Should teachers hit students? Case highlights teacher/student/parent relationships in Thailand

[Gecko123]

5 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

Clearly never been in classroom.

Actually I think it should be abundantly obvious to anyone who read my post that I've spent enormous amounts of time in classrooms.

[klauskunkel]

Quote

Should teachers hit students?

only in self defense

[kingstonkid]

Here is the problem and yes I taught Matayom and dealt with this.

 

Some students have no reason to behave.

 

They know that no matter what they learn or do not learn they will pass.

Most mom's and Dads do not want to know what goes on at the schools

Other than yelling at their kids  if they (the parents) lose face they do nothing

Thai teachers are not equipped to hand out punicshment because it isnot taught.

You can not use any of the punishments that we have/had in Canada you can not keep them after school, you can not give them extra homework, if you single them out it is a positive for them not a negative

The threat or possibility of getting wacked is the biggest deterrent.

A school I taught at had a simple solution in the English Department we had Khun X.   While also being a great teacher and knowing her stuff she was the disciplinarian of the department.  2 things the kids did not like was 

a. being told to go see her

or 

b a student being asked to go and get her to come to the class.

She was known as fair but not someone you wanted to be on the bad side of.

 

To me the detterent that is needed is to have an assitant director or senior teacher responsible for punishment.  This person can punish by having the student suspended and only allowed back into the school once the parents have talked to him/her

meeting with parents to outline that continued incidents can mean the child is removed form the school

detention sorry you missed our van

corporal punishment.

 

The idea that international schools do not deal with this is as stated.  The parents pay through the nose for the kids to go there and the kids know that if they screw up mom and ad will kill them

Also, international schools have the ability to fail a student.

[The Hammer2021]

No humans should be sanctioned to hit children.  It corrupts that person.

[Gecko123]

3 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

Here is the problem and yes I taught Matayom and dealt with this.

 

Some students have no reason to behave.

 

They know that no matter what they learn or do not learn they will pass.

Most mom's and Dads do not want to know what goes on at the schools

Other than yelling at their kids  if they (the parents) lose face they do nothing

Thai teachers are not equipped to hand out punicshment because it isnot taught.

You can not use any of the punishments that we have/had in Canada you can not keep them after school, you can not give them extra homework, if you single them out it is a positive for them not a negative

The threat or possibility of getting wacked is the biggest deterrent.

A school I taught at had a simple solution in the English Department we had Khun X.   While also being a great teacher and knowing her stuff she was the disciplinarian of the department.  2 things the kids did not like was 

a. being told to go see her

or 

b a student being asked to go and get her to come to the class.

She was known as fair but not someone you wanted to be on the bad side of.

 

To me the detterent that is needed is to have an assitant director or senior teacher responsible for punishment.  This person can punish by having the student suspended and only allowed back into the school once the parents have talked to him/her

meeting with parents to outline that continued incidents can mean the child is removed form the school

detention sorry you missed our van

corporal punishment.

 

The idea that international schools do not deal with this is as stated.  The parents pay through the nose for the kids to go there and the kids know that if they screw up mom and ad will kill them

Also, international schools have the ability to fail a student.

 

Bingo!

 

[cnx101]

3 hours ago, JoePai said:

Never did me any harm - with a cane across my finger tips (ouch) and blackboard rubbers being launched with the precision of a guided missile to ones head

Also it was fairly regular with me and lots of other guys in the same class, from age 5 to 15 when I got kicked out altogether haha

[Thunglom]

26 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

Actually I think it should be abundantly obvious to anyone who read my post that I've spent enormous amounts of time in classrooms.

As a student? - You clearly shouldn't be allowed in as a teacher!

[vandeventer]

4 hours ago, Geoffggi said:

To some degree I agree with this statement, however, if the parents do not educate and discipline the said students at home the teachers are on a sticky wicket so to speak.

The trouble with Thai parents is they don't teach the kids discipline when they are young so when they get older they get more and more out of control.  

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

These self-satisfied international school teachers need to climb down off their high horses. They're almost always teaching kids from high-income two parent households. The parents provide strong role models and reinforce the value of education for their kids. Going to a school where all the other students are similarly motivated provides additional reinforcement of these values. Parents attend parent-teacher conferences and monitor their child's academic progress closely. Another factor is that these affluent families have on average fewer children, so they are able to devote more attention and resources to the children they have. Teaching at such a school is a cakewalk compared to what teachers in rural and other disadvantaged areas have to go through.

