Mystery leaks hit Russian undersea gas pipelines to Europe

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Exactly. Part of the US masterplan to keep Europe dependent. The US is afraid of European countries breaking away from the EU (a US vassal) and aligning more with the rest of the world, BRICS, SCO etc. This sea change is already happening with Hungary, Poland, Italy, Serbia and so on. There are multiple protests against the Russian sanctions, a US initiative. Germans are calling for the opening of NS2. Blowing it up puts an end to those protests.

 

More and more, whichever way you look, the evidence is stacking up against the US. Of course, some posters are so brainwashed that they can’t see it. Much like QAnon followers.

Right. The US wants to help the Russians by making it more difficult for Western Europe to oppose the Russians. And you think Poland is opposed to the fight against Russia? And Meloni, who will be heading Italy, is a very strong supporter of the Ukraine cause.

Edited September 29, 2022 by placeholder

[candide]

8 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

? What is probably the world's best negotiator and deal maker offering to be the adult in the room and help broker a deal, and you call him a clown? Of course, this invasion did not occur on his watch. Putin knew better than to try that, and waited until weakness and incompetence reared its head and took the opportunity the insecure biden admin presented.

 

 I note Russian media is displaying anger over the pipeline sabotage, and also ridiculing the western msm narrative that Russia blew up their own pipeline because they are too dumb to flip a switch.

 

 

Trump? ???? 

 

Could it be that Putin waited for the end of the pandemic and for the price of energy to go up, before making the decision to attack?

[billd766]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:10 AM, SoilSpoil said:

The question is 'who benefits from this'? I strongly doubt Russia would blow up their supply pipelines, as they can control whats going through. 

OTOH they may have done it themselves to throw suspicion onto the West and the USA in particular.

[billd766]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:50 PM, Gweiloman said:

Could be. But the implication was very strong that it was a ‘far away’ country or countries. At the moment, it could either be Qatar or the US, depending on who has the ability. 

 

Another revelation that came to light was that there was a possible deal for gas supply to resume in exchange for Ukraine giving up 20% of its territory. This would give Ukraine a motive as well.

 

No good theories as to why Russia would sabotage their own pipeline when all they had to do was just turn a tap.

A link to the ships of the Ukrainian Navy.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Ukrainian_Navy_ships

 

I am not sure how a Ukrainian Navy could sail undetected by anybody.

 

It would have to sail through the Black Sea, through the Bospherus Straights, Istanbul, through the sea of Marmara, into the Mediterranean sea, through the Straights of Gibraltar, into the Atlantic, the Bay of Biscay, and either through the English Channel into the North Sea, or around Ireland and back into the North Sea, through the Straights of Denmark and then into the Baltic Sea.

 

The Ukraine doesn't actually have ANY submarines or depot ships so they would have to use surface ships along with supply ships and it would take a fair amount of time to get there.

 

Not to mention applying for permissions from various countries whose waters they would travel through.

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Right. The US wants to help the Russians by making it more difficult for Western Europe to oppose the Russians. And you think Poland is opposed to the fight against Russia? And Meloni, who will be heading Italy, is a very strong supporter of the Ukraine cause.

I never said anything about Poland being opposed to the fight against Russia, but that Poland is not happy with EU. Not everything is about the war. Try to keep up.

 

Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki labeled as “scandalous” comments by European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen that the EU has “the tools” to deal with a member state if things “go in a difficult direction.”

At a conference at Princeton University on Thursday, von der Leyen was asked about the candidates in Sunday’s legislative elections in Italy, but she included Poland and Hungary in her response.

“If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools,” von der Leyen said, in a clear reference to the Commission’s ability to cut funds allocated to EU governments when they are deemed to be violating the rule of law.

“Von der Leyen’s statement was scandalous,” Morawiecki said in the Polish town of Świdnik on Saturday, the state-run news agency PAP reported. “She said Brussels had the tools to discipline Italy if it created a government that would not be in favor of Brussels,” he was quoted as saying.

“Is this the Europe we want? … That Eurocrats in Brussels dictate what the government should be?” Morawiecki asked. “This is not the rule of law; it is a dictate and the lack of the rule of law,” the prime minister said.

[billd766]

20 hours ago, lemmie said:

Too late, we all know BIDEN is feckless and helpless on foreign policy and needs to take a few lessons from Trump.

Actually there is no "WE", but there is you, and if you believe that you are speaking of most people worldwide, then you are completely wrong. You are certainly not speaking for me.

 

The only lessons that EX president Trump could give is how to spin 30,xxx lies in 4 years, and how to lose an election.

