Thainess - a true definition?

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

I do believe the word 'racist' is used far too often, thus cheapening it, when something is actually not racist, but is another form of discrimination.  You make my point best when, in your previous response, you called me 'racist' because I posted that you were not turned away because of your race but because you were not a Thai citizen. 

Most government hospitals have no problem treating Burmese/Cambodian/Malay.

Therefore racist!

Edited October 25, 2022 by BritManToo

[newnative]

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

IF we’re going to get into the nuts and bots of it, the policy still ‘could’ have been racist...

... Would a Burmese, Vietnamese, Cambodian etc also be refused medication from the hospital in the same situation or was it as the op stated?...

 

‘She [the treating medical practitioner] then told me that her boss had told her that she could NOT dispense these drugs to Falangs regardless of their medical condition'

 

Thus, what is meant by ‘Falang / Farang’ in this instance ???  white foreigners?

... or was the Dr simplifying the statement and instead of highlighting  ’non-Thais’ used the work ‘farang’ (a world I very rarely here educated professionals use - perhaps the Dr’s handle of English was not as strong).

.... OR... did the Dr. actually state ’non-Thai’s'.... and the the Op has since stated ‘Falang’....??

 

Where language is a barrier, there is plenty of scope for variance in the underlying wording, meaning and facts of the policy the hospital was operating under. 

 

 

 

 

    I think there are a number of interpretations of 'farang'--even including how it is spelled.  Farang?  Falang?  I interpret it as meaning a foreigner, someone who is not a Thai citizen.  The nurse could have done a better job in explaining the hospital policy but used the shorthand of 'farang'.   The doctor may well have used 'non-Thais' and the nurse the word she is familiar with.  There may have been a misinterpretation of hospital policy regarding the administration of covid drugs but if there was I don't think it was motivated by race; rather by whether the patient was a Thai citizen or a non-Thai who did not qualify.

    You mention Burmese, Cambodian, and Vietnamese patients.  If the hospital had an ASEAN agreement that requires it to treat citizens of ASEAN countries, again, this would not be racist if a person who is not a Thai citizen and is not a citizen of the covered ASEAN countries is denied service.   If there was no such agreement and an Asian Cambodian national was given service while a Black Canadian national or a White American national (or a White Cambodian national, for that matter) standing next to him was denied service, this, indeed, would be racism.   

[Foghorn]

13 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Do you pay tax here? Why do you think tourists(long term or short) should get the same treatment as citizens?

Everything we buy or pay for is taxed so he must be paying tax , I would also expect that he doesn’t work or take a job from a Thai but contributes to some Thais income , don’t you think ?

[Why Me]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

Doesn't it seem reasonable, if in a life-threatening situation, to simply go to the nearest hospital to your location, but expect to pay if you are not a citizen, rather than carefully having to seek out a private hospital because government hospitals will refuse to treat you?

You would think so. Until (while still healthy) you visit a well-run private hospital like say Bumrungrud. And then visit a reputed Government hospital like say Chula Memorial. And then ask yourself where would I want to be admitted, operated on and spend 3 days in intensive care:-)

Edited October 25, 2022 by Why Me

[Stevemercer]

I remember reading something along these lines a few years back, related to discipline.

 

Discipline, to put it mildly, is a quality in short supply in Thai culture. What we do have is plenty of the opposite, known in Thai as mug ngai.

 

Mug ngai can be roughly defined as a tendency to take the easy way out with little concern for the inconvenience caused to others.

 

Taking shortcuts by driving the wrong way or riding on footpaths is just one example.

Paying bribes to traffic policemen, throwing trash on the ground, and performing shoddy work are all other examples of our mug ngai culture.

 

But it's not just mundane matters where we see mug ngai in action. It's such an ingrained trait that we can find it in every nook and cranny of society -- in business, official work, legal circles, and in politics.

 

 

[BangkokReady]

7 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

Mug ngai can be roughly defined as a tendency to take the easy way out with little concern for the inconvenience caused to others.

