Punishment in school what would you do

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

Hammer I am not suggesting that abusing a child is correct and most people are not looking to abuse a student.

 

What you are being asked is how would you manage a class as outlined.

It's very easy, you remove the problem pupils from the classroom.

And if they won't leave , you contact management to remove them from the classroom.

 

Failing management removing them from the classroom, you do as @simon43 says and remove yourself from the classroom and the school.

[CashMoon]

We see Generation Z. Other generations will be much more anarchist than these naughty ones. 

[Gecko123]

Would like to gently point out that all of the solutions proposed on this thread have drawbacks of one form or another:

 

1. (probably the best idea) Invade the space of the kids in the back of the room in order to get their attention and disrupt their activity. Drawback: kids up front lose focus and the rhythm of the lesson is disrupted.

 

2. Negotiate with the kids in the back of the room by allowing them to do whatever they want as long as they don't disrupt the class. Drawback: effectively abandons the goal of engaging them academically. Sends the message to the rest of the class that academic performance and effort is optional.

 

3. Throw them out of the class. Drawback: they may never come back, and when they do, they'll tell you, 'hey, you told us you didn't want us in class.' Undermines your moral commitment to their education.

 

4. Walk off the job if you don't get the administrative support you need. Drawback: completely disrupts the educational momentum of the entire class, including the kids who were fully engaged.

 

5. Use verbal methods to control the kids: cajoling, rewarding, threats, humiliation, shaming, ostracizing, bullying. Drawback: Can be more detrimental to the child's self-esteem and development than corporal punishment.

 

6. Enlist the help of home room teacher, principal, and parents to reinforce discipline. Drawback/limitations: That type of support is non-existent at many schools. They might come to your rescue on occasion, but if it's a chronic problem, you're on your own. Parental support is rarely an option.

 

7. Be such a wonderful and captivating instructor that the kids will eagerly look forward to your class, hang on your every word, complete every homework assignment, beg for extra credit assignments, applaud you after every lesson, and get perfect scores on all the tests. Wouldn't that be nice!

 

I'm not, as some have probably concluded, an advocate of corporal punishment. Yesterday evening I tried to think back if I had ever hit a child in any of my classes, and I couldn't really recall any instance. I think I spotted an M5 student once who should have been in class lounging around in the hallway and shoved him on the shoulder back into class. On occasion I would use my thumbnail to apply pressure to the sensitive skin above a misbehaving kid's fingernail and give him a knowing 'I mean business' look. I never whipped, spanked, slapped, punched a kid, ever.

 

But I very much sympathize with the occasional teacher 'caught on camera' engaging in less egregious forms of corporal punishment because I know the challenges they are faced with, and I also know that, more often than not, the alternative is complete capitulation and just going through the motions, and I don't believe that's preferable (from the student's standpoint) to the occasional judicious use of corporal punishment as a disciplinary tool. I believe that many of these teachers 'caught on camera' are actually some of the more dedicated and committed teachers in the school. Many teachers who will never find themselves being shamed on the 5 o'clock local news are just going through the motions and are comparatively disengaged from the students. I also know that the parent-student-teacher model for reinforcing academic values simply doesn't exist in many rural and underprivileged areas, and teachers are forced to step into a parenting role which does include teaching the child discipline.

[richard_smith237]

19 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

You are teaching a class of 35 teens Matayom 3.  The class has 10 kids at the front trying to understand and wanting to learn. But there are a group of 6 students playing a videogame and they are loud and drowning out anything you may be saying causing you not to focus or the kids that want to learn to understand you.

Rule 1 parents don't care

Rule 2 asking them to be quiet Wil get you a look and them carrying on

Rule 3 you can't take the phones away voluntarily.

 

Rule 4 TEACHER are ???? allowed to play.

Phones handed in at the beginning of the class.

No phone handed in, no entry to the class.

If kids misbehave, they can collect their phone from the head-teacher at the end of the day. 