 

These teachers are trying to teach kids who rarely have two parents living in the household. Most are lucky if they have just one parent, as many are raised without either of their biological parents in the household. I was told once by the principal of my school that 40% of the kids at the school were in households without either biological parent present. The parent or guardian caring for the child often does not appreciate the value of education. In some farming households, education is not encouraged because the parents want the child to continue working the farm after the parents are too old to do so themselves. Then there is the issue of poverty which impacts nutrition, clothing, school supplies, and many other aspects of child development.

My son goes to a top international school in Thailand - I agree with everything you have written. 

That said, teachers at the top international schools are also under the microscope, high standards are expected and their performance as teachers is monitored closely.

 

I also consider it my role as a parent to ensure that my son understands the standards expected of him while at the same time giving him the freedom to make his own informed and educated choices. 

 

2 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

 

Because of all of this, these teachers are often forced to juggle the nurturing role of mother, the disciplinarian role of a father, and still teach. These international school teachers may see themselves as academic elites, but I'll bet they'd be tearing their hair out by the fistful or whacking kids left and right if they ever found themselves having to teach under similarly challenging conditions.

I know a number of teachers at International schools here, some at the top International Schools, some at Mid-range international schools and some at Schools I’ve never heard of.

The standards of those individuals differ, those at the top schools are rarely joining late for a beer after football on weeknight, whereas we see those at the ‘lower-tiered’ schools often staying late and calling in sick the next day etc.... the behaviour is notable. 

 

To a T, all the teachers I know who work at reputable internationals schools here find the actual job of teaching in a classroom far easier here than in the UK where discipline is often an issue. 

Teachers at the reputable internationals schools here do no need to be disciplinarians for the reasons you [Gecko123] highlight, they can spend quality time actually teaching, they are also provided the tools required that international school fees bring to a school. 

 

 

Are teachers at internationals schools better teachers ?.... (which seems to be something some may allude to as pointed out in your post), no, I don’t think so, but its easier for them to do a better job of ‘educating’.

 

An excellent teacher will be an excellent teacher at whatever school they are at. 

Meanwhile those who are not at the top of their game are likely to find it easier at a renowned international school than at a government school which faces many of the issues you [Gecko123] highlighted. 

 

Teaching is a calling, many are natural born teachers and those who are find little need to discipline children, in many cases their presence and enthusiasm is sufficient. 

 

It seems to the ‘poorer quality’ teachers who lack the skills to engage children and students, they end up resorting to desperate methods because they lack the skills otherwise. 

 

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, JoePai said:

Never did me any harm - with a cane across my finger tips (ouch) and blackboard rubbers being launched with the precision of a guided missile to ones head

The same thing at my school in the 1950s.

 

Nowadays with corporal punishment having been abolished I try to remember what it was like when I was a boy. I don't remember anything like the amount of robberies and street murders back then compared to the modern times of at least one murder a week of, or by school aged children, not to mention the senseless vandalism nowadays.

 

Is there a link between the two?

 

I really don't know.

 

I remember being caught scrumping apples by a policeman and being taken to the owners house, getting clumped by the policemen and thinking how lucky I was not to get another from my Dad.

[worgeordie]

At the Dotheboys hall type school I attended , corporal punishment 

was mandatory , and I am sure sometimes it was warranted  ,6 wacks

across the hand ,or @rse from the kinky teachers ,with a thin bamboo

cane , sure they got off on it .

 

It hurt at the time ,but  did it do me any harm ,I don't think so ,it did not

turn me into serial killer, rapist , bank robber, or wife beater , really

had a good time at school , can even remember all the other boys

names in my class, but only one girl ,she with the big tits.

 

Since corporal punishment in the West has stopped , look what's

happened , kids killing kids ,they have no respect for their elders,

if a policeman caught you doing something not serious,he would

clip your ear or kick you up the @rse , today they would stab or shoot him.....

