The Great Thai Mask debate: Dr Taveesin asks the public in Thailand to continue to wear masks in enclosed spaces

[rattlesnake]

16 minutes ago, BangkokHank said:

I stopped reading the article you posted at this paragraph:

 

"Recently, I was part of the largest randomized controlled trial to date testing the effectiveness of mask-wearing. The study has yet to be peer reviewed but has been well received by the medical community."

 

You should be suspended for posting un-peer-reviewed misinformation. Or is peer review only necessary for studies that go against the official narrative?

Good point, there clearly is a pro-pharmaceutical bias on this forum.

 

The same can be said for so-called 'anecdotal' observations. If you say you've had zero shots and have never caught Covid (which is the case for me as well as all the people I know who refused the shot), it's anecdotal and proves nothing. But those who say they're triple-vaxed, caught Covid but "thankful for the vaccine because otherwise it would have been worse" do not receive such replies.

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, BangkokHank said:

I stopped reading the article you posted at this paragraph:

 

"Recently, I was part of the largest randomized controlled trial to date testing the effectiveness of mask-wearing. The study has yet to be peer reviewed but has been well received by the medical community."

 

You should be suspended for posting un-peer-reviewed misinformation. Or is peer review only necessary for studies that go against the official narrative?

There's millions of articles on the net stating that masks are effective. The rules of this forum only require a link to evidence that is credible and not widely contested by other credible evidence. I challenge you to find me a single credible link to evidence which says masks don't work.

[mania]

13 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I would not copy anything the French did wrt Covid as they had the highest infection numbers in Europe!

Yeah right probably have the most colds too

Meanwhile it was the same in Italy & Spain at their grand tours & is the same all over America both north & south

 

But best you stick with the "Superior" Thai mentality as you have been assimilated ????

[rattlesnake]

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

There's millions of articles on the net stating that masks are effective. The rules of this forum only require a link to evidence that is credible and not widely contested by other credible evidence. I challenge you to find me a single credible link to evidence which says masks don't work.

Here are a few among many.

 

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

“Evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza…none of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group…the overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies.”

 

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub5/full

“There is low certainty evidence from nine trials (3507 participants) that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness (ILI) compared to not wearing a mask (risk ratio (RR) 0.99, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.82 to 1.18. There is moderate certainty evidence that wearing a mask probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza compared to not wearing a mask (RR 0.91, 95% CI 0.66 to 1.26; 6 trials; 3005 participants)…the pooled results of randomised trials did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks during seasonal influenza.”

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32675098/#affiliation-1

“This systematic review found limited evidence that the use of masks might reduce the risk of viral respiratory infections.”

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1755436516300858?via=ihub

“Facemask use provided a non-significant protective effect (OR = 0.53; 95% CI 0.16–1.71; I2 = 48%) against 2009 pandemic influenza infection.”

 

https://pdmj.org/papers/masks_false_safety_and_real_dangers_part1

“Surgical personnel are trained to never touch any part of a mask, except the loops and the nose bridge. Otherwise, the mask is considered useless and is to be replaced. Surgical personnel are strictly trained not to touch their masks otherwise. However, the general public may be seen touching various parts of their masks. Even the masks just removed from manufacturer packaging have been shown in the above photos to contain particulate and fiber that would not be optimal to inhale… Further concerns of macrophage response and other immune and inflammatory and fibroblast response to such inhaled particles specifically from facemasks should be the subject of more research. If widespread masking continues, then the potential for inhaling mask fibers and environmental and biological debris continues on a daily basis for hundreds of millions of people. This should be alarming for physicians and epidemiologists knowledgeable in occupational hazards.”

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, mania said:

But best you stick with the "Superior" Thai mentality as you have been assimilated

As I am of an age in the high risk group I will do what I feel is sensible. Europe/USA with its high infection and mortality rates should not be held up as shining examples .... 

France... that is a good laugh..... 

[Rampant Rabbit]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

As I am of an age in the high risk group I will do what I feel is sensible. Europe/USA with its high infection and mortality rates should not be held up as shining examples .... 

France... that is a good laugh..... 

it  could  turn out to be a  latitude  thing  not a  western mindset  thing

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32599103/

[BangkokHank]

8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

There's millions of articles on the net stating that masks are effective. The rules of this forum only require a link to evidence that is credible and not widely contested by other credible evidence. I challenge you to find me a single credible link to evidence which says masks don't work.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason you don't see any links to credible evidence that masks don't work is because such evidence is censored in most other places as well? It's no wonder you and others have such trouble finding the truth. In the world that we live in now, you really have to search for it. It's not going to be delivered to you by Google - or the mainstream media.

[jak2002003]

11 minutes ago, BangkokHank said:

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason you don't see any links to credible evidence that masks don't work is because such evidence is censored in most other places as well? It's no wonder you and others have such trouble finding the truth. In the world that we live in now, you really have to search for it. It's not going to be delivered to you by Google - or the mainstream media.