 

 

Now the real issue with this thread....   its a ‘what if’ hypothetical scenario... and the issue with these ‘what if’ scenarios is that they can be debated, discussed and argued until the end of time.

 

The reality is, each situation is different and needs to be handled individually.

 

The situation above does not warrant physical violence towards any of the 6 boys - a good teach will identify and resolve many issues way before they ever become issues. 

 

In this case, the good teach would already have these boys sitting apart from each other. 

The phones would be in a desk at the front.

 

------------

 

At my sons school the children are not allowed phones in school until (I think) 12 years old. 

They can have smart watches, but are not allowed to take calls on them in class-room time. 

After 12 (I think) children can have phones, but they remain in the child's school bag, they cannot use the phone in class time. 

 

IF any of these rules are broken, the phone is removed from the child and handed directly to a parent., or for older children who are making their way home, collected from the head of year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Hammer2021]

9 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

No, what I am doing is putting the shoe on the other foot.  On all threads about corporal punishment, people say that anyone that touches is a beast and is abusing BUT none of them give a solution or have had to deal with a class or group of rowdy students.

 

As I have stated I am a firm believer in schools having a teacher that is responsible for discipline that looks after students and resolves issues.

I gave several solutions. But I am surprised that you claim to be teacher and apparently you teacher training involved  learning about the physical  abuse of children. If your teacher training  did not involve violence  against children why are you bringing this to the classroom?

[youreavinalaff]

9 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I gave several solutions. But I am surprised that you claim to be teacher and apparently you teacher training involved  learning about the physical  abuse of children. If your teacher training  did not involve violence  against children why are you bringing this to the classroom?

I can't see any connection between the post you quoted and your reply. You appear to be putting words into people's mouths to try and make your point more relevant.

 

During my school years corporal punishment was allowed. I both witnessed it and experienced it. Speaking from experience, I disagree with most of what you have said on this thread.

[HappyExpat57]

14 hours ago, it is what it is said:

 

any qualified and experienced teacher worth their salt is adept at basic classroom management. if you are unable to manage a difficult class/students perhaps you should consider a different profession/career.

The students can sense it immediately. There's that "thing" a teacher just has and it comes with experience. A good teacher needs to get it quick, fast and in a hurry or find another line of living.

[n00dle]

10 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

'Do your parents know you watch gay porn?'  That would probably solve the problem.  Pretty much anything that would cause them embarrassment would do it.  

Gee Scoot, do your parents know you are tempted to talk to kids about gay porn?

[BonMot]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

It's very easy, you remove the problem pupils from the classroom.

And if they won't leave , you contact management to remove them from the classroom.

 

Failing management removing them from the classroom, you do as @simon43 says and remove yourself from the classroom and the school.

Lol. You can't remove students from a classroom.

[BonMot]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Phones handed in at the beginning of the class.

No phone handed in, no entry to the class.

If kids misbehave, they can collect their phone from the head-teacher at the end of the day. 

 

 

Now the real issue with this thread....   its a ‘what if’ hypothetical scenario... and the issue with these ‘what if’ scenarios is that they can be debated, discussed and argued until the end of time.

 

The reality is, each situation is different and needs to be handled individually.

 

The situation above does not warrant physical violence towards any of the 6 boys - a good teach will identify and resolve many issues way before they ever become issues. 

 

In this case, the good teach would already have these boys sitting apart from each other. 

The phones would be in a desk at the front.

 

------------

 

At my sons school the children are not allowed phones in school until (I think) 12 years old. 

They can have smart watches, but are not allowed to take calls on them in class-room time. 

After 12 (I think) children can have phones, but they remain in the child's school bag, they cannot use the phone in class time. 

 

IF any of these rules are broken, the phone is removed from the child and handed directly to a parent., or for older children who are making their way home, collected from the head of year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many schools do not want you to take the property of students. Once taken you are also responsible for it.