Edited September 29, 2022 by billd766
added extra text

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I never said anything about Poland being opposed to the fight against Russia, but that Poland is not happy with EU. Not everything is about the war. Try to keep up.

 

Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki labeled as “scandalous” comments by European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen that the EU has “the tools” to deal with a member state if things “go in a difficult direction.”

At a conference at Princeton University on Thursday, von der Leyen was asked about the candidates in Sunday’s legislative elections in Italy, but she included Poland and Hungary in her response.

“If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools,” von der Leyen said, in a clear reference to the Commission’s ability to cut funds allocated to EU governments when they are deemed to be violating the rule of law.

“Von der Leyen’s statement was scandalous,” Morawiecki said in the Polish town of Świdnik on Saturday, the state-run news agency PAP reported. “She said Brussels had the tools to discipline Italy if it created a government that would not be in favor of Brussels,” he was quoted as saying.

“Is this the Europe we want? … That Eurocrats in Brussels dictate what the government should be?” Morawiecki asked. “This is not the rule of law; it is a dictate and the lack of the rule of law,” the prime minister said.

I made the mistake of assuming that you were sticking to the topic, What has any of that got to do with a thread about the Nordstream gas pipeline ruptures?.

[Gweiloman]

11 minutes ago, billd766 said:

A link to the ships of the Ukrainian Navy.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Ukrainian_Navy_ships

 

I am not sure how a Ukrainian Navy could sail undetected by anybody.

 

It would have to sail through the Black Sea, through the Bospherus Straights, Istanbul, through the sea of Marmara, into the Mediterranean sea, through the Straights of Gibraltar, into the Atlantic, the Bay of Biscay, and either through the English Channel into the North Sea, or around Ireland and back into the North Sea, through the Straights of Denmark and then into the Baltic Sea.

 

The Ukraine doesn't actually have ANY submarines or depot ships so they would have to use surface ships along with supply ships and it would take a fair amount of time to get there.

 

Not to mention applying for permissions from various countries whose waters they would travel through.

The depth of the pipes is only 70 metres. Don’t need a submarine, just a few well trained divers I would imagine. I’m not saying they did it, just that they also have a possible motive.

 

My money is still on that most warmongering and disruptive country in the world, USA. They are even willing to fight their own countrymen to put a treasonous criminal in the highest office in the land. Don’t forget, he believed Putin over his own intelligence agencies. And he is also hinting that Biden is responsible for this terroristic act.

 

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

One good thing coming out of this terrorist act is that Russia is now forced to look to the east to sell their gas. Naturally, China will be their biggest customer and China will benefit from the cheap gas that Europe had been enjoying for decades. Australia will suffer (natural gas is a much cleaner fuel then coal). China will build pipelines as part of their BRI and supply gas to Central and SEA.

 

All this time, Europe will be forced to import much more expensive LNG from US and Qatar. This is the beginning of the end for Europe and when that happens, the US will diminish in power alongside Europe. 
 

The future belongs to the Global South and the East.

Actually, the long term outlook for natural gas is not good. Renewables are already beginning to outcompete natural gas in generating electricity. And member nations of the EU are accelerating their conversion to wind and solar. So demand from that quarter will be fading rapidly.. 25 percent of natural goes goes mostly to making ammonia for fertilizer. There, too, new low energy techniques have been developed that will eliminate natural gas from that market. In addition there will be a lot more natural gas coming on line from the Cyprus, Israel, and Lebanon for the interim. So the prices won't stay at the elevated levels they are now.

And of course it's going to take quite a while to get that pipeline to China up and running. About 8 years, in fact. 

 

Power of Siberia 2 to divert Europe-bound gas to China

The construction of a second gas pipeline linking Russia and China is expected to commence within two years, a megaproject that will put Mongolia in the middle as the pipe is designed to pass through its high-elevation territory.

Mongolia’s Prime Minister Oyun-Erdene Luvsannamsrai said the feasibility study of the “Power of Siberia 2” gas pipeline, which will connect Siberian gas fields to China via Mongolia, has been completed and that construction would begin in 2024, according to a Financial Times report.

The pipeline, which will deliver Europe-bound gas from western Siberian fields to China for the first time, is expected to go online in 2030, the Moscow Times reported. 

https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/power-of-siberia-2-to-divert-europe-bound-gas-to-china/

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by placeholder

[bannork]

49 minutes ago, billd766 said:

OTOH they may have done it themselves to throw suspicion onto the West and the USA in particular.

