Needless death of a Thai teen whose friend was on the phone on a bike: So many questions about the Thai roads

[NoshowJones]

3 hours ago, NE1 said:

Been here so long , that reports like this do not surprise or bother me.

The only thing that does bother me is , if one of these stupid people falls off their bikes and gets run over or runs into a vehicle , then the vehicle driver is held accountable.

Not neccessary by law , but by the parents and police who think there should be some financial compensation.

 

Another reason again why I only keep enough money in Thailand for living expenses.

[Dont confuse me]

 

When I first came to Thailand I asked my friends Thai wife a serious question, "How old do you have to be to drive a motorcycle in Thailand "?

Her reply, "When your mum says you can"!

 

And that folks just about sums it up!

It's never gonna change simply because lessons etc are unaffordable to a lot of Thais.

[Fore Man]

I have to relate an experience I underwent a few years ago outside of Chiang Mai. I was driving my Fortuner along a country two-lane highway, directly into a blinding sunset.  About 400 meters before making a left turn into our subdivision’s prominent side gate, I flipped on my turn signal.  Immediately after doing so, I quickly passed by a motorcyclist carrying a passenger on his pillion seat, riding on the shoulder, seemingly oblivious to anyone else out there. A glance in my rear view mirror told me that I had enough time to make my turn before the biker caught up to me. But I was wrong and he smashed into my left front fascia before I’d completed my maneuver, completely failing to take notice of my advanced signaling. His bike was badly damaged plus his passenger suffered a broken leg. 
 

My first thought was, why didn’t he heed my turn signal and rear brake lights, as I’d given him ample time to prepare to either slow down or pass me on my right side?  When the police investigated at the scene, they explained that it was I who violated the law…that all motorcyclists and bicyclists are entitled to an unimpeded right of way when riding on the shoulder…which is considered under Thai traffic law to be a special bike lane, even though it is unmarked as such.  They went on to say that all other vehicular traffic must yield to any two-wheeled vehicles that could be jeopardized by such a turning maneuver.  
 

This was all news to me.  I’d lived in Thailand and in that same Chiang Mai area for 15 years at that point and this came as a total shock…that we must yield to any motorcycles driving on the shoulder. In the end we settled out of court, paying him a pittance of the outrageous amount he tried to extort from us. And indeed I learned a hard lesson. 
 

I realized that this incident probably would not have occurred if we weren’t both driving into a glaring setting sun, but I still found it hard to swallow that the motorcyclist had no culpability in causing the mishap and resolutely kept driving along the shoulder when I’d already indicated my intention to turn and began braking well beforehand.  Anybody with a shred of common sense would be expected to show some natural concern for self-preservation, but apparently this isn’t so in Thailand…where idiots can operate a motor vehicle without a shred of training, and likely with no accompanying license testing…nor with any common sense either.

[Titan1962]

Basically it all stems from lack of law enforcement,plus many of these kids grow up in rural areas where it’s accepted. You won’t change a thing until the police start confiscating bikes and fining the rider and family. Until that happens,nothing will change,just another day in Thailand. Same has to be said about zebra crossings,pulled up at one yesterday to let the person cross the road. Nearly got rear ended,the car past me on the right to avoid hitting me, No one else stopped in the outer lane so I proceeded with caution. The person who  wanted to cross the road just waited until there was a big enough gap in traffic for him to cross.

So your dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. Just like roundabouts,they honestly have no idea on how it’s supposed to work. They stop on the roundabout to let you enter,people here just don’t really give a flying F. 

[Archie Baker]

7 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

too many young people die on the road.. Why do parents allow them to ride a bike in the first place?? I see kids from primary school class 5 or 6 sometimes driving a motorcycle and when i see them in my class, sometimes injured I tell them that they are not allowed and if theyhave pain now I hope it will be a lesson.

Secondly the police is doing nothing about it.. High fines or confiscate the vehicles, that would hurt them and people only learn when they are hurt by things like this. 

Why is it impossible to let people drive with a helmet?? In other countries no problem but in Thailand .....

and than not to forget if you see people on a motorcycle, it seems that they are sitting at home on a sofa and talking to eachother, looking backwarths to pilon driver, checking their phones as if they are important businesspeople,. In the beginning I felt sorry for the young wasted lifes by motorcycle accidents, but now after almost 20 years in Thailand, I don't care anymore.... Stupidity can't be cured. 