 

regards worgeordie

 

 

 

 

 

[Gecko123]

I'm not advocating corporal punishment or indiscriminately smacking and cuffing kids about the head and shoulder or whipping them. Everybody knows this should be an absolute last resort. But some of you sanctimonious Mr. Rogers types fingering your hari krishna prayer beads congratulating yourselves on your enlightened parenting philosophies are clueless about the realities of teaching in rural Thai government schools. Edit: @ThunglomI'm  talking about you here. The sad truth is that if you're faced with the task of teaching somebody that has never learned any type of discipline, period, there probably is a role for corporal punishment, and if you strictly prohibit its use, the result is often going to be the complete academic failure of the child.

 

And one other thing: I can tell that a lot of you that are passionately against corporal punishment are speaking from the standpoint of parents. Edit: @ThunglomI'm talking about you again here. I agree that corporal punishment should be rarely if ever used in the home, and it's usually a sign of parenting skill deficiencies when it is used often at home. But you have to remember that a teacher isn't dealing with just one child, they have a whole classroom to contend with. As nice as it is to pretend that there are always other options available, the teacher doesn't always have the luxury of practicing infinite patience, taking time outs, calling parent-teacher conferences, sending the kid to the principal's office, coaxing the child into performing better, or threatening to fail the kid in order to motivate better performance.

[Classic Ray]

2 hours ago, PremiumLane said:

It's a mute question as the Ministry of Education's own guidelines and rules say teachers can't hit students. 

In this case the teachers should be disciplined and/or disbarred if they do this. But when does it ever happen?

[Chad91]

Children should never be hit wether it is for being "naughty" or not,  when I am naughty or i make a mistake nobody hits me so what makes it right to hit a kid ?

 

I had an issue with this where I live, my wifes kid came home saying he was hit at school from his teacher. I then checked the laws in Thailand to confirm (what I already thought I knew) that it was illegal.

 

The next day we went to the school and had a chat with the teacher as to why she had hit him, we told her that it is was unacceptable and if it happens again we will take it further.

 

The teacher's reason was that he had not done his homework, she was apologetic and as far as we are aware it has never happened again.

[newnative]

"Just a slap", says the teacher.  Clearly thinks she could have done much worse if she felt like it--as many of the sub-standard teachers here have done, with all the news reports we've seen.  And, likely, the many unreported.  Give her a warning and if she does it again, sack her.

[billsmart]

A teacher should never hit a student for disciplinary purposes. IMO, the only reason a teacher would be justified in hitting a student is for self-defense, like if the student hit them or pulled a knife on them.

 

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

These self-satisfied international school teachers need to climb down off their high horses. They're almost always teaching kids from high-income two parent households. The parents provide strong role models and reinforce the value of education for their kids. Going to a school where all the other students are similarly motivated provides additional reinforcement of these values. Parents attend parent-teacher conferences and monitor their child's academic progress closely. Another factor is that these affluent families have on average fewer children, so they are able to devote more attention and resources to the children they have. Teaching at such a school is a cakewalk compared to what teachers in rural and other disadvantaged areas have to go through.

 

These teachers are trying to teach kids who rarely have two parents living in the household. Most are lucky if they have just one parent, as many are raised without either of their biological parents in the household. I was told once by the principal of my school that 40% of the kids at the school were in households without either biological parent present. The parent or guardian caring for the child often does not appreciate the value of education. In some farming households, education is not encouraged because the parents want the child to continue working the farm after the parents are too old to do so themselves. Then there is the issue of poverty which impacts nutrition, clothing, school supplies, and many other aspects of child development.

 

Because of all of this, these teachers are often forced to juggle the nurturing role of mother, the disciplinarian role of a father, and still teach. These international school teachers may see themselves as academic elites, but I'll bet they'd be tearing their hair out by the fistful or whacking kids left and right if they ever found themselves having to teach under similarly challenging conditions.

What you overlook is that corporal punishment is banned in nearly all western countries. That includes all schools, and of these, only the private schools and the best government schools would boast the equivalence in student types of Thai international schools. A large number of the government schools would have students very similar in background to the Thai schools you describe but teachers are no more allowed to strike them than teachers in the most exclusive of the elite schools. As an ex teacher, I certainly support the regulations regarding corporal punishment. I have also taught in Thai and Cambodian schools and have never been tempted to strike a student even back in the days when students were routinely strapped. As a student counsellor, I was also aware of the home backgrounds of the more difficult students - getting beatings at home then at school is not what I would recommend to get the best out of a student.

[wandasloan]

5 hours ago, SoilSpoil said:

One of the reasons we are homeschooling our children. I have worked in Thailand as a teacher in the past, and made a promise to myself to never enroll my kids in the fascist Thai education system.

