Children refused permission to leave Thailand on a UK passport

[soi3eddie]

1 hour ago, statman78 said:

Thanks for the information!  Am I correct to assume that the airline tickets for his wife and son should be booked using the US passport numbers?

Passport numbers are not normally required (certainly not with Thai Airways) to book a ticket. They are needed for online check-in. I would say use the passport number issued by the country they are entering. We never encountered any issue with this over the years despite my wife's (now ex) Thai passport being in her maiden name and our airline tickets always in her married name that matched her British passport.

   

Edited July 1, 2022 by soi3eddie

[Gallstone]

28 minutes ago, 86Tiger said:

 

 

I kinda think this is a bit of a blessing.

 

Had they managed to get out of the Kingdom they would have required a visa to return on a UK passport.

They were going to reside in the UK as they are British.

[matchar]

They can definitely leave Thailand on a foreign passport, you just need to show the Thai birth certificate at Thai immigration.

 

Like I said before, I left with my son in 2019 and he has never even had a Thai passport.

 

All children are exempt from overstay fines. Thai citizens can also not be deported or fined when they reach adulthood as that would be against the constitution.

[Gallstone]

10 minutes ago, matchar said:

They can definitely leave Thailand on a foreign passport, you just need to show the Thai birth certificate at Thai immigration.

 

Like I said before, I left with my son in 2019 and he has never even had a Thai passport.

 

All children are exempt from overstay fines. Thai citizens can also not be deported or fined when they reach adulthood as that would be against the constitution.

I mean the children are British Citizens. They were denied a return to the country where they have a right to stay.

[digbeth]

13 minutes ago, Gallstone said:

I mean the children are British Citizens. They were denied a return to the country where they have a right to stay.

no, they were not denied return to their country, they were denied travel on a document that might not be valid for travel or a lack of supporting evidence that their travel document is valid.

 

If a UK person were to turn up trying to exit Thailand on an empty brand new passport without entry stamps or visas and having no records of them ever entering the Kingdom on immigration's system, I'm sure they'd be denied boarding too

[sungod]

6 hours ago, bogozy said:

I travelled a lot of. All airlines need to see the passangers passports and all necessary documents, what are required by the countries of departure, and destinations. If they get boarding somebody, without proper papers, the destination country has the right, to force the airline, carry back the passanger into the departure country. So the airlines are working as the frontline immigration offices, indeed. They have the responsibilities.

 

So front line in fact, the last time I left Heathrow with the family we didn't even go through a passport control. It was all done at check in.

[Gallstone]

3 minutes ago, digbeth said:

no, they were not denied return to their country, they were denied travel on a document that might not be valid for travel or a lack of supporting evidence that their travel document is valid.

 

If a UK person were to turn up trying to exit Thailand on an empty brand new passport without entry stamps or visas and having no records of them ever entering the Kingdom on immigration's system, I'm sure they'd be denied boarding too

Yes they were. They are British Citizens.

[Mac Mickmanus]

33 minutes ago, matchar said:

They can definitely leave Thailand on a foreign passport, you just need to show the Thai birth certificate at Thai immigration.

 

Like I said before, I left with my son in 2019 and he has never even had a Thai passport.

 

All children are exempt from overstay fines. Thai citizens can also not be deported or fined when they reach adulthood as that would be against the constitution.

Did you son have an entry stamp in his passport?

[Maestro]

30 minutes ago, digbeth said:

...If a UK person were to turn up trying to exit Thailand on an empty brand new passport without entry stamps or visas and having no records of them ever entering the Kingdom on immigration's system, I'm sure they'd be denied boarding too

The UK person you describe would have been born in Thailand and have a birth certificate issued in Thailand. If this birth certificate shows that this person has UK nationality and the certificate is shown together with the passport, this person is checked in for the flight, stamped out by immigration on the UK passport and allowed to board without a problem.

 

There have apparently been cases where a Thai-born child was allowed to leave on its foreign passport even with its birth certificate showing Thai nationality, for example:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1264491-children-refused-permission-to-leave-thailand-on-a-uk-passport/?do=findComment&comment=17455733

 

[matchar]

46 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Did you son have an entry stamp in his passport?

No he did not.

[patong1234]

hi, as no thai visa in uk passport, uk passport is not in the immigration data , she is thai as the child,  immigration see it as one passport/ one person, if double citizenship, you are like 2 different  persons,   need thai passport with uk visa to go out of thailand, for wife and child,  uk embassy should give it on the day without appointment and free as double citizenship 

 

got same case but kid got 3 passports...   so i got shengen visa in thai passport.....   and a thai should always come in thailand as a thai citizen and not uk citizen ( u would be restricted to do visa extension if on uk passport and can be fine 20k and blacklisted if overstay on the uk passport

 

good info below

hope this help

 

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/traveling-as-a-dual-citizen/

 

 

\

 

[Maestro]

On 6/30/2022 at 3:00 PM, BritTim said:

If it was in the 1980s, your daughter would not yet have had Thai nationality. At that time, children only received Thai nationality through a Thai father.