And there is no incentive or funding into research / studies to prove masks are not helpful either.

 

Why would mask companies fund research into proving their masks don't work? They want to sell them! 

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

And there is no incentive or funding into research / studies to prove masks are not helpful either.

 

Why would mask companies fund research into proving their masks don't work? They want to sell them! 

They don't need to. How do you disprove tests that show they do work? More tests? Yes, they have done them too. Your ship has sailed.

[Tony125]

9 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Here are a few among many.

 

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

“Evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza…none of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group…the overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies.”

 

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub5/full

“There is low certainty evidence from nine trials (3507 participants) that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness (ILI) compared to not wearing a mask (risk ratio (RR) 0.99, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.82 to 1.18. There is moderate certainty evidence that wearing a mask probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza compared to not wearing a mask (RR 0.91, 95% CI 0.66 to 1.26; 6 trials; 3005 participants)…the pooled results of randomised trials did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks during seasonal influenza.”

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32675098/#affiliation-1

“This systematic review found limited evidence that the use of masks might reduce the risk of viral respiratory infections.”

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1755436516300858?via=ihub

“Facemask use provided a non-significant protective effect (OR = 0.53; 95% CI 0.16–1.71; I2 = 48%) against 2009 pandemic influenza infection.”

 

https://pdmj.org/papers/masks_false_safety_and_real_dangers_part1

“Surgical personnel are trained to never touch any part of a mask, except the loops and the nose bridge. Otherwise, the mask is considered useless and is to be replaced. Surgical personnel are strictly trained not to touch their masks otherwise. However, the general public may be seen touching various parts of their masks. Even the masks just removed from manufacturer packaging have been shown in the above photos to contain particulate and fiber that would not be optimal to inhale… Further concerns of macrophage response and other immune and inflammatory and fibroblast response to such inhaled particles specifically from facemasks should be the subject of more research. If widespread masking continues, then the potential for inhaling mask fibers and environmental and biological debris continues on a daily basis for hundreds of millions of people. This should be alarming for physicians and epidemiologists knowledgeable in occupational hazards.”

Your links are from tests done between 2017----2020  Tests after Covid came out in 2020  may have had different results. For one we know that picking up infection from surfaces is slight.  Infection thru the eyes althought theoretically possible has not been proven as the infection is basically respiratory in nature.  Sitting in a restaurant for limited time without a mask may be slight risk depending how much virus (viral load ) you inhale. Sitting in a bar with out a mask talking, shouting ,laughing and spreading'inhaling virus for a longer time causes more viral load inhaled and more danger to infection.

 

[Rimmer]

Off topic post and replies removed

[rattlesnake]

20 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Your links are from tests done between 2017----2020  Tests after Covid came out in 2020  may have had different results. For one we know that picking up infection from surfaces is slight.  Infection thru the eyes althought theoretically possible has not been proven as the infection is basically respiratory in nature.  Sitting in a restaurant for limited time without a mask may be slight risk depending how much virus (viral load ) you inhale. Sitting in a bar with out a mask talking, shouting ,laughing and spreading'inhaling virus for a longer time causes more viral load inhaled and more danger to infection.

 

They are studies run by qualified parties (including the CDC) which conclude that masks have limited effectiveness in reducing the spread of viruses. Whether one chooses to give them credit or not is a personal choice but these studies were indeed carried out.

 

To me, claming that they are not relevant to Covid just proves the politicization of science, which is a real issue. I recently read a great article on the subject by Paul E Alexander, MSc PhD, and other contributors, published on the AIER's website. I am sharing it here. I will also post the conclusion which I found particularly relevant:

 

https://www.aier.org/article/the-cdcs-mask-mandate-study-debunked/

 

Trusting the science means relying on the scientific process and method and not merely ‘following the leader.’ It is not the same as trusting, without verification, the conclusory statements of human beings simply because they have scientific training or credentials. This is especially so if their views and inquiry have become politicized. Dr. Martin Kulldorff of Harvard’s Medical School has recently commented on the present Covid-19 scientific and research environment by stating, “After 300 years, the Age of Enlightenment has ended.”  Sadly, we must agree, that it’s not just that the age of enlightenment has come to an end, but indeed, that the science itself has been politicized and severely corrupted.

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

They are studies run by qualified parties (including the CDC) which conclude that masks have limited effectiveness in reducing the spread of viruses. Whether one chooses to give them credit or not is a personal choice but these studies were indeed carried out.

 

To me, claming that they are not relevant to Covid just proves the politicization of science, which is a real issue.