As confusing as "teachers" always are.

You are entirely happy to take money from the fascists of the Thai education system, but not to enrol your precious ones, or to even try to change/fix the fascist  system.

Excellent example of sheer hypocrisy. I hope your beloveds grow up and make you try to explain all that, which you cannot.

 

[DjSilver]

If a Thai teacher would ever hit my kid, no matter what. I would simply hit them back  and of course humiliate them to lose face in front of everyone. But lucky my kid doesn't go to school in Thailand and I would never allow them. Even the so called international schools a re terible with bad curriculum only making the kids more stupid.

[TKDfella]

5 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you can't control kids without hitting them, you shouldn't be a teacher. I discipline my kids without the need to hit them and they will behave. Any teacher who hits my kids will end up in hospital. 

And in Thailand, you could end up in being charged with assault for a violent retaliation. Yeah, sounds like a good strategy for teaching the teachers and children...

[FritsSikkink]

4 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

These self-satisfied international school teachers need to climb down off their high horses. They're almost always teaching kids from high-income two parent households. The parents provide strong role models and reinforce the value of education for their kids. Going to a school where all the other students are similarly motivated provides additional reinforcement of these values. Parents attend parent-teacher conferences and monitor their child's academic progress closely. Another factor is that these affluent families have on average fewer children, so they are able to devote more attention and resources to the children they have. Teaching at such a school is a cakewalk compared to what teachers in rural and other disadvantaged areas have to go through.

 

These teachers are trying to teach kids who rarely have two parents living in the household. Most are lucky if they have just one parent, as many are raised without either of their biological parents in the household. I was told once by the principal of my school that 40% of the kids at the school were in households without either biological parent present. The parent or guardian caring for the child often does not appreciate the value of education. In some farming households, education is not encouraged because the parents want the child to continue working the farm after the parents are too old to do so themselves. Then there is the issue of poverty which impacts nutrition, clothing, school supplies, and many other aspects of child development.

 

Because of all of this, these teachers are often forced to juggle the nurturing role of mother, the disciplinarian role of a father, and still teach. These international school teachers may see themselves as academic elites, but I'll bet they'd be tearing their hair out by the fistful or whacking kids left and right if they ever found themselves having to teach under similarly challenging conditions.

What about rich kids who are used to get everything they want? They might give a teacher more headache than a poor one who sees a teacher as a more influential person.

[FritsSikkink]

6 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

And in Thailand, you could end up in being charged with assault for a violent retaliation. 

I don't care. they would need to prove that i did it first, which won't be easy.

Edited August 9, 2022 by FritsSikkink

[HappyExpat57]

I always get another student to hit the errant student. It's a joke, only a pretend slap on the shoulder is given, and we all know it, but attention is brought to the bad behavior. It lightens the mood and the bad student stops doing whatever they were doing.

Edited August 9, 2022 by HappyExpat57

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, wandasloan said:

6 hours ago, SoilSpoil said:

One of the reasons we are homeschooling our children. I have worked in Thailand as a teacher in the past, and made a promise to myself to never enroll my kids in the fascist Thai education system.

As confusing as "teachers" always are.

You are entirely happy to take money from the fascists of the Thai education system, but not to enrol your precious ones, or to even try to change/fix the fascist  system.

Excellent example of sheer hypocrisy. I hope your beloveds grow up and make you try to explain all that, which you cannot.

 

He [SoilSpoil] cannot change the system he can only improve his lot. 

Its not hypocritical at all that he has worked in the Thai Governments schools, recognises their flaws and instead chooses to home school his child.

 

It could be argued that this is an extremely sensible thing to do. 

 

Hopefully SoilSpoil's child will grow up with a decent enough education that he doesn’t embarrass himself and jump to such sanctimonious and pathetic judgements that you have just made !!!! 

[Thunglom]

2 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

I'm not advocating corporal punishment or indiscriminately smacking and cuffing kids about the head and shoulder or whipping them. Everybody knows this should be an absolute last resort. But some of you sanctimonious Mr. Rogers types fingering your hari krishna prayer beads congratulating yourselves on your enlightened parenting philosophies are clueless about the realities of teaching in rural Thai government schools. Edit: @ThunglomI'm  talking about you here. The sad truth is that if you're faced with the task of teaching somebody that has never learned any type of discipline, period, there probably is a role for corporal punishment, and if you strictly prohibit its use, the result is often going to be the complete academic failure of the child.