Are you sure about that?

 

See the version of the Nationality Act in force prior to the amendment of Section 7 in 1992 (thai text):

https://www.thaikonfrankfurt.de/files/images/downloads/nationality4.pdf

 

Google translation:

Quote

 

Section 7. The following persons would acquire Thai nationality by birth

...

(3) a person born in the Kingdom of Thailand

 

 

[khunPer]

6 hours ago, Doctor Tom said:

That is not my experience with our daughter .  Mum did it all, I was not present. 

Might be different between passport offices then - if they haven't claimed a power of attorney - I've just renewed my daughters passport two weeks ago - she is 16 now - and both parent's had to be present and sign...????

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, digbeth said:

no, they were not denied return to their country, they were denied travel on a document that might not be valid for travel or a lack of supporting evidence that their travel document is valid.

I sincerely hope that no airline is going to decide that my UK passport might not be valid for travel. What supporting evidence would you say I should have available in case the airline questions the validity of my passport?

[soi3eddie]

13 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I sincerely hope that no airline is going to decide that my UK passport might not be valid for travel. What supporting evidence would you say I should have available in case the airline questions the validity of my passport?

Nothing would trump a valid and genuine passport with visa if neccessary. An airline is not obliged to allow boarding if they perceive any problems or iregularities. They might well be wrong but if the flight goes without you then it's going to be an uphill struggle.

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by soi3eddie

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am sure. In spite of what previous versions of the Thai nationality act stated, Thailand did not then (and still does not) recognise Thai nationality on the basis of jus soli. On the birth of my own daughter in 1989, I engaged a well connected lawyer to appeal the failure to recognise my daughter as Thai on the Thai birth certificate. This was to no avail. My daughter did later acquire Thai citizenship through jus sanguinis, based on her Thai mother, following the later change in the law.

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, soi3eddie said:

Nothing would trump a valid and genuine passport with visa if neccessary. An airline is not obliged to allow boarding if they perceive any problems or iregularities. They might well be wrong but if the flight goes without you then it's going to be an uphill struggle.

This argument is going around in circles. Three UK citizens were denied boarding for a flight to the UK (where, with UK passports, they had no need for visas to enter). You stated that the airline was within their right to do so because the passports might be fake. I do not see how there is any greater risk that their passports would be fake than mine. The UK authorities are very careful when it comes to issuing of initial UK passports. For it to be issued in Thailand, this will have included a visit with the children to the UK embassy for an interview.

[Mac Mickmanus]

25 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I sincerely hope that no airline is going to decide that my UK passport might not be valid for travel. What supporting evidence would you say I should have available in case the airline questions the validity of my passport?

The kids weren't allowed to board the flights because they didn't have an entry stamp in their passport and they didn't have to correct documents to leave Thailand , documents from a Court or something 

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The kids weren't allowed to board the flights because they didn't have an entry stamp in their passport and they didn't have to correct documents to leave Thailand , documents from a Court or something 

That may be true, but it is the first I have heard that UK citizens born in Thailand need exit visas to leave the country.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

That may be true, but it is the first I have heard that UK citizens born in Thailand need exit visas to leave the country.

Its not an exit visa , its the Thai parent giving the foreigner father the legal right to take the kid out of Thailand by getting legal/court documents .

   Its to stop child abductions 

[arithai12]

9 minutes ago, BritTim said:

This argument is going around in circles. Three UK citizens were denied boarding for a flight to the UK (where, with UK passports, they had no need for visas to enter). You stated that the airline was within their right to do so because the passports might be fake. I do not see how there is any greater risk that their passports would be fake than mine. The UK authorities are very careful when it comes to issuing of initial UK passports. For it to be issued in Thailand, this will have included a visit with the children to the UK embassy for an interview.

We are going in circles because posters like you keep presenting only a part of the story. The issue was clarified already in the initial posts. It's not about entering UK (which would have been ok of course), but about leaving Thailand. The OP clarified that the children were travelling on UK passports without entry stamps and with the mother using a Thai passport, without the father present or relevant letter. Ubonjoe gave the appropriate answer.

 

Sorry about the stress that this quite unusual situation caused to the family, but it seems to me that the airline followed the law.

[soi3eddie]

24 minutes ago, BritTim said:

You stated that the airline was within their right to do so because the passports might be fake.

No i did not. The airline can deny boarding for any perceived reason. I did not say that the passports might be fake. The UK Border would not refuse entry on a valid UK passport. Please don't misquote me. The issue here is with the airline and not the Thai or British authorities. 

