Yellow book troubles reporting to DOPA

[Billy Bloggs]

I have replied to another thread here but what I would like to know is how much trouble would I bring upon myself if I  reported my local office to DOPA for not issuing me with one, has anyone ever done this or is it just better to try 1 more time and then walk away if unsuccessful, I would rather have one as it would have been helpful during the pandemic(not it as such but what it leads to a Pink ID card).

 

I will say it again Im ex-military so I know how to be patient and will wait and wait.

[soi3eddie]

Here we go again, undoubtedly on the benefits on having a yellow book with many comments to follow. 

In your case, I would suggest that unless you have a similarly determined Thai fighting for you, then there is little to no chance of you ever getting your local amphur office to issue a yellow book. No matter who you complain to. 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by soi3eddie

[The Fugitive]

In my case, the people on the Customer Service desk and their supervisor were the problem. As soon as we spoke to their boss, I got my yellow book/pink card. Could you find out who is in charge and approach them (preferably friendly and unofficially) say at some local event?        

[Dogmatix]

Under the Civil Registration Act district offices have an obligation to register all foreigners residing in their districts. The interpretation of “residing” seems to be generally taken as being on longer term visas, eg NON-B and marriage and retirement extensions. Your DO is in breach of the law for not registering you. The problem is that DO heads are allowed to operate like little hitlers and often come up with their own laws.

 

If you want to pursue it, you could write to BORA in Bkk which supervises DOs. If they ignore the letter, you could sue the head of registrations at your DO in the Administrative Court which handles disputes between private citizens (including foreigners) and government departments. This is a big hassle for you but also for government officials who get sued and they often have to keep going to court hearings in retirement as cases drag on. So they are generally scared of getting sued there.

 

First of all I would recruit a lawyer or any well educated, knowledgeable Thai to go along with you and ask to see the head of registrations to sort out a misunderstanding. Show him the relevant section of the Civil Registration Act and ask him to explain why he thinks your case is not covered in the law. 
 

A work around that has been done in similar cases would be to get a Thai friend in another district to register you in their household and then transfer to your own district. I don’t think they can refuse to transfer someone who is already on a tabien baan, as there are specific regulations for this and they are not allowed to “disappear” people already registered. People who cannot be registered  in a specific household, eg when a householder reports someone has left their household but there is no corresponding report of their new household or new borns reported by hospitals but not yet registered in family household, have to be registered in the district’s central pool of people registered but unattributed to a household. I think it would be a headache for your DO and/or the one  you leave if your DO refused to register in a household a person already registered somewhere else.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Dogmatix

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

A work around that has been done in similar cases would be to get a Thai friend in another district to register you in their household and then transfer to your own district.

The yellow book is separate from the blue book and foreigns can’t be in the blue book so what you are suggesting seems to be a non starter, unless you are suggesting a yellow book in a different district.

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

Under the Civil Registration Act district offices have an obligation to register all foreigners residing in their districts. The interpretation of “residing” seems to be generally taken as being on longer term visas, eg NON-B and marriage and retirement extensions. Your DO is in breach of the law for not registering you. The problem is that DO heads are allowed to operate like little hitlers and often come up with their own laws.

 

If you want to pursue it, you could write to BORA in Bkk which supervises DOs. If they ignore the letter, you could sue the head of registrations at your DO in the Administrative Court which handles disputes between private citizens (including foreigners) and government departments. This is a big hassle for you but also for government officials who get sued and they often have to keep going to court hearings in retirement as cases drag on. So they are generally scared of getting sued there.

 

First of all I would recruit a lawyer or any well educated, knowledgeable Thai to go along with you and ask to see the head of registrations to sort out a misunderstanding. Show him the relevant section of the Civil Registration Act and ask him to explain why he thinks your case is not covered in the law. 
 

A work around that has been done in similar cases would be to get a Thai friend in another district to register you in their household and then transfer to your own district. I don’t think they can refuse to transfer someone who is already on a tabien baan, as there are specific regulations for this and they are not allowed to “disappear” people already registered. People who cannot be registered  in a specific household, eg when a householder reports someone has left their household but there is no corresponding report of their new household or new borns reported by hospitals but not yet registered in family household, have to be registered in the district’s central pool of people registered but unattributed to a household. I think it would be a headache for your DO and/or the one  you leave if your DO refused to register in a household a person already registered somewhere else.

A quick search for the civil registration act shows this (few websites came up, all basically said the same): https://www.juslaws.com/business-commercial/thai-civil-registration

 

A Thai person residing in Thailand must be registered in a house book. Without such registration that person cannot get a Thai national ID card, a passport, a driver's license and many other services.