Is this linked to the practice of lying and delaying people where someone either doesn't want to do something difficult or demanding, or they don't want to have to say "no" to someone?

[BangkokReady]

24 minutes ago, newnative said:

I interpret it as meaning a foreigner, someone who is not a Thai citizen.

I don't think that Thai people call other Asians "farang".  Also, a Westerner who has gained Thai citizenship will likely still be classified as a "farang".

Edited October 25, 2022 by BangkokReady

[PremiumLane]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I understand but would you like Thailand to be like the UK and let immigrants from all over to come and get equal treatment? 

Which doesn't happen. You can't just rock up and get equal treatment in the UK. You have to show you are a resident in the UK. 

[NoshowJones]

Thainess - a true definition?

I sympathise with you all the way here. When this pandemic started, it showed most of the Thai medical profession up for what they really are. Greedy capitalists.

[NoshowJones]

14 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

no. it is a story about some doctors at a public hospital who were trying to help but probably did not know all the contingencies... and a patient who did not want to go to a more expensive private hospital where he would not have had to wait.. 

 

Nice guy - 

"I would have unleashed a verbal tirade on her".  So would I.

[MrJ2U]

"Thainess - a true definition?"

 

Dual pricing. 

[mjakob007]

From my experience, Thainess was/is cultivated as a means for 'protectionism' or 'monopoly' in corporate terms...

 

foreigners would not belong, even if you are tax payers or have blue, yellow books, pink cards, married with kids, contributing in various ways to the nation. you are always quite a few notches down the pecking order.

 

This also arises from their 'superiority complex', where they believe the race is superlative to all others.

 

 

[NoshowJones]

12 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

After reading a few comments in this thread it seems they didn't give you the medicine you demanded. 

That doesn't mean they don't give it to any westerners. 

Maybe they just didn't like you or your attitude. That doesn't make is racist. 

The poster was not well, he was sent to queue here, then queue there, this was a dreadful way to teach someone who is obviously not well.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

    I think there are a number of interpretations of 'farang'--even including how it is spelled.  Farang?  Falang?  I interpret it as meaning a foreigner, someone who is not a Thai citizen.  The nurse could have done a better job in explaining the hospital policy but used the shorthand of 'farang'.   The doctor may well have used 'non-Thais' and the nurse the word she is familiar with.  There may have been a misinterpretation of hospital policy regarding the administration of covid drugs but if there was I don't think it was motivated by race; rather by whether the patient was a Thai citizen or a non-Thai who did not qualify.

I quite agree....  I don’t think it was racist, but its definitely discrimination against someone unwell. 

 

1 hour ago, newnative said:

    You mention Burmese, Cambodian, and Vietnamese patients.  If the hospital had an ASEAN agreement that requires it to treat citizens of ASEAN countries, again, this would not be racist if a person who is not a Thai citizen and is not a citizen of the covered ASEAN countries is denied service.   If there was no such agreement and an Asian Cambodian national was given service while a Black Canadian national or a White American national (or a White Cambodian national, for that matter) standing next to him was denied service, this, indeed, would be racism.   

Any possible agreement is somewhat moot as it pertains to free treatment. 

The Op was paying for treatment and prepared to pay for medication which was not expensive nor in undersupply. 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

8 hours ago, Why Me said:

I don't see any problem with a state-run hospital having a policy of offering certain treatments/drugs only to citizens. The logic of reserving government funds to care only for nationals is obvious.

Not that it should be this way but it's certainly justifiable.

There is no reservation of funds - foreigners pay, the hospitals profit. None of the treatment is subsidised by the government and the drugs are in ample supply. 

 

You have presented no reasonable justification here. 

 

8 hours ago, Why Me said:

And not racist by any means. And the OP's doctor was unable to override this rule, which as public servant she can't be blamed for. (The doctor's account of "I try for you but Big Boss him not let me" should be taken under advisement: she probably wanted to avoid a confrontation with the OP.)