 

What if you return a broken Nokia phone to a student only to him him say thats not my phone. I have a new Samsung Galaxy!

 

What if students sneak sime phones away while you are writing on the blackboard or sorting out the kids in the back?

 

Hey...you stole my phone!

 

You're gone pal. Like a flash.

[BangkokReady]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

I can't see any connection between the post you quoted and your reply. You appear to be putting words into people's mouths to try and make your point more relevant.

Precisely.  One of several users who like to try and twist things and label them with a generic word to make them sound like the worst possible meaning of that word.

 

They won't refer to it as "corporal punishment" or "a ruler across the knuckles".  It has to be "abuse" and "violence".

 

Quite tedious to read and really contributes nothing to any discussion.  All they really want to do is silence people and disrupt any meaningful conversation.

[The Hammer2021]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

I can't see any connection between the post you quoted and your reply. You appear to be putting words into people's mouths to try and make your point more relevant.

 

During my school years corporal punishment was allowed. I both witnessed it and experienced it. Speaking from experience, I disagree with most of what you have said on this thread.

Corporal punishment  used  to be allowed. So did slavery,  so did sending children up chimneys. All manner of cruelty existed in the  past. That does not  make it right, moral or ethical  now. Only the the mentally sick think hit children  is acceptable. Do you as an adult thunk I should  hit you? No of course not.  How can it possibly be acceptable  to beat children  if you won't accept  being beaten yourself? Because children can be bullied because they are smaller  and weaker. If you best children you will normalise violence and you  are a case in point. You want to spread  the violence  you experienced as a child. Well I don't. The caning, whipping and strapping of little boys and girls hides a mess of perversion. When your teacher beat your little boy  bottom how do you know he didn't have an erection?

BDSM, sado masochist sex, the use of canes and whips in sex - where do you think  it comes from?

Its not just an issue of sex but why should an adult  be brutalised into hurting children? Because  this  is what you  propose  that I as a teacher should HURT and scare a child. Sorry mate. I DONT HURT CHILDREN. BECAUSE  ITS WRONG. . I have worked in schools in South  London,  Asia and the Middle  East and hurting children  was never part of my job.

[youreavinalaff]

27 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Precisely.  One of several users who like to try and twist things and label them with a generic word to make them sound like the worst possible meaning of that word.

 

They won't refer to it as "corporal punishment" or "a ruler across the knuckles".  It has to be "abuse" and "violence".

 

Quite tedious to read and really contributes nothing to any discussion.  All they really want to do is silence people and disrupt any meaningful conversation.

Read his latest contribution. Comical at best.

[richard_smith237]

53 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Many schools do not want you to take the property of students. Once taken you are also responsible for it.

 

What if you return a broken Nokia phone to a student only to him him say thats not my phone. I have a new Samsung Galaxy!

 

What if students sneak sime phones away while you are writing on the blackboard or sorting out the kids in the back?

 

Hey...you stole my phone!

 

You're gone pal. Like a flash.

 

What if solution to your what if response to the what if scenario... 

 

Parents are informed that children bring phones to school at their own risk. 

Phones will be handed in at the beginning of a class. 

Phones will have the students name labelled on it. 

Teachers and the school are not responsible for any damage or loss to phones which are brought to school entirely at the owners risk.

 

 

Too many scenarios, it gets silly.

 

Ultimately, a good school and good teachers will have a handle on this. 

The schools that are unable to handle this situation already have bigger issues than a group of kids using their phone in class. 

 

 

 

[HappyExpat57]

1 hour ago, BonMot said:

Lol. You can't remove students from a classroom.

I used to send them out to the hallway where I could still see them from the front of the classroom. Occasionally a high level Thai admin would see them, ask them me why they were there, then proceed to give that student a royal a$$ chewing.

[The Hammer2021]

42 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Read his latest contribution. Comical at best.

