Worried about return to Thailand

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Take it you do not see the OP as being current.

He should apply for the visa in the UK, but obviously free to ignore the potential risk and follow alternative advice.

Much better to not do so as per his very specific request about avoiding the insurance requirement.

[KhunBENQ]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The non-o visa application has to be approved at the division level of immigration

So another visit to immigration office to get stamped.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, KhunBENQ said:

So another visit to immigration office to get stamped.

Yes

[Digitalbanana]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:40 AM, Robin said:

Might be stupid questions, but I am hoping for a trouble free entry, and would like to  be prepared before arrival aand not get a shock at LHR check-in or SVB arrivals.

Agree with all thats been said, I'd come and get a visa exempt entry on arrival, but I thought you would also have to get one of those throwaway onward flight tickets as well just in case its asked for at Thai immigration or more the case on boarding in UK?

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Insurance for a retirement visa is not a "what if" and if I planned to be here on retirement basis I would have the appropriate visa before leaving the UK.

You are correct that insurance is not a "what if" when applying for a Non O on the basis of retirement in the UK. That is a good reason not to do that.

 

An "appropriate visa" to use to enter Thailand is whatever the most convenient legal option might be based on your current plans. If the objective is long term residence in Thailand as a retiree, in most cases (as has already been explained) the most appropriate plan is to enter Thailand visa exempt, and apply for the Non O visa on the basis of retirement once here. In that way, you avoid the insurance requirement.

 

Of course, those that prefer the extra cost of insurance (and a slightly more expensive visa) are welcome to get their visa while still in the UK. To me, that is not very logical, and those over age 75, or with pre-existing conditions, may have extreme difficulty getting the necessary insurance at any cost.

[hotandsticky]

21 hours ago, sandyf said:

The history is irrelevant, it would not be out of the question for the requirements for a Non O based on retirement to become the same.

 

The UK has been doing Non O based on pension for a long time and they added the requirement to the visa even though the COE was a separate process which required insurance.

 

The way things are now, many will do as the OP and arrive visa exempt in the hope of circumventing the insurance. This could well lead to a rise in conversions which may very well make it much more difficult.

Telling people that there won't be a problem converting visa exempt to Non O retirement may not be the best advice going forward.

 

 

Scaremongering about the future is pointless.

 

Advice can only be given based on current requirements - and above advice is spot on.

[Robin]

Sorry, but I have less confidence in Thailand's welcome for retirees than I did.

it used to e the case that i could get a Non O visa from RTE London just for the asking and paying the fee, no mention of insurance or Funds in bank.

I have been happily in LOS on non O retirement with several yearly extensions and travelling on Re-Entry permits, but since Covid life has become more complicated.

I had to visit UK earlier this year and events caused me to stay beyond the expire date of my visa in Thailand.  I thought it would be  formality for start again with my retirement visa, and now it seems to have more layers of complication and expense.

I am going to take Dr. Jack's advice and try for a visa exempt entry and convert to Non O and subsequent retirement when in Thailand, using my normal Immigration at Phayao.  I have money in bank and are known to the Phayao I/O, so hope that no trouble with this.

I will go to I/O soon after arrival in Phayao and start the process, so allowing time for alternative approaches, like using an agent, if there is any difficulties.

I will be flying on 1 way ticket with THAI on 22 Aug, so hoping that they will not be insisting on onward flight or ticket out.  if here is any doubt on this, then I will look for the cheapest onward ticket; I believe that there are some cheap "non-tickets" available on the net that will satisfy this.  i do not want to risk leaving LOS until I have my visa sorted.

Many thanks for all the advice and suggestions from Forum members.

[DrJack54]

20 minutes ago, Robin said:

I believe that there are some cheap "non-tickets" available on the net that will satisfy this

Indeed. 

Google "onwardflight.com" or "rent a flight" 

Approx 15usd.

Or throw away ticket.

It would not be asked at Thai immigration however may be asked by airline at departure.

 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Much better to not do so as per his very specific request about avoiding the insurance requirement.

There was no specific request. There is a big difference between insurance for OA and arriving on Non O.

"NB I am 78 yrs old, so medical insurance for OA is difficult, and I hope that I can continue in Thailand as before on Non O retirement."

The OP also said he wanted an "easy" entry, what would be easier than arriving on a Non O visa.

 

The problem is not as difficult as the OP suggested, as I pointed out. Removes all need for "backup" plans which could end up costing a great deal more than doing the visa in the UK..