There is no such obligation for non Thai people residing in Thailand to be registered in a house book. Moreover, apart for those who hold permanent residence, non Thais cannot be registered in the blue House book and can only be registered in a yellow book which is issued in parallel to the blue book (can't issue a yellow book for a place that doesn't already have a blue book).

So I think you're reference to the registration act as an obligation of the district office to register all non Thais residing in the district in a house book is wrong. The actual obligation for non Thai registration of place of residence is by the immigration department and by using TM forms such as TM30. That has nothing to do with District office.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

The situation with an amphur refusing to issue a yellow book will usually need

16 hours ago, Billy Bloggs said:

to be patient and will wait and wait.

Until the head of the amphur changes.
 

A way that may help to change the mind of the office officials would be to recruit a high level government officer to accompany you, that, along with a contribution to the tea fund may be of assistance.

[TigerandDog]

Just take your village head with you and have him insist on speaking with the DO head to have you issued with a yellow book if the counter staff employee refuses to do so.  If the OP went in on his own then I can understand why he was refused, as it is mandatory to have your village head and 2 witnesses accompany you when you apply for a yellow book.

[Billy Bloggs]

22 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

In my case, the people on the Customer Service desk and their supervisor were the problem. As soon as we spoke to their boss, I got my yellow book/pink card. Could you find out who is in charge and approach them (preferably friendly and unofficially) say at some local event?        

The problem is the guy sitting at the back on the right, the one on the left lives in our moo bahn and was ready to help only trouble was he wasnt there when we went back and we got the guy on the right(grrrrr), the girls at the desk were semi helpful but maybe have never had to do oneand passed it off.

[Billy Bloggs]

2 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

Just take your village head with you and have him insist on speaking with the DO head to have you issued with a yellow book if the counter staff employee refuses to do so.  If the OP went in on his own then I can understand why he was refused, as it is mandatory to have your village head and 2 witnesses accompany you when you apply for a yellow book.

It actually shouldnt be, the witnesses yeah maybe, we have lots of those, we live in a moo baan and the nearest village would have diddly squat knowledge of us.

[Billy Bloggs]

Thanks to all your efforts, yes I could go the lawyer route but would rather get it done without one(I do know one who is very helpful and will be doing some work for me soon registering me as the owner of the house(which before the screamers come out I didnt say the land just the building) which can be done.

So I may report back after we front up on the 17th( I will be recording the process) with permission of cause.

[TigerandDog]

29 minutes ago, Billy Bloggs said:

It actually shouldnt be, the witnesses yeah maybe, we have lots of those, we live in a moo baan and the nearest village would have diddly squat knowledge of us.

The village head is mandatory as he has to sign books in the DO confirming you actually live in the village.

[soi3eddie]

5 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

The village head is mandatory as he has to sign books in the DO confirming you actually live in the village.

Not the case if in a city such as Bangkok. I took my condo Juristic Person manager and GF as witnesses. There is no village head here.

[soi3eddie]

My experience on getting the yellow book here in Phaya Thai, Bangkok was slow. I got the impression that they really just couldn't be bothered. Yes, they knew what to do as they showed me documents from others who had the yellow book. It took 3 visits over nearly 3 months in 2019 to satisfy all their requirements. Most bizarre was a complete immigration record of all my entries and exits from the country (they even gave me a copy of someone elses to prove it was possible). Quite what that shows beats me as what if it was my first ever entry? I had a Non-O visa and retirement extension already. Good luck to the OP and hope your efforts are fruitful. I'd say without a Thai GF helping, they would have just blanked me. These officials don't deserve their positions IMO. I did ask GF if some extra fee for them would help but the answer was no.

 

[Kalasin Jo]

6 hours ago, Billy Bloggs said:

the girls at the desk were semi helpful but maybe have never had to do oneand passed it off.

I'm afraid that this is very common in Thai customer service, particularly but not exclusively with females,. Not sure if this is just with foreigners or with thais too. Smiles and semi helpful then if they don't know what to do with you they pretend not to understand you (or actually don't understand you!) lose interest and drift away perhaps with a " so sorry". I guess seeking help from a more senior colleague such as a manager is considered too much loss of face for them and it certainly is if you demand they do so.

Loss of face is a huge problem for all Thais and can totally stymie progress to a satisfactory solution to the customers needs. One has to be so careful not inadvertently let alone deliberately provoke a loss of face!

[JeffersLos]

The law is there in Thai.

 

Print it out.

 

Put it on the desk along with the phone number of the ombudsman and a phone, then call the ombudsman and explain that you don't understand why you are being refused the yellow house book, and could they ask the officer for the explanation. 

[The Fugitive]

10 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

I did ask GF if some extra fee for them would help but the answer was no.

Unusual and morally good I suppose. However, it didn't help you. Thanks for posting. Very interesting and helpful.