Don't be ridiculous. This topic is about covid. 99.9999% of modern mask wearing is to prevent covid and you claim that studies which precede covid are somehow relevant.Your claim that the discussion of mask wearing to prevent covid is politicized is ridiculous. Politicizing covid is an issue. The politicization of the issue has come about only because the right need to run interference for Trump's failure to get the problem under control early.

 

6 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I recently read a great article on the subject by Paul E Alexander, MSc PhD, and other contributors, published on the AIER's website. I am sharing it here. I will also post the conclusion which I found particularly relevant:

 

https://www.aier.org/article/the-cdcs-mask-mandate-study-debunked/

 

Trusting the science means relying on the scientific process and method and not merely ‘following the leader.’ It is not the same as trusting, without verification, the conclusory statements of human beings simply because they have scientific training or credentials. This is especially so if their views and inquiry have become politicized. Dr. Martin Kulldorff of Harvard’s Medical School has recently commented on the present Covid-19 scientific and research environment by stating, “After 300 years, the Age of Enlightenment has ended.”  Sadly, we must agree, that it’s not just that the age of enlightenment has come to an end, but indeed, that the science itself has been politicized and severely corrupted.

 

[arithai12]

4 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

And there is no incentive or funding into research / studies to prove masks are not helpful either.

 

Why would mask companies fund research into proving their masks don't work? They want to sell them! 

Far from me to enter the debate about masks, I do what I think is right for me and I am happy with whatever others choose to do.

But to imagine that companies that manufacture masks would/would not fund research to influence sales, I find that hard to believe. I buy masks for a pittance,  when you deduct costs of packaging and shipping and retail commission I doubt that even by selling a few millions masks a company makes enough money to fund researchers... maybe they pay them with masks?

[metisdead]

Some more off topic posts have been removed.

[atpeace]

If you look hard enough online, it is not difficult to find creditable sources supporting almost any belief.  Where truth lies is being able to look at the data with an open mind and come to a sound conclusion.  Masks seem to be beneficial in reducing viral load of the transmitter and the receiver of the virus and arguing this is futile IMO.  Too much data out there supporting their use.

 

For me, I would rather not wear a mask in 99% of circumstances.  There is a time and place for everything and I would put one on for example, around a frail unhealthy individual if I couldn't avoid being near them.  The risk of a bad outcome is minimal for me personally and I would rather live life to its fullest.  

[Oblomov]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:29 AM, Reposed said:

If so, then I am also bashing the Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese. 

 

My comment was not demeaning; it was a cultural observation.

 

And thank you for the thoughtful suggestions on how I can be a better person.

'Thai basing' comments are daft - You (Reposed) make a sensible and accurate point that Thais will simply follow rules, even if totally daft such as outdoor mask wearing mandates, because they are raised to conform to the rules of the transparently corrupt regimes they either vote in or end up with by coup. I've lived near schools where valuable teaching time is wasted daily on singing anthems and waving flags. 

 

Viruses (especially flu type viruses) escape into populations (and always will) at the times it is simply impossible to isolate ourselves in crowded cities and towns so whether some engage in the theatre of masks outdoors for a few hours here and there or not, will have minimal impact on the control of an uncontrollable and widespread virus. 

 

Should we really be incinerating billions of tons of useless PPE at a time when parts of the world are literally on fire and further filling our dying oceans with billions of tons of our rubbish.

 

 

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Don't be ridiculous. This topic is about covid. 99.9999% of modern mask wearing is to prevent covid and you claim that studies which precede covid are somehow relevant.

Of course they are. Why would they not be? I would appreciate a dialectically sound argument.

 

And by the way if you had bothered to click on the links I posted you would have seen that three of them were published between May and November 2020.

[markclover]

I copy my students.  Always have a lollipop in your hand so you can say you are eating.

[jak2002003]

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Don't be ridiculous. This topic is about covid. 99.9999% of modern mask wearing is to prevent covid and you claim that studies which precede covid are somehow relevant.Your claim that the discussion of mask wearing to prevent covid is politicized is ridiculous. Politicizing covid is an issue. The politicization of the issue has come about only because the right need to run interference for Trump's failure to get the problem under control early.

 

 

You are mistaken. The masks are worn to prevent people who have COVID spreading it when they cough or sneeze.  They are not for preventing you getting it.  

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

You are mistaken. The masks are worn to prevent people who have COVID spreading it when they cough or sneeze.  They are not for preventing you getting it.  

They work both ways. Certainly, they are more effective at preventing others from getting infected but they reduce the chances of the wearer being infected as well. Significantly. They also reduce viral load in all cases of transmission. Suggesting they don't work at all in preventing the wearer from getting covid is misinformation.

[ThailandRyan]

3 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Of course they are. Why would they not be? I would appreciate a dialectically sound argument.

 

And by the way if you had bothered to click on the links I posted you would have seen that three of them were published between May and November 2020.

