Thailand’s gun control remains problematic

[webfact]

 

The recent mass shooting in Nong Bua Lam Phu province was the deadliest in Thailand’s history. The tragedy revealed even more shocking statistics, particularly the country’s high ranking for gun violence and possession. It also restarted the conversation on gun laws.

 

Gun violence trend

 

Thailand is currently ranked 15th among countries with the highest number of gun-related deaths, and ranked 2nd in Southeast Asia, according to the World Population Review website.

 

Countries with the highest number of gun-related deaths are Brazil, the United States, Mexico, India and Columbia, while the Philippines has the highest number of deaths in the ASEAN region.

 

 

While it seems like gun violence and mass shootings are becoming more frequent, Southeast Asia, in fact, has less gun violence than other continents. Gun violence is much higher in the Americas.

 

Full story: https://www.thaipbsworld.com/thailands-gun-control-remains-problematic/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2022-10-17

 

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[2baht]

Does anyone in authority have the intestinal fortitiude to really do something about it? ????

[TheFishman1]

I think their attitude is not my problem until they lose a loved one due to gun violence illegal guns corruption all the things that Taylan is so used to nothing will change TIT

[sammieuk1]

Welcome to dead LOS now working very hard to stay alive and is very problematic will be TAT's new tag line for the 22/23 season  ???? 

[RichardColeman]

53 deaths A WEEK from gun violence. NO Thailand does not have a gun problem, just a complete and utter junta based governmental failure one ! Useless politicians too full of their own ego and snouts in the trough to get up and do anything about anything

[Andycoops]

While the military and police benefit from the trade in arms nothing will be done because of the lust for money and their greed.

A complete disgrace and stain on the nation.

[ChrisY1]

My guess is that the cops have already moved on....gun control, as are most of their activities, just too hard!

[Nicholas Paul KNIGHT]

Like many things here it will require a complete change of the current mindset to do anything, more so when you have the Military and the Police openly in some places involved in this GUN problem. 

[Dogmatix]

Numbers 1 and 3 on the list of gun murders, Brazil and Mexico have very strict gun control laws that make it extremely difficult for civilians to buy legal firearms but there are huge quantities available to criminals on the black market. Thailand would be like that, if they intraduced stricter control of legal guns but failed to control the thriving black market in guns which is fueled by the nonsensical civil service welfare scheme. Unlike licensed gun shops the scheme has no quotas and regularly imports more guns in a year than the combined quotas of all Thailand’s gun shops. Many of these weapons are reported ‘lost’ and show up at crime scenes or in neighboring countries. I recall a quote from a Bangkok senior policeman some years ago about gang violence. He said that previously vocational school delinquents used only homemade single shot guns, either .22 pen guns or 12 gauge pistol shotguns,  but since the ramping up of the welfare scheme, they were increasingly using ‘list’ welfare guns which significantly increased their fire power. There is no restriction on buying more discounted guns after ‘losing’ them. The scheme is also a money spinner for officials into the billions. So they will not stop it.

 

Apart from ‘lost’ welfare guns a big source of black market weapons is strangely enough inheritance. Thailand’s slack officials are too lazy to close the loop on deceased permit holders. There is actually a system to allow heirs to inherit guns and get permits with less restrictions than regular applicants in order to encourage heirs to come forward and re-register inherited weapons within 30 days. But there is little education and awareness of this and there is no linking of death certificates to firearms permits which are issued for life. As a result of this muddled approach thousands of formerly legal guns become illegal, held by heirs or sold into black market.

 

So much of the black market is actually created by government policies and ineptitude. But officials reports like Thai PBS gloss over a lot of details.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Dogmatix

[Bangkok Barry]

Pandora's box was opened long ago and it is impossible to close it now. The guns are there and no amount of 'amnesty' or new laws or 'crackdowns' can change that. The guns are out there, and border 'controls' are a joke.

And, as the article says, media in the form of tv dramas plays a major part in the public perception of there being a need for guns. In fact, every Thai drama should be taken off the air for showing violence of all kinds being a normal way to resolve disputes, with a gun or not. Let them show the results of the Me First, brain-dead driving instead.

 

There are countries that have curbed the ownership and use of guns after massacres have occurred, but in those countries people have a sense of responsibility and respect for the law, neither of which exist in Thailand for numerous reasons (poor education, a useless police force, corruption in every aspect of Thai society etc). So nothing in Thailand will change. It never does.

[Purdey]

The linked article is very interesting. There is no god given right to own a gun here. They can therefore be heavily regulated if the government wants. I liked the point about gun violence being less in countries that trust their police to protect them. Obviously a huge hurdle in Thailand.

I used to shoot as a hobby in the UK and appreciate how laws make it possible to do this - under strict control. 

[BKKBike09]

34 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

fueled by the nonsensical civil service welfare scheme

+1 to that.

 

And the welfare schemes also make it much easier to buy for the legions of minor govt officials they cover because welfare guns are around a third the price for same gun if purchased legally by an ordinary person. Plus some schemes allow for instalment purchase, whereas buying from a gun shop as an ordinary person is full payment in one go.