Perhaps the Russians did it to show the West that their new Norway- Poland gas pipeline, nearby, is not immune to attack.

 

[Gweiloman]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I made the mistake of assuming that you were sticking to the topic, What has any of that got to do with a thread about the Nordstream gas pipeline ruptures?.

Hmmm, seems like you are unable to see the big picture, an important ability when discussing geopolitical matters. 
 

This thread is about acts of sabotage (terrorism). Thus, it’s only natural to talk about potential bad actors, reasons for the sabotage and possible consequences. 
 

The US needs a weak but united Europe to keep up its proxy war against Russia. They saw that Europe was beginning to splinter because they have shot themselves in the lungs (The European Union has "shot itself in the lungs" with ill-considered economic sanctions on Russia, which, unless rolled back, risk destroying the European economy, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said on Friday.)

 

So, in a desperate attempt to try and keep Europe unified, they executed this highly illegal act of sabotaging the NS pipes, thinking that Europe will be so angered that they will band together again, against Russia. Big miscalculation and now they are scrambling. 
 

Plenty of Americans are now believing that it is the US that did this, according to Fox News. Even Tucker Carlson, America’s top anchor is spouting this point of view.

 

[Gweiloman]

16 minutes ago, bannork said:

Perhaps the Russians did it to show the West that their new Norway- Poland gas pipeline, nearby, is not immune to attack.

 

Some posters have suggested this. Let’s say it’s true. What then? Will Europe then wave the white flag, pleading, please, please, don’t attack our pipeline? What is this supposed signal to the west meant to achieve?

[Gweiloman]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, the long term outlook for natural gas is not good. Renewables are already beginning to outcompete natural gas in generating electricity. And member nations of the EU are accelerating their conversion to wind and solar. So demand from that quarter will be fading rapidly.. 25 percent of natural goes goes mostly to making ammonia for fertilizer. There, too, new low energy techniques have been developed that will eliminate natural gas from that market. In addition there will be a lot more natural gas coming on line from the Cyprus, Israel, and Lebanon for the interim. So the prices won't stay at the elevated levels they are now.

And of course it's going to take quite a while to get that pipeline to China up and running. About 8 years, in fact. 

 

Power of Siberia 2 to divert Europe-bound gas to China

The construction of a second gas pipeline linking Russia and China is expected to commence within two years, a megaproject that will put Mongolia in the middle as the pipe is designed to pass through its high-elevation territory.

Mongolia’s Prime Minister Oyun-Erdene Luvsannamsrai said the feasibility study of the “Power of Siberia 2” gas pipeline, which will connect Siberian gas fields to China via Mongolia, has been completed and that construction would begin in 2024, according to a Financial Times report.

The pipeline, which will deliver Europe-bound gas from western Siberian fields to China for the first time, is expected to go online in 2030, the Moscow Times reported. 

https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/power-of-siberia-2-to-divert-europe-bound-gas-to-china/

 

 

Lol. When do you think renewables will replace fossil fuels? If it’s just round the corner, then why is Europe so worried at the moment?

 

There is already an existing pipeline to China. Not sure if it’s operating at full capacity though. If not, I imagine that it will be soon.

[placeholder]

Just now, Gweiloman said:

Hmmm, seems like you are unable to see the big picture, an important ability when discussing geopolitical matters. 
 

This thread is about acts of sabotage (terrorism). Thus, it’s only natural to talk about potential bad actors, reasons for the sabotage and possible consequences. 
 

The US needs a weak but united Europe to keep up its proxy war against Russia. They saw that Europe was beginning to splinter because they have shot themselves in the lungs (The European Union has "shot itself in the lungs" with ill-considered economic sanctions on Russia, which, unless rolled back, risk destroying the European economy, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said on Friday.)

 

So, in a desperate attempt to try and keep Europe unified, they executed this highly illegal act of sabotaging the NS pipes, thinking that Europe will be so angered that they will band together again, against Russia. Big miscalculation and now they are scrambling. 
 

Plenty of Americans are now believing that it is the US that did this, according to Fox News. Even Tucker Carlson, America’s top anchor is spouting this point of view.

 

First off, I see you have no answers for the fact that this Sino-Russian pipeline is 8 years away. What's the failing Russian economy going to do in the meantime?

Actually, the opposite is the case when it comes to the EU and weakness. The US actually needs it to stay strong. Weakness helps the Russians. 

And that you actually can write "even Tucker Carlson", a rightwing conspiracy addict,  betrays a deep and laughable ignorance of American affairs.