Attempting to circumvent requirements is never without risk, and shouldn't be seen as the first option.

Life is all about choices and people are perfectly free to tread whichever path they choose. How smooth that path will be will only ever be known when the destination has been reached.

Edited July 17, 2022 by sandyf

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

There was no specific request. There is a big difference between insurance for OA and arriving on Non O.

"NB I am 78 yrs old, so medical insurance for OA is difficult, and I hope that I can continue in Thailand as before on Non O retirement."

The OP also said he wanted an "easy" entry, what would be easier than arriving on a Non O visa.

 

The problem is not as difficult as the OP suggested, as I pointed out. Removes all need for "backup" plans which could end up costing a great deal more than doing the visa in the UK..

Attempting to circumvent requirements is never without risk, and shouldn't be seen as the first option.

Life is all about choices and people are perfectly free to tread whichever path they choose. How smooth that path will be will only ever be known when the destination has been reached.

There was such a specific request but I understand that those suffering from terminal literalism could be blind to it.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Scaremongering about the future is pointless.

 

Advice can only be given based on current requirements - and above advice is spot on.

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

Should that come about it would obviously be the fault of immigration, not those that promoted the abuse.

[sandyf]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

There was such a specific request but I understand that those suffering from terminal literalism could be blind to it.

When all else fails!!

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

Should that come about it would obviously be the fault of immigration, not those that promoted the abuse.

He came for practical advice on his visa concerns and his very clear desire to avoid insurance.  You deliver off topic, unhelpful, rather obsessive preaching.

 

So tedious!

 

If Thai immigration  stops doing conversions in country, then we will know about it.

 

That time is not upon us.

 

Cheerio.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Jingthing

[hotandsticky]

42 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

Should that come about it would obviously be the fault of immigration, not those that promoted the abuse.

 

 

No tunnel vision here, it was several years of living in Thailand before I discovered that Immigration CAN issue visas internally (I realised that can actually do whatever they want, if the price is right).

 

I am one of the few Farangs who keep a copy, and has read, the Land Traffic Act B. E. 2522 (1979)  -  just because a Thai driving rule is included in there does not mean that everybody will stick to it. Thailand is the master of the grey area and finding solutions.  

 

The imperative words in the above post is "should that come about"......  That is baseless, just as trite as saying 'what if' to everything. Unfortunately, many of your posts have become tedious and preaching - it matters not what you want, or think is right, what is happening on the ground is what matters and that is the advice the OP is looking for.

 

The ultimate fallback is the good old visa agent.

Edited July 17, 2022 by hotandsticky

[OJAS]

On 7/16/2022 at 8:42 AM, DrJack54 said:

Won't waste time worry about "what ifs" in the meantime and I certainly would not post hyperbole in meantime. 

Well, one particular "what if" that many of us do seem to be worrying about to a considerable extent at the present time is whether the mandatory health insurance requirement will, in fact, increase to 3,000,000 THB / 100,000 USD for all non-OA visa holders past and present from 1 September. The only basis for asserting that this will be the case is an announcement made some time ago by the MOPH. However, to the best of my knowledge it is the Immigration Bureau, not the MOPH, who are responsible for formulating and enforcing immigration policy in LOS.

 

As far as I am concerned, therefore, I shall only accept that an increased 3,000,000 THB / 100,000 USD health insurance requirement will apply to all non-OA visa holders from 1 September when and if a Police Order confirming this is issued by the Immigration Bureau (in connection with which 1 September is, of course, now only 7-8 weeks away).

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by OJAS

[hotandsticky]

14 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Well, one particular "what if" that many of us do seem to be worrying about to a considerable extent at the present time is whether the mandatory health insurance requirement will, in fact, increase to 3,000,000 THB / 100,000 USD for all non-OA visa holders past and present from 1 September. The only basis for asserting that this will be the case is an announcement made some time ago by the MOPH. However, to the best of my knowledge it is the Immigration Bureau, not the MOPH, who are responsible for formulating and enforcing immigration policy in LOS.

 

As far as I am concerned, therefore, I shall only accept that an increased 3,000,000 THB / 100,000 USD health insurance requirement will apply to all non-OA visa holders from 1 September when and if a Police Order confirming this is issued by the Immigration Bureau (in connection with which 1 September is, of course, now only 7-8 weeks away).

 

 

 

Do you have other visa options if such a decision were to be made on 'O-A' visas?