 

 

 

 

[Gallstone]

On 6/30/2022 at 10:30 AM, ubonjoe said:

You need to complete this form I found on the London embassy website. https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/umufy3EgqL/คำขอ.pdf  It is in Thai. I think you will need to make a appointment to get consular officer to sign it.

Info is here in English for passports but it is not that clear as to what is needed. I does not mention the consent form if you are married.

I suggest that your wife contact the nearest passport office about it. List of offices in Thai is here. https://consular.mfa.go.th/th/publicservice/19745-สถานที่ให้บริการหนังสือเดินทาง

There may be more info that she can find the website.

 

FYI I did this today at the Thai Embassy in London it only took 15 minutes. I called in advance and no appointment was needed. It's done in the basement part of the building.

 

The only document you need to take is your own passport and a stamped addressed envelope for return of the consent letters (You get one per child)

 

Then you fill in the consent form which you showed (although they use a hybrid one with English too) and a payment form. Basically just add your name address and names of the children. 

Then they photocopy your passport get you to sign it and pay their fee which is £10 (that was the total for 2 children)

 

So in a few days I'll get the verified consent letters posted to me.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Gallstone

[falang1969]

I always use my kids Thai passports for leaving/arriving in Thailand and UK passports for entering/leaving the UK....always seemed the most obvious and easiest thing to do.

 

A serious question though....say they HAD left on a UK passport, when they come back to Thailand on a UK passport they will be treated as a UK citizen arriving in Thailand and all the hassle re visa's that most of us have to deal with? Correct?

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by falang1969

[falang1969]

3 hours ago, BritTim said:

This argument is going around in circles. Three UK citizens were denied boarding for a flight to the UK (where, with UK passports, they had no need for visas to enter). You stated that the airline was within their right to do so because the passports might be fake. I do not see how there is any greater risk that their passports would be fake than mine. The UK authorities are very careful when it comes to issuing of initial UK passports. For it to be issued in Thailand, this will have included a visit with the children to the UK embassy for an interview.

"For it to be issued in Thailand, this will have included a visit with the children to the UK embassy for an interview."

 

We just filled out the UK passport application forms and submitted them via Chiang Mai VFS, never had an "interview", 3 weeks later passports arrived.

 

 

[Edwin Cameron]

Good luck my friend, it must be very frustrating for you, 

[bbko]

19 hours ago, khunPer said:

A Thai minor leaving Thailand without the mother might often need a written permission from the mother. That's a letter issued at the local amphor-office. It looks like this (the letter used to give me permission to take my daughter on a trip out of Thailand)...

 

I'm an American citizen, my wife is Thai and our 15 y/o son has dual citizenship, my son was born in Thailand and has never left Thailand but we're in the process of getting my wife a green card and then all of us will move to the US for few years. My son has both a Thai & US passport.

 

I plan on flying back to the US a few months ahead of my wife and son to get things ready (home, car, work, school).  Would I need to get a letter (like the attached photo) allowing my wife to fly with my son to come and stay with me in the US?

TIA.

[Doctor Tom]

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

I sincerely hope that no airline is going to decide that my UK passport might not be valid for travel. What supporting evidence would you say I should have available in case the airline questions the validity of my passport?

Its not a matter of passport validity its a matter of complying with the immigration rules at both departure point and arrival point.  That is what gets airlines fined. The OP passports did not comply with Thai immigration departure  requirements in that they did could not have had a visa stamp, a departure card,  or an arrival stamp, they were therefore  invalid as a travel document from Thailand  

[LukKrueng]

On 6/30/2022 at 3:31 PM, GinBoy2 said:

I get all that, but it still seems odd.

 

I don't get why the airline refused them at check in.

 

You know better than any of us, the usual flow of things is that you show the passport at check in that grants you entry into the country of destination, either a passport of that country or a visa to that country.

 

It's usually only at immigration where a Thai passport, or a foreign passport with an entry stamp is shown.

 

I along with thousands of us have done this when traveling with our kids out of BKK.

 

I've never come across airline counter agents acting as first line immigration

Happened to me on more than 1 occasion that when I showed airline check in staff only the passport that will allow me entry to the destination country they also demanded to see the passport with which I entered the country I'm about to leave. Can't remember if it happened in Thailand though.

[brewsterbudgen]

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

That may be true, but it is the first I have heard that UK citizens born in Thailand need exit visas to leave the country.

They don't, if they have the Thai birth certificate to show that they are not entitled to Thai citizenship.  My British son was born in Thailand and his Thai birth certificate clearly states "not entitled to Thai citizenship", so we had no issue leaving Thailand on his unused UK passport.