun and they will use an other tool .That's Not the argument here ,

It's the People who using the tools who are responsible  for their actions . 

The weapons by themselves don't kill it's the Idiots that use them that's the problem . People Kill  with whatever they can hold in their hands or drive or fly.

Yes it is the argument here, it is about the killing of innocent people and the call for more gun restrictions in the wake of the latest incident, you are the one getting way off topic.

 

I just can't see the Las Vegas killer standing from his vantage point in the hotel room with a pea shooter for 2 hours killing 60 people and injuring another 400 without the police storming in before he had manged to tickle someone.

 

Or the killer in the latest incident, would the police really have been so scared to approach him if he was carrying a knife, they said they did not want to get shot because he had a gun. I'm pretty sure he would not have managed to kill anywhere near 19 children and 2 staff unless it was his weapon of choice, a gun. Thats exactly why he waited for his 18th birthday, to buy one legally.

[richard_smith237]

11 minutes ago, digger70 said:

That's Not the argument here ,People can use whatever tool to kill,

It's the People who kill not the tool.

Everyone is saying the gun kills ,It doesn't .

I have Never seen a gun that kills a person. 

It's always the people using the tool that does the killing .

The argument... or rather the thread is... ‘Harris calls for ‘assault weapons ban’... 

 

You have taken a tangent that ‘people kill people’ which is of course true, but you are ignoring the primary issue that they do so more easily with ready access to automatic assault weapons than they would / could if they did not have access to those automatic weapons.

 

Ergo, the issue is access to automatic weapons.

 

 

The fact that people have ready access to automatic weapons and use them to kill people cannot be ignored... when people do not have ready access to automatic weapons far fewer people die in mass shootings....  

 

There will still be acts of road aggression with people killing people, there will still be stabbings, there will still be cases of Maxwell smashing Joan’s head in with a hammer...  

 

BUT, if the public do not have access to Automatic weapons we don’t have nut cases going into schools and killing loads of kids, we don’t have people going into shopping malls and killing random shoppers....  We will still have nut cases, but they won’t have the tools to commit mass murder so easily.