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, bannork said:

Perhaps the Russians did it to show the West that their new Norway- Poland gas pipeline, nearby, is not immune to attack.

 

Exactly, just as they threatened nuclear strikes in Ukraine with the insinuation that it could also include the west, this is just another one of those threats.

 

Look what just happened, not us, honest but wow look how vulnerable your lovely new Baltic gas pipeline that was going to save you is.

 

Russian terrorists at work. Despicable.

[Bkk Brian]

33 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

The depth of the pipes is only 70 metres. Don’t need a submarine, just a few well trained divers I would imagine. I’m not saying they did it, just that they also have a possible motive.

 

My money is still on that most warmongering and disruptive country in the world, USA. They are even willing to fight their own countrymen to put a treasonous criminal in the highest office in the land. Don’t forget, he believed Putin over his own intelligence agencies. And he is also hinting that Biden is responsible for this terroristic act.

 

 

Of course you need a sub! Do you think they would use a support vessel right next to a busy shipping lane for divers? The attacks occurred with either Spy submarines or underwater drones.

 

"Russian submarines are very well practiced at this sort of thing, though, having honed their skills over decades "investigating" the undersea internet cables running across the north Atlantic."

[Gweiloman]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

First off, I see you have no answers for the fact that this Sino-Russian pipeline is 8 years away. What's the failing Russian economy going to do in the meantime?

Actually, the opposite is the case when it comes to the EU and weakness. The US actually needs it to stay strong. Weakness helps the Russians. 

And that you actually can write "even Tucker Carlson", a rightwing conspiracy addict,  betrays a deep and laughable ignorance of American affairs.

Unlike my post about the imminent collapse of the EU, the Sino-Russian gas pipeline has no relevance to this topic. In any case, PoS1 was built in about 5 years so I imagine that with the extra urgency, PoS2 could be built in a similar amount of time. Construction might also begin earlier. 
 

I doubt that Russia will fail before Europe. Weaker countries than Russia have survived western sanctions for many years and Russia has many friends.

 

 I probably know more about American affairs than the average American. Did you know that some MAGA supporters didn’t even realise there was an insurrection in their own country? And even some elected officials don’t know who the real president is? And that TC is one of the most watched show in America? He is even welcomed in Hungary lol.

[Gweiloman]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Of course you need a sub! Do you think they would use a support vessel right next to a busy shipping lane for divers? The attacks occurred with either Spy submarines or underwater drones.

 

"Russian submarines are very well practiced at this sort of thing, though, having honed their skills over decades "investigating" the undersea internet cables running across the north Atlantic."

I wouldn’t know. Just saying that they could have a motive. And if they wanted to, they could have done it, possibly with the help of the US.

[Gweiloman]

29 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Exactly, just as they threatened nuclear strikes in Ukraine with the insinuation that it could also include the west, this is just another one of those threats.

 

Look what just happened, not us, honest but wow look how vulnerable your lovely new Baltic gas pipeline that was going to save you is.

 

Russian terrorists at work. Despicable.

Stick to facts. They never threatened nuclear strikes. Putin merely said they had all kinds of weapons, some more modern than those of the west.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I wouldn’t know. Just saying that they could have a motive. And if they wanted to, they could have done it, possibly with the help of the US.

Well now you do know that Russia didnt need any help

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Stick to facts. They never threatened nuclear strikes. Putin merely said they had all kinds of weapons, some more modern than those of the west.

Stick to the facts you say, you seem to be the only person on the planet that did not comprehend what he said and what it meant.

 

"Putin also again made explicit threats against the West. “If its territorial integrity is threatened Russia will use all the means at its disposal,” he said. “This is not a bluff.” Putin warned that Russia “also has various means of destruction” — in other words, nuclear weapons — “and some components are more modern than those of the NATO countries.”

 

Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council

Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday that rhetoric regarding the use of nuclear weapons was "certainly not a bluff".

 

EU's Borrell Says Putin's Nuke Threat Must Be Taken 'seriously'; 'It's A Dangerous Moment'

Edited September 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Gweiloman]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Stick to the facts you say, you seem to be the only person on the planet that did not comprehend what he said and what it meant.

 

"Putin also again made explicit threats against the West. “If its territorial integrity is threatened Russia will use all the means at its disposal,” he said. “This is not a bluff.” Putin warned that Russia “also has various means of destruction” — in other words, nuclear weapons — “and some components are more modern than those of the NATO countries.”

 

Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council

Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday that rhetoric regarding the use of nuclear weapons was "certainly not a bluff".