 

 

Again, I see no point in worrying about the 'what ifs' - it is a debilitating process. Altogether different is the sensible action of making sure you have options available in the event of any major change in visa requirements. 

[DrJack54]

15 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Well, one particular "what if" that many of us do seem to be worrying about to a considerable extent at the present time is whether the mandatory health insurance requirement will, in fact, increase to 3,000,000 THB / 100,000 USD for all non-OA visa holders past and present from 1 September

The OP is about non O retirement.

NOT non O-A.

My reply was to someone banging on about the future possibility of insurance becoming a requirement for extensions to non O retirement.

Not slightest bit interested in insurance requirements for non O-A. 

[CMBob]

23 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Dumb question came to my mind (could not find a clear answer).

I read that for the Non O application you need at least 15 (or 21) days remaining permission to stay.

Does this imply that the Non O application will be "under consideration" and a second visit to immigration office is necessary or is it approved on the spot/same day?

Not a dumb question.  In Chiangmai, it's 21 days, other places may be 14 days.  On your first trip to Immigration, they will tell you when to show up for the second trip which basically is a time for them to stamp the Non-O in your passport and send you on your way.

[CMBob]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

Should that come about it would obviously be the fault of immigration, not those that promoted the abuse.

Come on, enough.  As others have correctly said, there's no current reason to believe the OP (or anybody else) will find a new set of rules for converting in-country to a Non-O from either a visa exempt or a Tourist Visa. Last fall, I converted from visa exempt to the Non-O without a problem.....and no rules regarding that process have changed in the interim.  Unless you're aware of a rule change and can support it with something other than pure speculation, perhaps best to not offer your comments that serve only to confuse. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

Should that come about it would obviously be the fault of immigration, not those that promoted the abuse.

This is not a discussion about what may come about in the future - it is about what the actual, current requirements are for someone retiring to Thailand right now.

 

You may well be right about what could be coming down the pipe, but speculation about what might happen in the future is not helpful to the OP who just wants to know what he needs at this precise moment in time.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

What leads you to believe that a procedure that is clearly outlined by immigration, has dual language guidance and has 2 forms TM86 (application for change of visa) and TM87 (application for visa) is in anyway a concession or is likely to be abolished.

 

That your opinion is that visas are not normally issued within Thailand’s borders does not make it true. They have been and are.
 

That your opinion is that this immigration law/rule will be abolished if it is used doesn’t make it true.

 

The Immigration department and Thai government clearly saw a need for this or they would not have instituted it.

 

So your post seems to have no basis in fact and is just fear mongering. 
 

The only likely change could be in the requirements for these visas.

[Jingthing]

While I agree that pursuing a visa conversion in Thailand is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and what I suggest, I will reiterate that approval of such applications is not guaranteed. They have discretion to turn  down any applications  In the case of conversions where proof of money import is required that part could be a potential deal breaker for some.

In other words do your research, then proceed with confidence, but never get too cocky.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Jingthing

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

You, and others, have become tunnel visioned.

Visas are not normally issued within a country's borders, you have no right to getting a visa from immigration.

It is a concession and abuse very often leads to concessions being withdrawn.

Should that come about it would obviously be the fault of immigration, not those that promoted the abuse.

This is an absurd argument.

1. You can theoretically be refused any visa at any time, wherever you apply for it. In practice, if you can meet the requirements, it is very rare for a visa to be denied, especially Non Immigrant visas. The more onerous the requirements (a perfect example being insurance) the more likely it is that you will be unable to meet them. Is needing to arrange otherwise unnecessary insurance really the easiest way to get your Non O visa as you imply?
2. What abuse are you referring to? The authorities have specifically created a system that allows you to apply for Non Immigrant visas under certain conditions after entering Thailand with a tourist visa or visa exempt entry. How is using that service "an abuse"? Are you suggesting that, when creating the system, the authorities did not expect it to be used?
3. Note that, having applied for, and received a visa, it is still possible for you to be denied boarding for your flight to Thailand (if you want to look for unlikely issues). It is possible for Immigration to give the airline a DNB ("do not board") instruction when they receive the passenger list from the airline via APIS (Advance Passenger Information System). Unlike a denied visa application, you are given no ability to argue your case should this happen.

Edited July 17, 2022 by BritTim

[sandyf]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:35 AM, sandyf said:

To obtain a Non O based on retirement in the UK there is now an insurance requirement.

I have just logged on to the E-visa site and this message popped up. I wasn't aware and obviously neither were those that advocated circumventing the insurance.