[BKKBike09]

From the linked article:

 

"As Thai criminologist, Associate Professor Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Krisanaphong Poothakool explains, people no longer believe that the police can effectively protect them when they are in trouble. “On the other hand, why don’t people in the UK, Japan, or Singapore believe that they have to possess a gun? Because their government reassures them that, if there’s a crime, the police can take prompt action and provide justice.”

 

True in Japan or Singapore. The UK? Forget the police taking prompt action and providing justice if you get burgled or mugged! They might however ask you to fill in a diversity and inclusion questionnaire alongside your victim statement.

[kentrot]

I've lived in Thailand for 19 years. Back then any image on a TV or Movie of a gun was blurred out . Same with cigarettes.

Now gun violence is shown from dawn to dusk on tv.  It has become common place to see violence.

 

I blame the censors for not keeping that SH*# out of our faces. This calm beautiful Thai culture has been indoctrinated into the culture of guns and violence by daily tv exposure to it... normalizing that violent behavior. 

[kennw]

The sources of the tragedy are being blamed on drugs and guns, but one question not being adequately addressed is how a person with a known history of involvement was able to be accepted into the police force. Is the question too sensitive? 

[jvs]

A friend of mine was pulled over at a check stop,they found his handgun under his seat.Big trouble!

His choice?One thousand baht fine and the gun taken,     or,,,,,

three thousand baht and keep the gun.

It is back under the seat.

Edited October 17, 2022 by jvs

[firemans35]

Doesn't say if the gun deaths are murder, suicide, accidental. I would like to see the number per capita

[mjakob007]

Thailand would be ranked in top 10, not 15.!

 

Brazil, Pakistan & Nigeria has population of 200+million

Thailand has a population of 70mill, competing with countries with 3X its population for top spot on gun related deaths.

 

Lot of it has got to do with people

- captivated by what they watch on media,

- availability of guns,

- use of prohibited substances

- socio economic turmoil

 

Can expect more to come, although we hope for a reduction

[AlQaholic]

Just a message from the statistics police:

It is true that Thailand is ranked 15 by the number of total fire-arms related deaths (so far in 2022). 

However, Thailand ranks around 49th when counting the same per 100k population (rate). Thailand is among a group of countries with similar rate such as Kenya, Namibia, Dominica, Guinea-Bissau, Serbia, Burkina Faso, Montenegro, Surinam.

Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by AlQaholic

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, jvs said:

A friend of mine was pulled over at a check stop,they found his handgun under his seat.Big trouble!

His choice?One thousand baht fine and the gun taken,     or,,,,,

three thousand baht and keep the gun.

It is back under the seat.

Maybe a low income province.  I have heard of 20k paid for being found with a licensed gun but no carry permit found in car in central Bangkok at night. I think a 1,000 baht fine is optimistic for deciding to accept being charged and to to court instead of paying an on the spot bribe, if that option is offered.   That might be the fine for a licensed gun in a locked box in the boot of your car with ammo in a separate locked box on the way to or from a range but I think it would be over 10k for a loaded handgun within reach.  It would also be advisable to be represented by an experienced criminal lawyer to make sure police and prosecutors follow due process and don't get you on trumped up charges.  Finally, it is quite common for police to get their armourer to remove or damage some some difficult to replace (in Thailand) part of the gun out of spite.  So when it is returned to you after being acquitted or getting a modest fine, you can only use it as a paperwork - to teach you a lesson not to be a smarty pants and refuse to bribe the cops.  So you may be out of pocket another 80-200k for a new gun.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Dogmatix

[cjinchiangrai]

1 hour ago, jvs said:

A friend of mine was pulled over at a check stop, they found his handgun under his seat. Big trouble!

His choice? One thousand baht fine and the gun taken,     or,,,,,

three thousand baht and keep the gun.

It is back under the seat.

How about arrested, fined 50,000 baht and gun taken?

 

Who is importing and manufacturing the guns in the first place? The manufacturers have ways to influence governments to allow more sales. It is not the best plan for wives and children.

 

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

+1 to that.

 

And the welfare schemes also make it much easier to buy for the legions of minor govt officials they cover because welfare guns are around a third the price for same gun if purchased legally by an ordinary person. Plus some schemes allow for instalment purchase, whereas buying from a gun shop as an ordinary person is full payment in one go.

Also very peripheral civil servants qualify for the welfare scheme, including local defence volunteers in villages, as well as state enterprise employees.  Some years ago a US embassy report of an investigation into welfare guns imported from the US and found re-exported to neighbouring countries was leaked on Wikileaks. Here it is. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WL0911/S00555.htm.  The embassy investigators visited a Thai Indian owned firearms importer and gun shop owner involved in the welfare scheme.  The interviewees gave the impression that 80% of the welfare guns were bought by law enforcement and military officials for use as duty pistols and emphasised the need for officials to have guns in the Deep South. It sounds a rather sanitised version of the welfare scheme but I would guess the US embassy officials were not so dumb as to believe all of it. However, the US is happy with the business which includes a lot of European brands like Glock, Sig Sauer, HK etc which cannot be exported directly from the EU due to a directive caused by perceived Thai government human rights abuses in the South.  So the US exports the European brands either from Glock and Sig factories in the US or US wholesalers import the guns from Europe and re-export them, presumably with fudged end user certificates given to the European manufacturers, which is exactly what the US embassy was investigating in Thailand. 