This is 2022, and new studies show a different view than what you posted.  But how about just letting it go, and agreeing to disagree and move on.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220301093655.htm

 

An international research team from universities including Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden, the University of Padua and the University of Udine in Italy, and the University of Vienna, Austria, has developed a new theoretical model to better assess the risks of spreading viruses such as Covid-19 -- with and without a face mask. The results show how the standard 'safe' distance of two meters does not always apply but varies greatly depending on a range of environmental factors, and that face masks can indeed play a crucial role.

 

The study revealed, for example, that a person talking without a face mask can spread infected droplets one meter away. Should the same person cough, the drops can be spread up to three meters and if the person sneezes, the spread distance can be up to seven meters. But using a face mask, the risk of spreading the infection decreases significantly.

"If you wear a surgical mask or an FFP2 mask, the risk of infection is reduced to such an extent that it is practically negligible -- even if you're only standing one meter away from an infected person,"

[jak2002003]

17 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

They work both ways. Certainly, they are more effective at preventing others from getting infected but they reduce the chances of the wearer being infected as well. Significantly. They also reduce viral load in all cases of transmission. Suggesting they don't work at all in preventing the wearer from getting covid is misinformation.

Yes it is.  I never suggest that.  For you to suggest I did is misinformation.  ????

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Yes it is.  I never suggest that.  For you to suggest I did is misinformation.  ????

You claimed they don't prevent you from getting covid which is misleading. Pedantic uses of the word "prevent" to imply that because they don't work 100% then they are ineffective is misinformation. If you don't qualify your claim then it's false.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

This is 2022, and new studies show a different view than what you posted.  But how about just letting it go, and agreeing to disagree and move on.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220301093655.htm

 

An international research team from universities including Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden, the University of Padua and the University of Udine in Italy, and the University of Vienna, Austria, has developed a new theoretical model to better assess the risks of spreading viruses such as Covid-19 -- with and without a face mask. The results show how the standard 'safe' distance of two meters does not always apply but varies greatly depending on a range of environmental factors, and that face masks can indeed play a crucial role.

 

The study revealed, for example, that a person talking without a face mask can spread infected droplets one meter away. Should the same person cough, the drops can be spread up to three meters and if the person sneezes, the spread distance can be up to seven meters. But using a face mask, the risk of spreading the infection decreases significantly.

"If you wear a surgical mask or an FFP2 mask, the risk of infection is reduced to such an extent that it is practically negligible -- even if you're only standing one meter away from an infected person,"

Plenty of studies both ways indeed.

 

I was responding to a comment claiming there were no credible links to evidence that masks don't work.

 

Just reestablishing the truth. You guys like truth and facts right? So there you go.

[2long]

For all those who want to continue to go along with this charade, WHEN WILL IT END?

Ok, a year or two ago we made sacrifices and believed those in charge about masking, lockdowns, and 'herd immunity' but none of them 'worked' (because we still have Covid).

So what do we wait for now?

Or will you guys continue to wear masks, hide from the world and worry for the rest of your lives?

 

[ThailandRyan]

4 minutes ago, 2long said:

For all those who want to continue to go along with this charade, WHEN WILL IT END?

Ok, a year or two ago we made sacrifices and believed those in charge about masking, lockdowns, and 'herd immunity' but none of them 'worked' (because we still have Covid).

So what do we wait for now?

Or will you guys continue to wear masks, hide from the world and worry for the rest of your lives?

 

No one's hiding, you just believe that by wearing a mask we are....nothing further from the truth.

[zzaa09]

21 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Plenty of studies both ways indeed.

 

I was responding to a comment claiming there were no credible links to evidence that masks don't work.

 

Just reestablishing the truth. You guys like truth and facts right? So there you go.

Not so much about appreciating truth and facts, but much more akin to be deeply conditioned/indoctrinated as to what truth [whatever that is] and facts might be.

 

The base ideals of hard wiring - repeated often and loud enough. 

[rattlesnake]

10 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Not so much about appreciating truth and facts, but much more akin to be deeply conditioned/indoctrinated as to what truth [whatever that is] and facts might be.

 

The base ideals of hard wiring - repeated often and loud enough. 

Interesting point. "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, basic principle of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.

 

Lisa Fazio of Vanderbilt University studied the subject a few years ago and came to the conclusion that repetition makes a fact seem more true, regardless of whether it is or not.

 

My rule of thumb is that if something is repeated too often, by too many people for too long, then it's suspicious.

[ozimoron]

24 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Not so much about appreciating truth and facts, but much more akin to be deeply conditioned/indoctrinated as to what truth [whatever that is] and facts might be.

 

The base ideals of hard wiring - repeated often and loud enough. 

Just like 2 + 2 = 4. Some facts get hard wired in easily. That masks work in reducing transmission is about as basic as 2 + 2. It is not a propaganda lie as you imply.