Trying to pretend physica violence is something different  by labelling corporal  punishment does not make  it less violent or more moral. Its just hypocritical.  As for damaging  attacks on on bones in the hands ' a rap  across the Knuckles ' that's cruel and dangerous. Children's bones are still  forming and to attack  them with the intention of causing pain is repellent.

If you as an adult are prepared to hit in face, head or ears or prepared to have your  hands hit with a sharp piece of wood then be quiet. You have zero moral authority  to attack children  with weapons  or with your  bare hands. Only a bully would  want to. Many people who brutalised and beaten had their spirits broken and came to  accept cruelty as normal and they are the bullies who want payback and the  right  to hurt  children but not me. The physical  abuse of children is not the job of a teacher. Only  a failure as a teacher and as  a human being would deliberately  inflict  pain on a child in an effort  to control them. I have worked in schools in South  London,  Burma, Thailand, Libya, Kuwait  and NEVER would the physical  abuse,  hitting, spanking, strapping or caning of little boys or girls  on their hands or buttocks be allowed. 

[BangkokReady]

2 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

As for damaging  attacks on on bones in the hands ' a rap  across the Knuckles ' that's cruel and dangerous. Children's bones are still  forming and to attack  them with the intention of causing pain is repellent.

They wouldn't be damaging attacks and wouldn't threaten the integrity of a child's bones.  Again, you're just making it up to try and make it sound worse.  Pure fantasy and completely ridiculous.

[coolcarer]

Pretty simple, if you live in a country or state where corporal punishment is illegal then it would be officially classified as assault. A child, young person or adolescent have a right not to be hit, they also have a human right to self defense.

 

This is without going even going into the longer term effects of violence on young people.

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Trying to pretend physica violence is something different  by labelling corporal  punishment does not make  it less violent or more moral. Its just hypocritical.  As for damaging  attacks on on bones in the hands ' a rap  across the Knuckles ' that's cruel and dangerous. Children's bones are still  forming and to attack  them with the intention of causing pain is repellent.

If you as an adult are prepared to hit in face, head or ears or prepared to have your  hands hit with a sharp piece of wood then be quiet. You have zero moral authority  to attack children  with weapons  or with your  bare hands. Only a bully would  want to. Many people who brutalised and beaten had their spirits broken and came to  accept cruelty as normal and they are the bullies who want payback and the  right  to hurt  children but not me. The physical  abuse of children is not the job of a teacher. Only  a failure as a teacher and as  a human being would deliberately  inflict  pain on a child in an effort  to control them. I have worked in schools in South  London,  Burma, Thailand, Libya, Kuwait  and NEVER would the physical  abuse,  hitting, spanking, strapping or caning of little boys or girls  on their hands or buttocks be allowed. 

I think the points you make are highly valid, but your argument loses credibility with your ridiculous exaggeration about ‘damaging attacks’...

 

I disagree with any form of physical punishment of children in schools, I’d also like to see the debate / argument won from a balanced perspective without the exaggeration and overstatement.

 

 

[Boomer6969]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:02 PM, kingstonkid said:

But there are a group of 6 students playing a videogame and they are loud and drowning out anything you may be saying causing you not to focus or the kids that want to learn to understand you.

This was totally unimaginable from 1957 to 1976, during my school and university years. 

 

We need WW III to get things back into shape.

 

Or is it only in Thailand.

[BonMot]

18 hours ago, BangkokReady said:

Precisely.  One of several users who like to try and twist things and label them with a generic word to make them sound like the worst possible meaning of that word.

 

They won't refer to it as "corporal punishment" or "a ruler across the knuckles".  It has to be "abuse" and "violence".

 

Quite tedious to read and really contributes nothing to any discussion.  All they really want to do is silence people and disrupt any meaningful conversation.

 

Call it what you wish.

 

Hands off the kids.

[BonMot]

When students to any degree control the classroom you as a teacher have lost. Allow it to continue long enough and the die is cast. As a teacher you must be the absolute authority.