Agreed, the Op has not tried to blame the Doctor who was under instructions. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Why Me said:

The lesson here is that if you are in a life-threatening situation do not go to a government hospital because of (a) the policy the OP ran into, and (b) the level of care is likely (much) better at a private institution.

It is illegal for any Hospital in Thailand not to render ‘life saving care’.

 

What you are suggesting is that any hospital could refuse a patient based on nationality which could potential cost them their lives... 

 

That said, this wasn’t life saving care - but the hospital agreed to treat the Op, then turned the tables on him when it came to providing medication. That is clearly outrageously and very wrong. 

 

Agreed, many of us would go straight to a Private Institution, however, when quite unwell we may need to go to the closest. 

 

Knowing we may be treated poorly based solely on nationality should be alarming for all of us reading this. 

 

8 hours ago, Why Me said:

Caveat re (b): I was having major dental rehab done at a well-known private clinic here in Bkk couple of years ago when a serious complication emerged which they were unable to solve despite repeated attempts over a month. Then, a doctor at another clinic suggested I consult the "profs" at Mahidol University Dentistry near Victory Monument. I was sorted in two visits.

Excellent - but how would you have felt halfway through the treatment had they turned around and said “Sorry, its policy that we cannot give Farangs this treatment”...  I’m sure you’d be quite angry. 

 

 

[Thingamabob]

One of the most pathetic posts I have ever read on these pages. Thais/Siamese are generally a helpful bunch, particularly where illness is concerned, a good example of what you call Thainess stands for. And, by the way, don't shout and lose your temper with any Thai. You will come off worst if you do. Perhaps you should consider living somewhere else.

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, BangkokReady said:

I'm glad you feel that way, but he will always be a foreigner with Thai citizenship.  He will never be "Thai".

I agree... IF he [Neeranam] looks non-Thai, by other Thai’s he will always be considered a foreigner with Thai Citizenship. There are also area’s of ‘Legal’ discrimination.

 

For example, my Son is Thai (and British), he will face conscription, but he cannot become an officer in the Thai Armed Forces because one of his parents is not Thai. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

"I would have unleashed a verbal tirade on her".  So would I.

you are just a nice guy, I guess.

[richard_smith237]

54 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

One of the most pathetic posts I have ever read on these pages.

You judgment is clearly overwhelmingly muddied - he was refused medication he needed - how is that possibly pathetic. 

 

54 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Thais/Siamese are generally a helpful bunch, particularly where illness is concerned, a good example of what you call Thainess stands for.

IF this were true the Op would not have received any discriminatory treatment at a time of medical need - he would have been treated fairly and allowed to pay for the medication he was told he needed. 

 

54 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

And, by the way, don't shout and lose your temper with any Thai. You will come off worst if you do.

No where in this thread has the Op stated he shouted or lost his temper - You have projected something which did not exist to created a strawman fallacy supporting your false impression that there must be a reason for the discriminatory treatment against the Op. 

 

54 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Perhaps you should consider living somewhere else.

Oh gawd.... the highly unimaginative and wholly moronic “IF you don’t like it go elsewhere” response, the go-to response of fools who lack the intelligence to post a valid counter argument to justify the negative. 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

"I would have unleashed a verbal tirade on her".  So would I.

I think the Dr. was perhaps stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

 

I would certainly have liked to have spoken to someone in a position of decision making power and asked for an explanation of the discrimination. 

 

I would want to look the decision maker in the eye and ask them why my health is threatened by their discriminatory decision - the reality is such people would never be available to face those directly impacted by their discriminatory decisions, they are protected by ‘face’ and the ‘kraeng-Jai’ of those subservient to them. 

 

There is the additional facet that the Op was particularly unwell, vulnerable and certainly in no position to handle any other discussion than that of his symptoms and his immediate medical care. 

 

This hospital and its policy makers have failed in their duty of care to provide medical services. 

 

I very much suspect that the refusal to provide the Op with medication the Dr wanted to prescribe to him may actually be an illegal action. 