 

And one other thing: I can tell that a lot of you that are passionately against corporal punishment are speaking from the standpoint of parents. Edit: @ThunglomI'm talking about you again here. I agree that corporal punishment should be rarely if ever used in the home, and it's usually a sign of parenting skill deficiencies when it is used often at home. But you have to remember that a teacher isn't dealing with just one child, they have a whole classroom to contend with. As nice as it is to pretend that there are always other options available, the teacher doesn't always have the luxury of practicing infinite patience, taking time outs, calling parent-teacher conferences, sending the kid to the principal's office, coaxing the child into performing better, or threatening to fail the kid in order to motivate better performance.

So you are admitting to your flawed classroom skills - you are. danger to the children and really the police should be informed

[jingjai9]

A teacher should be allowed to hit a child only if it is in self defense. The conventional wisdom seems to be that violence by teachers in a classroom sets a bad example and can teach children that violence is a viable solution for solving problems.

 

Some people on this forum recalled their own experiences being hit in school and reported that it never did them any harm. Does that make corporal punishment OK? Every time a teacher hits a student there is the risk of injury.

 

 

[Moo 2]

6 hours ago, Geoffggi said:

To some degree I agree with this statement, however, if the parents do not educate and discipline the said students at home the teachers are on a sticky wicket so to speak.

 

4 hours ago, seajae said:

only if the parent is allowed to hit the teacher back when they find out, no teacher should ever hit a student, it is assault

Who is responsible for the child's behavior? The parents of course, nobody else! 

[richard_smith237]

27 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

What about rich kids who are used to get everything they want? They might give a teacher more headache than a poor one who sees a teacher as a more influential person.

I suspect that is always a possibility, but one a good school and teacher has experience of and can deal with.

 

At my sons school there are kids who are from overwhelmingly wealthy backgrounds... Family backgrounds many of you on this forum will have heard of... Owners of Major Shopping Malls and huge companies....   

 

Some of these children are undoubtedly spoiled at home, we’ve been away on holidays with some of these families. There is a range in how the children are treated by the parents...  some parents simply give the child everything they want, give into their every whim... whereas other parents are clearly more responsible and are grounding their children as much as possible. 

 

For the most part, the kids are lovely, even the ones who are completely spoiled by their parents - usually when they are that spoiled they are only behaving like this at home. Good teachers set their own standard in the class room, the children know this. 

 

Obviously as the children age and they realise the power their extremely wealthy parents have and they may attempt to flex - however, a good school will not worry about dealing with this. 

 

The top schools can be selective - there are waiting lists. Some extremely wealthy and powerful families are waiting for a couple of years to get their children into their preferred school. The parents had to fight and wait to get their children in the school... they will not wish to compromise this position with their child misbehaving. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

11 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

So you are admitting to your flawed classroom skills - you are. danger to the children and really the police should be informed

No thats what he’s written or implying at all - he is recognising that the issue may not be as black and white as many of us like to believe. We are after all dealing with an imperfect system that doesn’t suit every child. 

 

Given your response it can be interpreted that your reading comprehension has suffered...  did your school fail you ????

 

 

 

[Autonuaq]

when you are a teacher and understand your profession you not need to hit any child or parent. there is the respect needed to be able to transfer knowledge and educate.

 

I have been hit as an eight year old child by a teachers a few times. After the third time i hit back the teacher.  Hit the teacher hard enough and on the 'sweet spot' to fell down and grasp for air a few minutes. This made then teacher aware to never hit a child again.

Later when I was 15 years another teacher had the same kind of lose hands. being a bit older after the first hit I warned this teacher not touch me again or any one else.  The teacher laugh me out in the face and told he was totally not impressed.. Then started to  his lesson to 'teach me', long story short the teacher ended up in the hospital. 

and later avoided all touching and contact with students.

 

when a teacher is a professional the teacher not need to hit or do things like that at all.  In all the years I have trained people and teach all that was needed them just change of posture and the right way of approach makes all stop.

 

slapping or hitting is totally not needed in a professional student teacher relation. just as it is not needed in other professions.

 

all is show the person is not qualified for the job, in this case the job to teach.