 

Working with teens is a challenge. You can mitigate the issues by working in good schools. Additionally, learning some classroom management skills are paramount.

 

Two great tricks that works with students (with a conscience).

 

1 stand quietly in front of the class - for as long as it takes. The class will quiet itself eventually.

 

2 When you need to focus the class immediately and in unison ... if you can whistle loudly. Give a short, sharp, very loud whistle. I need to do this rarely when there's too much low level noise, chatter. It's worked in many grades, schools.

 

For the OP someone recommended webapps. I highly second it. Kahoot is BS but there are many others students absolutely love. Rejig your lessons to utilize the apps.

 

OP apparently lost control of a classroom that may have been doomed from the start but oh well. Use the balance of the year to learn how to manage these issues or it may end up being a never ending struggle and youll grow to hate teaching quickly

[BangkokReady]

33 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Call it what you wish.

I have called it what it is. If you don't see it, you shouldn't be teaching anyone.

 

33 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Hands off the kids.

Lol. It's not up to you.

[BangkokReady]

17 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Working with teens is a challenge. You can mitigate the issues by working in good schools.

I love this as a response to a specific hypothetical.

 

"What can a teacher do to in this scenario?"

 

"Leave the school?"

 

Absolutely ridiculous, but funny at least.

[BangkokReady]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:58 AM, BritManToo said:

Failing management removing them from the classroom, you do as @simon43 says and remove yourself from the classroom and the school.

This is the big problem. The reason that a hypothetical like this exists in the first place is that foreign teachers often find themselves in situations where basically "fake teaching" is going on.

 

Nobody cares about the disruptive students, they won't be able to fail, no one respects the teacher or the subject being taught, the students don't value learning English and, if M3, the naughty boys will be off to vocational college next year anyway.

 

In these contexts the teacher has two options: become complicit in the fake teaching and simply go through the motions for about 75% of the class, or leave and try to get into a better school.

 

For someone who does not have the latter choice, you can imagine how the former might wear away at a person's spirit, to the point where they wonder in desperation if having the option to give the naughty boys a whack on the arm with a ruler might straighten things out. (Doesn't mean they actually want to do it.)

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, BonMot said:

 

Working with teens is a challenge. You can mitigate the issues by working in good schools.

How would you define a good school? Are there any schools that are good through and through?

 

Government schools in Thailand must take 60% of their students from the local catchment area. These students are not required to take any kind of entrance exams. The remaining 40% will need to take the exam and will, usually, become the creme de la creme of the school.

 

I have taught in a top 5 ranked school. I can assure you, once you get past the 3rd ranked class in each grade, the behavior is no better than the top 500 ranked school down the road. 

[BritManToo]

32 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

In these contexts the teacher has two options: become complicit in the fake teaching and simply go through the motions for about 75% of the class, or leave and try to get into a better school.

I taught in UK inner City estate high schools. My only requirements in the classroom were they stay seated and didn't make a noise. Requiring anything else was impossible.

[simon43]

21 hours ago, HappyExpat57 said:

I used to send them out to the hallway where I could still see them from the front of the classroom. Occasionally a high level Thai admin would see them, ask them me why they were there, then proceed to give that student a royal a$$ chewing.

I used to lock the classroom door when the class started.  Any late students were at the mercy of being caught by the Principal in the corridor.

 

No-one was ever late again for my lessons, and no-one played around again. 

[markclover]

It's a no fail system.  We can not fail anyone and the students know it.  If we could fail students the standards and general teaching atmosphere would increase all round.

 

The tablets, phones, touchscreens and other tacky add-ons are all useless.  We still have to use a book.

[BangkokReady]

22 hours ago, simon43 said:

I used to lock the classroom door when the class started.  Any late students were at the mercy of being caught by the Principal in the corridor.

 

No-one was ever late again for my lessons, and no-one played around again. 

Now imagine that nobody cares if the students attend or not and you're still expected to pass them all...