Well said that man and I could not care less either.  Stupid is stupid and it is self propergating within Thai society.  

[VBF]

3 hours ago, seajae said:

family friends lost their 19year old son & his girlfriend yesterday when his bike was hit by a pickup that decided to drive through a stop sign and not give way, boy died at the scene and girl died in hospital later. Driver reckons he didnt see them but it is a very open T intersection, bike had right of way as well but typical of many thai drivers the pickup didnt want to stop, they think that stop signs are a recomendation only and if they want to be ignorant they can ignore them. Really hope he is locked up as it should be murder but he will more than likely get off, the arrogance of many thai road users is a major problem, they think the road laws dont apply to them, police are at fault for not enforcing the rules, if they actually got out on the roads as they do in the western countries they might just make a difference

Totally agree - adding to what you said the people who commit offences like the one you mentioned need to be  punished when they are caught...not "if" they are caught.

If that had happened in UK (and no doubt other Western countries) the driver would have been charged with "causing death by dangerous driving" which is indeed an imprisonable offence.

[cncltd1973]

motorcycles/scooters are thought of as self powered bicycles and aren't taken seriously. if a child is good on a bicycle, then it's time they learn the scooter. it's just the way it is.

 

how many times can one experience deja vu before one stops caring? it won't change, just accept it and move along to more pleasant things.

[Kinnock]

7 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

I have come to the conclusion that there is a huge cultural feeling that accidents are karma/destiny and an element of fatalism. 

Yes ..... and talking about risks or taking precautions is inviting an accident.  

[Deli]

Ban cell phones for females younger than 20. A blessing for everybody.

[jesimps]

4 hours ago, ChrisKC said:

The Top Government doesn't care

 

The Ministry of Transport and Health do not care

 

The police do not care

 

Parents do not care

 

Children do not care    -  What chance have they got??

 

And none of this is NEWS!

No one here cares. Whenever I try to discuss a road accident with my Thai missus, she refuses to listen and quickly changes the subject. I honestly think it's the karma mentality and that the locals think that if it's their turn, all the safety precautions in the world won't prevent it. It's impossible to convince her that using a cellphone whilst riding a motorbike is dangerous and stupid.

I've said it so many times, but I'll say it again: As far as common sense is concerned, Thais are all five year olds in adult bodies. 

[Denim]

2 hours ago, KannikaP said:

.............WITHOUT.................................

Yes. Apologies . My typo

[Fore Man]

27 minutes ago, jesimps said:

No one here cares. Whenever I try to discuss a road accident with my Thai missus, she refuses to listen and quickly changes the subject. I honestly think it's the karma mentality and that the locals think that if it's their turn, all the safety precautions in the world won't prevent it. It's impossible to convince her that using a cellphone whilst riding a motorbike is dangerous and stupid.

I've said it so many times, but I'll say it again: As far as common sense is concerned, Thais are all five year olds in adult bodies. 

Absolutely true…my Thai wife is exactly the same…she refuses to continue any conversation that makes mention of taking preparations to avoid some undesired future outcome…such as installing a burglar alarm.  To most Thais, such an idea frightens them as it forces them to consider the notion that something unfavorable might happen to them if they dwell on it too much. We have no motorbikes in our immediate family but the same concept applies: never discuss anything that might eventually happen….because it could very well come true. Good or bad.  

[Mac Mickmanus]

37 minutes ago, jesimps said:

No one here cares. Whenever I try to discuss a road accident with my Thai missus, she refuses to listen and quickly changes the subject. I honestly think it's the karma mentality and that the locals think that if it's their turn, all the safety precautions in the world won't prevent it. It's impossible to convince her that using a cellphone whilst riding a motorbike is dangerous and stupid.

I've said it so many times, but I'll say it again: As far as common sense is concerned, Thais are all five year olds in adult bodies. 

Yes, the attitude seems to be "Whatever is going to happen will happen and theres nothing that you can do about it * , just need to go to a Temple and walk around three times and nothing bad will happen , and ring a bell a few times, just to make sure

[greenmonkey]

1 hour ago, Fore Man said:

I have to relate an experience I underwent a few years ago outside of Chiang Mai. I was driving my Fortuner along a country two-lane highway, directly into a blinding sunset.  About 400 meters before making a left turn into our subdivision’s prominent side gate, I flipped on my turn signal.  Immediately after doing so, I quickly passed by a motorcyclist carrying a passenger on his pillion seat, riding on the shoulder, seemingly oblivious to anyone else out there. A glance in my rear view mirror told me that I had enough time to make my turn before the biker caught up to me. But I was wrong and he smashed into my left front fascia before I’d completed my maneuver, completely failing to take notice of my advanced signaling. His bike was badly damaged plus his passenger suffered a broken leg. 
 