[edwinchester]

Must have been 12 years at least since I applied for a Yellow Book at my local Amphur and at first they refused to issue one at all, wouldn't even begin the process. As I wanted an easy proof of address wifey agreed to call their head office in Bangkok. Bangkok said something about buffalo's in the village not knowing their job and gave our Amphur a call telling them what to do. It turned out the lady responsible in our office had no idea how to do it, was scared of making a mistake so not issuing one meant she wouldn't make a mistake. As soon as she knew the process I was issued my book within a week.

[digger70]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:56 PM, Billy Bloggs said:

how much trouble would I bring upon myself if I  reported my local office to DOPA for not issuing me with one,

Could be lots of trouble . Did you try to ask what you could do to make them change their mind ?  couple thousand Baht could save a hell of a lot of trouble.

Like they say : it worked for us. 

[The Fugitive]

49 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Could be lots of trouble . Did you try to ask what you could do to make them change their mind ?  couple thousand Baht could save a hell of a lot of trouble.

Like they say : it worked for us. 

Thai's like social events. Free food and drink (even karaoke too). Try inviting the Customer Service team, supervisor and manager to your house for the evening? 

[Billy Bloggs]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:44 PM, TigerandDog said:

The village head is mandatory as he has to sign books in the DO confirming you actually live in the village.

Not according to the DOPA site which I finally manged to navigate and it only mentions them if there is trouble over paperwork about identity it says 2 witnesses in the first instance.

[Billy Bloggs]

11 hours ago, Billy Bloggs said:

Not according to the DOPA site which I finally manged to navigate and it only mentions them if there is trouble over paperwork about identity it says 2 witnesses in the first instance.

Just to be clear here is the DOPA site listing

Adding names in the case of foreigners with passports entering Thailand which the period of permission to stay in Thailand has not yet expired would like to add the name to the house registration, Thor Ror 13

place of contact

Provincial
 - District Registration Office
 - Local Registration Office 

documents/evidence used

1. Copy of house registration
, 1 original copy of the owner,
remarks (of the house to be added)
2. National ID card in case the applicant is not the applicant
, 1 original copy,
remarks (if any)
3. Passport of the applicant please add name and proof of permission to stay in the kingdom (visa), translated into Thai by a reliable institution,
1 original copy

fee

-

period

30 days

note

1. The applicant is the host or the applicant.
2. Witnesses are at least 2 persons who can certify and verify the identity of the applicant. The report is unlawful, unlawful, or undercover. or with a list of statements that are wrong from reality Let the registrar conduct an investigation of the facts. Investigate witnesses and circumstantial witnesses and complete consideration within 60 days.
(2) In case of complexity or doubt in practice, legal matters, or examination of important documents Must conduct discussions at the Central Registration Office. must be completed within 90 days (consultations must be submitted to the Central Registration Office within 30 days from the date of receipt of the matter) through the Provincial Registration Office to submit to the Central Registry Office in order to respond to such discussions further

[Billy Bloggs]

Just as a new add to this, it is still an ongoing saga, my wife contacted someone in the Bureau of Registration Administration(BORA) yesterday and we were told to go to Buri Ram Amphur and see if we could get some help from them after the guy handling our request for a yellow book threw my wives phone back at her when she said someone from BORA wanted to speak to them. Not much help really as the big position there said just go see the big village head( after they had told us it would be easy to do in Buri Ram), all of this came about after we had our 2 witnesses seen, then a government employee our next door negihbour a police officer, then the local village head and finally the big village head who we have tried to contact to no avail)  all of this taking up more and more time.

So the other guy wont work with us now and the new guy who my wife shielded me from she is worried that I may lose it with them is a little better but not much as he said he would get it done in 10 days and we should be polite and go and see the big village head not just ring him, what my wife should have asked how are we supposed to know all these procedures when they arent stated anywhere.

[The Fugitive]

2 hours ago, Billy Bloggs said:

Just as a new add to this, it is still an ongoing saga, my wife contacted someone in the Bureau of Registration Administration(BORA) yesterday and we were told to go to Buri Ram Amphur and see if we could get some help from them after the guy handling our request for a yellow book threw my wives phone back at her when she said someone from BORA wanted to speak to them. Not much help really as the big position there said just go see the big village head( after they had told us it would be easy to do in Buri Ram), all of this came about after we had our 2 witnesses seen, then a government employee our next door negihbour a police officer, then the local village head and finally the big village head who we have tried to contact to no avail)  all of this taking up more and more time.

So the other guy wont work with us now and the new guy who my wife shielded me from she is worried that I may lose it with them is a little better but not much as he said he would get it done in 10 days and we should be polite and go and see the big village head not just ring him, what my wife should have asked how are we supposed to know all these procedures when they arent stated anywhere.