 

As an aside, the Europeans are somewhat hypocritical in this area anyway as HK exported assault rifles to the Mexican government with approval from the German government on condition they signed end user certificates that the rifles would not be sent to Mexican provinces with the worst records of human rights abuses.  Of course the HK products went to these provinces and have been documented being used in human righst abuses.

 

Back to the welfare scheme.  I'll leave aside the obvious criticism that the Thai government should equip law enforcement and military with firearms necessary for their jobs and take them back when finished.  Accepting this nonsensical situation, the most sensible reform of the welfare system would be let officials but not state enterprise employees, buy guns they need for duty from the welfare scheme.  In most cases this would be a single handgun which should be mandatorily sold when they leave the job.  Any more guns officials want for sport or collection purposes, they should buy at the retail prices like all other Thai citizens.  The reason this won't happen is that there is just too much money being made from the welfare scheme. Profit from it must be well in excess of 1 billion a year and a lot of palms are greased all the way up the chain.  If it were purely to provide service weapons, why not sell them to the officers at cost which would be about half the welfare price?

Edited October 17, 2022 by Dogmatix

[Iamfalang]

10 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

How about arrested, fined 50,000 baht and gun taken?

How about 1000000 billion baht.

 

Once they have ZERO money, I'm sure things will get better.................... NOT!!!

 

Fines aren't the answer.

 

How about arrested and jailed for 100 years, destroying the family!!!!     NOT!!!

 

Gun companies are too powerful, let's not even try to solve this...It's IMPOSSIBLE.   Don't waste your time.   You online experts have tried to ban guns for DECADES.....what a failure!!!!!  lol  Why are you still trying???  lol

 

I'm selling anti-gun t-shirts for 10,000 baht each!!!    

 

 

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, kentrot said:

This calm beautiful Thai culture has been indoctrinated into the culture of guns and violence by daily tv exposure to it... normalizing that violent behavior. 

And harridan like screeching at silent doe faced men.....

[hotchilli]

7 hours ago, 2baht said:

Does anyone in authority have the intestinal fortitiude to really do something about it? ????

No

 

[hotchilli]

Thailands gun control remains problematic:

they have no control... end of.

[hotchilli]

5 hours ago, Nicholas Paul KNIGHT said:

Like many things here it will require a complete change of the current mindset to do anything, more so when you have the Military and the Police openly in some places involved in this GUN problem. 

Guns and drugs are a big problem.. uniformed people and people in high places are at the tip of the ice-berg.

 

[finnomick1]

Simple answer is tighter and proper licensing and better control of ownership. The current rules are pathetic.

The wife went through the process with the view of owning either a .17 or .22 single round rifle to control the white birds eating all the fish. She got her license but was then told a rifle was far too dangerous a weapon......but she could have a 9mm Beretta. Experts will correct me but I think the Beretta can hold 21 rounds but it is advised to load no more than 17. Far less dangerous !

[connda]

In Thailand there are legally registered guns and illegal guns.

Gun Control:
Legal guns are expensive (five time the price of a pistol/revolver bought in the US) and the registration process is time consuming (upwards of months).  So Thailand controls legally purchased firearms via price and regulation.  Unlike the US, the police know where your legally purchase gun is.  And there are strict controls on those firearms.  Once purchased, most of those firearms must remain at the buyer's residence.  Only a small handful of firearm owners can legally carry and firearm.

Illegal guns are affordable and remain unregistered.  Many are cheap, poorly made, and dangerous to operate.  Owning an illegal firearm can get you tossed into prison for a long time.  Like any black market activity, the cops can only do so much.

The recent massacre. 
Reality.  The murderer slit many of the kids throats with a knife while they slept.  Given that the guy was previously a cop, my guess is that his firearm was legal. 

Controlling weapons?  Should rocks, sticks, and knives be illegal from this point on.  How about fists and feet.  Where do you draw the line?
Gun control in Thailand if very robust as opposed to the US. 
How do you stop genocidal murderers?  Murderers were murdering people before guns were even invented.  Solution?  I don't think their is one.  This is the reality into which we are born, sucks as it may.
 

[connda]

30 minutes ago, finnomick1 said:

Simple answer is tighter and proper licensing and better control of ownership. The current rules are pathetic.

The wife went through the process with the view of owning either a .17 or .22 single round rifle to control the white birds eating all the fish. She got her license but was then told a rifle was far too dangerous a weapon......but she could have a 9mm Beretta. Experts will correct me but I think the Beretta can hold 21 rounds but it is advised to load no more than 17. Far less dangerous !

Shooting birds eating fish?  There are less dangerous options.
I wouldn't want your wife to have a .22 either.  Her popping off trying to kill bird would probably end the life of a neighbor or villager walking by.

Most Thais don't have a clue about gun safety.