My first thought was, why didn’t he heed my turn signal and rear brake lights, as I’d given him ample time to prepare to either slow down or pass me on my right side?  When the police investigated at the scene, they explained that it was I who violated the law…that all motorcyclists and bicyclists are entitled to an unimpeded right of way when riding on the shoulder…which is considered under Thai traffic law to be a special bike lane, even though it is unmarked as such.  They went on to say that all other vehicular traffic must yield to any two-wheeled vehicles that could be jeopardized by such a turning maneuver.  
 

This was all news to me.  I’d lived in Thailand and in that same Chiang Mai area for 15 years at that point and this came as a total shock…that we must yield to any motorcycles driving on the shoulder. In the end we settled out of court, paying him a pittance of the outrageous amount he tried to extort from us. And indeed I learned a hard lesson. 
 

I realized that this incident probably would not have occurred if we weren’t both driving into a glaring setting sun, but I still found it hard to swallow that the motorcyclist had no culpability in causing the mishap and resolutely kept driving along the shoulder when I’d already indicated my intention to turn and began braking well beforehand.  Anybody with a shred of common sense would be expected to show some natural concern for self-preservation, but apparently this isn’t so in Thailand…where idiots can operate a motor vehicle without a shred of training, and likely with no accompanying license testing…nor with any common sense either.

Interesting to know this law that motorcyclists have the right of way... it is an issue I have narrowly avoided once or twice in the past. OP did you do any digging to find out if it is actually the law or were the police just trying to pin this on you!? Would really like to get clarification on this as don't want to get caught out like the OP did.... can someone please confirm? TIA

[Lingba]

dont question the roads..question the drivers

 

[Fore Man]

24 minutes ago, greenmonkey said:

Interesting to know this law that motorcyclists have the right of way... it is an issue I have narrowly avoided once or twice in the past. OP did you do any digging to find out if it is actually the law or were the police just trying to pin this on you!? Would really like to get clarification on this as don't want to get caught out like the OP did.... can someone please confirm? TIA

Yes, we definitely followed up with a higher ranking officer back at the station…as well as my wife’s brother, a RTP lt. colonel who works in a different province. He readily agreed that it was my fault but opined that the law needed to be reconsidered as it was confusing and on occasion transferred culpability to the wrong party. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Fore Man

[Flink]

7 hours ago, EricTh said:

I see a lot of Thai people talking on the phone while riding their motorbike. Furthermore, they don't even wear helmets.

 

This is asking for disaster to happen. Isn't there basic education of road safety in Thailand?

 

How did they even get a driving licence in the first place?

And, as far as the helmets are concerned, it's not as if many of them don't know it is a legal requirement (though rarely, if ever, enforced by the police) but their attitude is "I have a helmet, see, there it is hanging on the handlebars. What? You expect me to wear it on my head pulled down and with the strap done up? Can't I just perch it on top of my head? No? So how am I meant to use my phone when doing 50mph along the street?"

[The Theory]

11 hours ago, webfact said:

The questions this accident raises are many.

Never ending story. 

[MikeN]

Last week I was in the narrow rural soi out the front of our place when i saw a girl of about 15 coming home from school on her scooter, she had her phone in hand in  front of her face so either taking a selfie or reading a text. Hit a pothole a few meters behind me and lost control, luckily she went right and into a flooded rice paddy and not left into a brick wall. She was n't hurt but worried about her phone somewhere in the rice paddy.

[BusyB]

7 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

I believe there are other countries in the world where 14 year-olds are allowed to ride. Eg, Belgium 

Perhaps, I'll take your word for it. I can't be bothered to compare the statistics or conditions (max power/speed for instance) so perhaps there could be a lesson for Thailand there. But I still think it's mad - motor bike riding is also about maturity and judgement, neither of which are well developed in pubing 14 year olds.

[RobU]

12 hours ago, scorecard said:

When my Thai son was old enough to get his license he said he had noticed a driving school 10 minutes walk from our condo. I had already offered to teach him to drive but he was keen to go to a professional driving school.