 

------

 

It is this such behavior that drags Thailand down and continues to prevent it from evolving beyond a developing nation.... Perhaps this is what ’Thainess’ is....    It is the absence of consideration hidden behind a thin veil of platitude and the Thai smile... 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by richard_smith237

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, 1FinickyOne said:

you are just a nice guy, I guess.

You guess right, a very nice guy who does not take any cr@p from anyone.

[Rockhopper]

True Thainess can be summed up in one phrase, "No common sense."

[1FinickyOne]

28 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

You guess right, a very nice guy who does not take any cr@p from anyone.

Wow.. A tough guy too... screaming at a nurse probably half his size who is just doing her job and maybe went above and beyond to bring it to a supervisor... trying to help him... sounds like he was giving the cr@p, not her... 

[NoshowJones]

2 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Wow.. A tough guy too... screaming at a nurse probably half his size who is just doing her job and maybe went above and beyond to bring it to a supervisor... trying to help him... sounds like he was giving the cr@p, not her... 

It would depend on how the nurse was doing her job, if she was talking nice without raising her voice, I would talk nice back without raising my voice. If she was raising her voice to emphasis authority I would not be slow in raising my voice back.

[Neeranam]

6 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

Immigrants don't pay anything,most Thais don't pay anything or only a few baht  at government hospitals, farangs pay full price and pay cash,on top of that farangs get overcharged because they are farangs,and yes this is racistic and greedy.

What do you mean 'immigrants don't pay  anything'? 

[DJ54]

Could it not have been about Nationality and based on unknown risk do to brand or…..

I go to Government hospital monthly for heart condition and never been treated 

inferior….
 

I didn’t choose the hospital on costs it was where I was sent by local hospital. 
 

Great service and very caring and professional staff… I’d highly recommend it. 

[1FinickyOne]

Just now, possum1931 said:

It would depend on how the nurse was doing her job, if she was talking nice without raising her voice, I would talk nice back without raising my voice. If she was raising her voice to emphasis authority I would not be slow in raising my voice back.

So, I was right the first time, a nice guy - Fluffy didn't say she raised her voice, he just didn't like the results which were not up to her... 

[richard_smith237]

12 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Wow.. A tough guy too... screaming at a nurse probably half his size who is just doing her job and maybe went above and beyond to bring it to a supervisor... trying to help him... sounds like he was giving the cr@p, not her... 

Perhaps, 1FinickyOne, you are unable to give negative feedback without screaming at anyone... 

 

But, for many of us, we can object and give negative feedback (also known as ‘not taking any cr@p’) without screaming and behaving like a juvenile child. 

 

In this case the Op may well have voiced his understandable annoyance. It's ok to show people that we are not happy with something when facing poor or discriminatory treatment. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by richard_smith237

[peterrabbit]

4 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Wow.. A tough guy too... screaming at a nurse probably half his size who is just doing her job and maybe went above and beyond to bring it to a supervisor... trying to help him... sounds like he was giving the cr@p, not her... 

If you ever bothered to read the original post you will see I never screamed at anyone because I was too sick to argue with anyone. I was too sick to even argue over the 600b they charged me for the paracetamol and cough medicine. If I had not been so sick I would have demanded an explanation from Her boss at the very least. If I had not been so sick and not thinking straight then maybe I would have chosen to go straight to a private hospital instead but having taken my family to the Government hospital for their medication two days before I thought this was the place to go. How wrong a decision that turned out to be.

It was a doctor NOT a nurse and She was being forced by her superiors to deny me, against her clinical judgement, necessary medication because of a policy decision by senior management to not prescribe antiviral Covid medicines to Falangs.

 

Why don't just stop distorting the facts.

 

 

 

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, BangkokReady said:

I'm glad you feel that way, but he will always be a foreigner with Thai citizenship.  He will never be "Thai".

You seem to have an issue with me being a naturalized Thai.

Do you think Bob Hope(first who came to mind) was American? If 'yes', I can only imagine that it is a racist thing.

How was Arnold Swarchzenegger allowed to be Governor if he isn't American?