An incredibly tedious and frustrating application. Flinging your wife's mobile back at her is totally out of order too. The only things I can think of are to either; a) Ask a Visa Agent if they can assist (there will be a fee to pay of course). b) Register yourself at a friend's address that comes under a different Amphur. Once registered anywhere else in Thailand, transferring to your real address is a much simpler process.

[OJAS]

On 11/16/2022 at 7:46 PM, Billy Bloggs said:

proof of permission to stay in the kingdom (visa), translated into Thai by a reliable institution

So they require your latest extension of stay stamp which has been placed in your passport by a Thai immigration officer at a Thai immigration office to be translated into Thai. Absolutely speechless!!

[soi3eddie]

From the posts above, and my own experience, it seems that some Amphur offices go as far out of their way as possible to frustrate the issuance of legitimate documents (yellow book and pink ID card) to those who qualify 100%. Mine wanted a full list from immigration of evry entry/departure I had ever made from the Kingdom (what would happen if I was first time here?). There really needs to be uniform application of official, head office rules not only to these items, but also to issuance of qualifying visa extension requirements. I never expect it to happen, so we will all just have to accept the situation as the dinosaurs will never change their xenophobic beliefs. After many hoops, hurdles and numerous months of sloth like movement, I did get my yellow book and pink ID card a few years ago. Other than registering a vehicle and proof of addres for visa extensions, they are of little use at all. A few discounts level non-discrimatory pricings at attractions (where a Thai driving licence also suffices) and not even being accepted at some money exchange desks or by domestic airlines. Many hotels want only a passport too these days. OP: save yourself the butt hurt and just chill with an easier life here than in many western countries.

 

[The Fugitive]

8 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

From the posts above, and my own experience, it seems that some Amphur offices go as far out of their way as possible to frustrate the issuance of legitimate documents (yellow book and pink ID card) to those who qualify 100%. Mine wanted a full list from immigration of evry entry/departure I had ever made from the Kingdom (what would happen if I was first time here?). There really needs to be uniform application of official, head office rules not only to these items, but also to issuance of qualifying visa extension requirements. I never expect it to happen, so we will all just have to accept the situation as the dinosaurs will never change their xenophobic beliefs. After many hoops, hurdles and numerous months of sloth like movement, I did get my yellow book and pink ID card a few years ago. Other than registering a vehicle and proof of addres for visa extensions, they are of little use at all. A few discounts level non-discrimatory pricings at attractions (where a Thai driving licence also suffices) and not even being accepted at some money exchange desks or by domestic airlines. Many hotels want only a passport too these days. OP: save yourself the butt hurt and just chill with an easier life here than in many western countries.

Totally agree! Took me 4 years to get my Yellow Book and Pink ID card. Only then by chance. Managed very well until then. Only used for Retirement Extensions.

[MJCM]

6 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Totally agree! Took me 4 years to get my Yellow Book and Pink ID card. Only then by chance. Managed very well until then. Only used for Retirement Extensions.

Please explain the "Only used for Retirement Extensions." part of this.

 

I just did my Retirement Extension and YHB was NOT needed

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Totally agree! Took me 4 years to get my Yellow Book and Pink ID card. Only then by chance. Managed very well until then. Only used for Retirement Extensions.

I threw in the towel on any attempt to obtain a yellow book years ago when, after being given the dreaded "Bangkok Runaround" by my amphur (entailing a trip to the British Embassy to obtain some letter or other followed by a lot of faffing around at the MOFA while we endeavoured to provide them with a version of the certified translation of said letter which they were eventually prepared to endorse), I fell at the final fence when some eagle-eyed so-and-so back at the amphur spotted that the transliteration of my surname in the translated Embassy letter did not exactly match my wife's as stated in her ID card and blue book! But this is a decision which I have never come to regret ever since - even for my retirement extensions the increasingly dog-eared TM30 notification slip in my passport has done the trick thus far as regards proof of address!

 

IMHO the yellow book and pink card are only of any intrinsic value to those seeking permanent residency or Thai citizenship, for which they are, I believe, prerequisites. That said, though, I might be tempted to have another crack at obtaining a yellow book and/or pink card if either were modified so as to be capable of including what I consider to be the most important piece of personal information in our case - namely the date when our current permission to stay in Thailand expires. But I'm not holding my breath for this to happen any time soon.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by OJAS

[The Fugitive]

6 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Please explain the "Only used for Retirement Extensions." part of this.

 

I just did my Retirement Extension and YHB was NOT needed

Until I was issued with my Yellow Book/Pink ID Card immigration asked for photocopies of my Thai wife's Blue House Book and her ID card. Now, they accept a photocopy of my Yellow House Book.