 

He had already found and bought a book of 'Thai Rules of the Road' in both Thai and English. He asked for my comment on the book, I scanned it, (about 20 pages, mostly quite nicely drawn graphics). I was impressed.

 

I suggested he go to the driving school and make enquiries, he did that and announced he would start the next day.

 

Following morning he went to the school, paid for all the lessons, and he quickly discovered the 'manager' he had spoken to the previous day was the only instructor and wasn't all that pleasant.

 

The 'instructor' told my son to get in and back the vehicle out of the compound and onto the outside road. Outside road was 2 lanes only, one way and always a large volume of traffic. This was quite some distance in the yard and between several other vehicles with very little gap between the vehicles, and piles of boxes etc.. The vehicle was an old, big, dirty pick up with the engine continously stopping.

 

Son said 'I've never driven a car before or had any instruction before', which prompted much yelling from the instructor about 'try, try', but with zero instruction.

 

Son got out of the vehicle, and then asked 'are you going to teach me the rules of the road?' Response: 'No this is a driving school and there are no rules of the road so how can I teach you the rules of the road'.

 

Son produced the book of 'The Thai Rules of the Road'. Instructor claimed it was fake and then insisted on my son backing the vehicle out.

 

Son walked out and came home quickly and shared his bad  experience and was quite upset.

 

I then offered again to teach him to drive, to explain the basics of what the pedals actually do, how the brakes work etc., etc., and to spend some hours together to study the rules of the road, best driving behaviors, what / situations to be careful etc.

 

He was a good student and grew keen to ask many questions about how the car worked etc. I encouraged his questions and made sure he always felt comfortable, no yelling or impatience from me ever.

 

About 3 months later he went for the test and got his license. 

You are so right about being patient and calm. In the mid 70's a friend of mine tried to teach his girlfriend to drive, he started getting more impatient with her at each 'lesson' and finally yelled at her to "move out!" at a T junction. He panicked her so much that she drove the car straight across the road and into the lampost on the opposite side. Fortunately both wearing seatbelts. The car was a Lotus Cortina which was quite an expensive car and of course is now a classic very expensive to repair. Karma was a real B**ch that day

[hotchilli]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

What does it say about road safety education if they are driving a vehicle - and a motorcycle at that - while on the phone?

An everyday occurrence here in Thailand.

[hotchilli]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

Do the politicians even care?

History proves the answer to be NO

[Zack61]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

Should the police be on the lookout for transgressions and doing something to enforce traffic laws?

 

Should their supposed masters - the politicians - be doing more to ensure the RTP enforce the law?

 

Do the politicians even care?

1. That would mean having to do something 

2. Yes

3. No

[Orinoco]

11 hours ago, Fore Man said:

I have to relate an experience I underwent a few years ago outside of Chiang Mai. I was driving my Fortuner along a country two-lane highway, directly into a blinding sunset.  About 400 meters before making a left turn into our subdivision’s prominent side gate, I flipped on my turn signal.  Immediately after doing so, I quickly passed by a motorcyclist carrying a passenger on his pillion seat, riding on the shoulder, seemingly oblivious to anyone else out there. A glance in my rear view mirror told me that I had enough time to make my turn before the biker caught up to me. But I was wrong and he smashed into my left front fascia before I’d completed my maneuver, completely failing to take notice of my advanced signaling. His bike was badly damaged plus his passenger suffered a broken leg. 
 

My first thought was, why didn’t he heed my turn signal and rear brake lights, as I’d given him ample time to prepare to either slow down or pass me on my right side?  When the police investigated at the scene, they explained that it was I who violated the law…that all motorcyclists and bicyclists are entitled to an unimpeded right of way when riding on the shoulder…which is considered under Thai traffic law to be a special bike lane, even though it is unmarked as such.  They went on to say that all other vehicular traffic must yield to any two-wheeled vehicles that could be jeopardized by such a turning maneuver.  
 

This was all news to me.  I’d lived in Thailand and in that same Chiang Mai area for 15 years at that point and this came as a total shock…that we must yield to any motorcycles driving on the shoulder. In the end we settled out of court, paying him a pittance of the outrageous amount he tried to extort from us. And indeed I learned a hard lesson. 
 