No valid reason for the OP not getting the visa before travel.

 

Attention : From 1 July 2022, proof of quarantine hotel/hospital booking is no longer required. Health insurance(s) are required only for Special Tourist Visa (STV), and Long-Stay Visas (Non-Immigration OA and OX) applications.

 

 

[KhunBENQ]

7 hours ago, CMBob said:

Not a dumb question.  In Chiangmai, it's 21 days, other places may be 14 days. 

Thanks too.

Just coming back from Nong Khai with my 30 day stamp. Tomorrow need a rest and Tuesday off to Khon Kaen.

Too tired to write details.

Will do a threat when KK has accepted my TM 87 application.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, BritTim said:

What abuse are you referring to? The authorities have specifically created a system that allows you to apply for Non Immigrant visas under certain conditions after entering Thailand with a tourist visa or visa exempt entry.

It would be a reflection on the mentality for anyone to believe that immigration will convert visa status so that you don't need to apply before leaving your home country.

 

The London Thai embassy clearly state the visa requirements required for UK nationals travelling to Thailand. Those that try and circumvent the requirements are abusing the system, although they will convince themselves otherwise and then argue the toss.

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

It would be a reflection on the mentality for anyone to believe that immigration will convert visa status so that you don't need to apply before leaving your home country.

OK, I am paying attention. What is the reason for providing a service only available to those who enter Thailand with a tourist visa or visa exempt? If you must apply before coming to Thailand, who can use this service?

Edited July 18, 2022 by BritTim

[oldcpu]

On 7/16/2022 at 12:11 PM, Digitalbanana said:

Agree with all thats been said, I'd come and get a visa exempt entry on arrival, but I thought you would also have to get one of those throwaway onward flight tickets as well just in case its asked for at Thai immigration or more the case on boarding in UK?

I was recently able to purchase a 740 Thai baht (real - not throw away) one-way ticket with Air Asia flying from Krabi to Kuala Lumpur.   Its a real ticket (I could use it if I wished, albeit it is the most basic economy with no check-in luggage - and I have no plan to visit KL).

 

But its 100% legitimate so there will be no worries that some 'throw away ticket' company's ticket could be rejected when checked, when boarding a flight outside of Thailand to fly to Thailand.

.

[JerseytoBKK]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:28 AM, KhunBENQ said:

Dumb question came to my mind (could not find a clear answer).

I read that for the Non O application you need at least 15 (or 21) days remaining permission to stay.

Does this imply that the Non O application will be "under consideration" and a second visit to immigration office is necessary or is it approved on the spot/same day?

Last time I did this was about 15 months ago in Bangkok, Division 1 (CW). They took all the copies and forms and made an appointment for me to come back in 14 days to find out if I was approved to get the non-O visa. 

[KhunBENQ]

3 hours ago, JerseytoBKK said:

Last time I did this was about 15 months ago in Bangkok,

Did today at KK immigration.

 

Short summary.

 

Sunday 17 July:

Drive with my car up to Nong Khai and park there.

Leave Thailand without re-entry permit (cost some persuading three immigration officers). So cancelled the tiresome Non O-A visa status.

I had remaining extension until October but with all the talk and rising excitement about Covid wave I decided not to waste any time (was unable to do something in 2020/2021 due to border closures).

Enter Laos for a 2 hour excursion.

I am visa exempt, so can not contribute about visa on arrival cost/procedure.

Leave Laos, back to Thailand.

Again rising eyebrow about no re-entry but convinced the officer I want 30 day exempt stamp.

 

Monday 18 July

Off to Bangkok Bank getting bank letter for fixed deposit account (>800k since ages)

 

Today 19 July

Off to Khon Kaen immigration applying for Non O visa retirement.

The heaviest copy orgy ever experienced

Two sets with estimated 40 sheets of copies (bankbook completely incl empty pages, passport "only" to last non empty, yellow book, pink card, departure card...).

Even though I had 2x copied what I was aware of I needed three runs to the copier.

Ran out of small change.

Near 40 signatures on copies. The lady officer double and triple checked before completing for the boss (division head).

Finally paid 2000 Baht and the receipt was stamped with an under consideration stamp. Must come back Aug 12.

As a free add-on I got a proper TM 30 based on my "yellow housebook" and "pink card". Never had an appropriate TM 30 in more than 10 years.

I think I sat more than one hour!

Edited July 19, 2022 by KhunBENQ
Aug 12!