 

EU's Borrell Says Putin's Nuke Threat Must Be Taken 'seriously'; 'It's A Dangerous Moment'

Putin warned that Russia “also has various means of destruction” — in other words,

 

In other words. Did Putin say, in other words? Or was this by some western correspondent? Putin did not expressly say nuclear strikes like you claimed. But both Biden And Nuland expressly said they will put an end to Nord Stream. Oh, the hypocrisy.

[placeholder]

31 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Unlike my post about the imminent collapse of the EU, the Sino-Russian gas pipeline has no relevance to this topic. In any case, PoS1 was built in about 5 years so I imagine that with the extra urgency, PoS2 could be built in a similar amount of time. Construction might also begin earlier. 
 

I doubt that Russia will fail before Europe. Weaker countries than Russia have survived western sanctions for many years and Russia has many friends.

 

 I probably know more about American affairs than the average American. Did you know that some MAGA supporters didn’t even realise there was an insurrection in their own country? And even some elected officials don’t know who the real president is? And that TC is one of the most watched show in America? He is even welcomed in Hungary lol.

I feel like I'm in oppostie land where talk about a new pipeline to compensate for the loss of a present one is not relevanat, whereas a discussion of Eurpean unity is. I'm just going to ignore your misdiagnoses of the state of the EU.

You may come up with lots of factoids about the USA, but the fact that you wrote "even Tucker Carlson" says all we need to know about the depth of your knowledge of the USA.

POS 2 is planned to be over twice as long as POS1. 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Putin warned that Russia “also has various means of destruction” — in other words,

 

In other words. Did Putin say, in other words? Or was this by some western correspondent? Putin did not expressly say nuclear strikes like you claimed. But both Biden And Nuland expressly said they will put an end to Nord Stream. Oh, the hypocrisy.

Putin said he would use "all available means'. Unless his babushka does not allow him to play with nuclear weapons, it's crystal clear what he means.

Edited September 29, 2022 by placeholder

[Gweiloman]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Putin said he would use "all available means'. Unless he is not allowed to deploy nuclear weapons, it's crystal clear what he means.

All a matter of interpretation. 
 

“You must fight like hell for your country or we won’t have a country anymore “.

“We will have trial by combat”

”It’s time to take names and kick asses”

I wonder how your wonderfully fair courts will interpret all these proclamations.

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Putin warned that Russia “also has various means of destruction” — in other words,

 

In other words. Did Putin say, in other words? Or was this by some western correspondent? Putin did not expressly say nuclear strikes like you claimed. But both Biden And Nuland expressly said they will put an end to Nord Stream. Oh, the hypocrisy.

Rubbish

 

By the way Biden said he would put a stop to Nord 2, not Nord 1 and that had happened already.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Gweiloman said:

All a matter of interpretation. 
 

“You must fight like hell for your country or we won’t have a country anymore “.

“We will have trial by combat”

”It’s time to take names and kick asses”

I wonder how your wonderfully fair courts will interpret all these proclamations.

Putin was not using a metaphor when he said this. It was very plain speaking. 

But if you require more, there's this:

In his most recent comments, Mr Putin explicitly warned the West that Russia would use all available means to defend Russian territory and accused the West of discussing a potential nuclear attack on Russia.

"This is not a bluff. And those who try to blackmail us with nuclear weapons should know that the weathervane can turn and point towards them," he said.

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/truth-or-bluff-why-russian-leader-putins-nuclear-warnings-have-the-west-worried

 

 

[Gweiloman]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Putin was not using a metaphor when he said this. It was very plain speaking. 

But if you require more, there's this:

In his most recent comments, Mr Putin explicitly warned the West that Russia would use all available means to defend Russian territory and accused the West of discussing a potential nuclear attack on Russia.

"This is not a bluff. And those who try to blackmail us with nuclear weapons should know that the weathervane can turn and point towards them," he said.

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/truth-or-bluff-why-russian-leader-putins-nuclear-warnings-have-the-west-worried

 

 

So what he said is that he would retaliate accordingly, meaning it won’t be a first strike. I think that’s fair. Biden said something similar.

[Gweiloman]

13 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Rubbish

 

By the way Biden said he would put a stop to Nord 2, not Nord 1 and that had happened already.

Who is to say that Germany wasn’t having backdoor discussions with Kremlin to reinstate Nord Stream 2?

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Gweiloman said:

Who is to say that Germany wasn’t having backdoor discussions with Kremlin to reinstate Nord Stream 2?

lol, I thought you said stick to the facts, you are funny