I realized that this incident probably would not have occurred if we weren’t both driving into a glaring setting sun, but I still found it hard to swallow that the motorcyclist had no culpability in causing the mishap and resolutely kept driving along the shoulder when I’d already indicated my intention to turn and began braking well beforehand.  Anybody with a shred of common sense would be expected to show some natural concern for self-preservation, but apparently this isn’t so in Thailand…where idiots can operate a motor vehicle without a shred of training, and likely with no accompanying license testing…nor with any common sense either.

No disrespect.

But, reading your post, you cut the guy off.

You expected him to change his speed to allow you to turn directly in front of him. crossing his carriageway.

resulting in him,  hitting your vehicle.

You were impatient and wrong.

Amazing.

 

 

[starky]

14 hours ago, seajae said:

I grew up in a poor family after our dad died after spending many years in hospital, the best food we got to eat was the left overs from the saturday night function hall where our mum had a third job, most of our clothes were second hand or hand me downs too. We had very little, school was a 45 minute walk or we could ride our bikes(second hand) there, any other travel was by bus after walking 10 minutes to the closest bus stop but we did it. The problem here in Thailand is a lot of people are just plain lazy and refuse to walk any distance, you only have to see how many double park blocking roads to go into a shop when they could park properly 10 metres away and walk back. If thai kids road bicycles there would be a lot less deaths of young riders too but again they refuse to do so even though bicycles are a lot cheaper than motorbikes/scooters and its down to being lazy & loss of face. The amount of idiot riders on that roads is over the top and most of them are to young to have a licence and shouldnt even be riding them but parents just dont care and neither do the police, it has nothing to do with being dirt poor.

Yeah? Well when I were a lad we rode pushies and trail bikes with zero protective gear we ran in the streets played with bb guns and fireworks played tackle footy on concrete blah blah fixing blah. So what? ????????????????????

[starky]

14 hours ago, scorecard said:

Hey slow down.

 

I had no intention whatever to impose anything on anybody, I just shared one disgraceful experience, for a specific obvious reason, I made no mention about the cost or ability to afford.

 

As above I am well aware that a very large % of the population wouldn't be able to afford a driving school, some very probably don't even know that driving schools exist.

 

There's also the point that driving and the rules of the road should be compulsory in primary and high school. There's also the point that many parents are well capable of teaching their kids to drive (regardless of their income). And this would be enhanced by kids having well produced materials from schools. 

 

I well understand that many many poor families rely on an old scooter to get their kids to school and to carry out the daily chores for survival. 

Thank you for your response. And for taking it in the context in which it was presented. If most exchanges on this forum were in this format it would be a nicer place to be. Ironically you were the only person who quoted me that had anything reasonable to say most when straight on the attack. I appreciate your points and agree. 

[starky]

15 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Spare MB & phones ... far from dirt poor.

 

You can be poor & uneducated, that's no excuse for stupid & irresponsible.

How do you know it was spare? How do you know the phone was bought by her? Do you know the price of a basic phone in Thailand? Do you think poor people shouldn't have access to them. Thanks for further proving my point. 

 Zero clue.

 The <deleted> I did as a kid was outrageous should have got me killed many times over lost a few friends along the way. 

What were you born 60?

Edited July 26, 2022 by starky

[Fore Man]

1 hour ago, Orinoco said:

No disrespect.

But, reading your post, you cut the guy off.

You expected him to change his speed to allow you to turn directly in front of him. crossing his carriageway.

resulting in him,  hitting your vehicle.

You were impatient and wrong.

Amazing.

 

 

I actually agree with you, in that according to Thai law I was wrong. But what I learned, stupendously, was that motorcyclists have special protection as long as they remain on the shoulder.  They can act with a certain righteous impunity and be morally right, but tragically wrong if injured…or worse. It’s time for these people to grow up, for far tougher traffic laws to be enacted and for violators to be swiftly punished. Until then, this country will continue to rank high among those rated as the most dangerous places to drive. 

[Nicholas Paul KNIGHT]

There are sadly no answers to these questions. The reasons are myriad. Law Enforcement, Parental Control, Culture, Religion, you can point your fingers at any one of those four and be right.

Thai Society generally does not care and neither does the Government, but really any LAW passed will be ignored by the majority, that is noirmal practice.

 

I remember something I read 21 years ago in a major publication about Thai Roads and its traffic:

 

Thai drivers will find a way to circumnavigate all LAWS they do not like and that has got worse as traffic has increased and sadly after two decades here I have found that applies to all Government departments including the Police. It is endemic and now beyond control.