War erupts over Pheu Thai’s ฿600 minimum wage plan with the economy as the key election issue

[MrMojoRisin]

1 hour ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet there's nothing that grates against any such democratic order than to be forced into doing business with the government mafia oligarchy en lieu of an open and free market. 

Nobody was forced.

The farmers always had the option to sell their rice in the open market for less than the government was paying.

[ericthai]

On 12/9/2022 at 4:35 AM, ikke1959 said:

Put the one who are opposing this plan for 3 months on living on 10k a month and see how many will change their opinion. Easy to say if you don't have to struggle because you have a good salary and all kind of bebefits. Andbe fair if people have more to spend indeed the prices will go up as businesses are never willing to have less profits but people can buy more and that will increase the economy.

keep thinking like that. Prices go up higher than what you increased wages, that's the problem. 

 

Luckily I sold my company several years ago, but if I had to start paying more for labor I would've started investment in automated processes and get rid of the workers. Then more workers are out of jobs. 

 

There is a point where labor costs get too high and your only option is to invest in automation, reduce work force,  employ illegal workers (paying them less) or last resort move your production to different country.  

[MrMojoRisin]

7 hours ago, ericthai said:

keep thinking like that. Prices go up higher than what you increased wages, that's the problem. 

 

Luckily I sold my company several years ago, but if I had to start paying more for labor I would've started investment in automated processes and get rid of the workers. Then more workers are out of jobs. 

 

There is a point where labor costs get too high and your only option is to invest in automation, reduce work force,  employ illegal workers (paying them less) or last resort move your production to different country.  

Empty threats, businesses aren't charities - if they could reduce costs or do away with employees - they would regardless of whatever the minimum wage is.

 

The result of reducing employee exploitation is that poorly managed businesses will fold and well managed businesses will thrive.

 

Raising the minimum wage isn’t just pro worker; it is also pro economic growth.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by MrMojoRisin

[bang saen guy]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:22 PM, Orinoco said:

Easy,  They will put 250 baht more effort in every day they work. 

Don't be silly. Totally irrelevant. Makes sense to work less so they are not too tired to spend the surplus cash

Edited December 11, 2022 by bang saen guy

[herfiehandbag]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:50 PM, zzaa09 said:

Same as it ever was....

Which is not, never has been, and never will be, a reason for not making a change.

 

Change is being proposed. The people have already shown they want it.

Edited December 11, 2022 by herfiehandbag

[herfiehandbag]

The major opposition parties are proposing changes. They have before. Those proposed changes have always been stymied, in unconstitutional ways by a small entrenched wealthy establishment, who benefit from maintaining the status quo. 

 

Thailand is stuck with a low wage, almost serf like labour market. Productivity is low, but then given the pathetically low wages offered, one can hardly be surprised that is the case!

 

Pheu Thai are proposing to change that; in stages over four years. That is hardly going to produce the economics armageddon some here predict. In fact the dangers of economic stagnation due to a chronically depressed domestic market, struggling with low wages and debt are perhaps greater.

 

The progressive movement is proposing even greater changes to the status quo, both social and economic. Together with Pheu Thai, last time, they had a  majority of electoral support. The whole machinery of rigging both election and parliament prevented that.

 

The dangers of doing that a second time are also greater - the pressure for social and economic change could become more "kinetic".

 

On the last couple of occasions that it has looked as if a strong challenge to the established order was turning into a "fight to the death", a "respected referee" stepped in and calmed things. That is no longer an option. The forces of "the establishment", whilst they have numbers, are rotten with corruption and driven, and riven, by venal self interest. Publicly knowledge of that is widespread, particularly amongst the young. A fight without a referee could be brutal, but over quite quickly. 

 

The"established order" would not win it. Bad news for the manufacturers of vinyl backdrops, florists specialising in podium decorations and the tailors of tight uniforms.

Edited December 11, 2022 by herfiehandbag

[bkk6060]

So, in 5 years a graduate could make $700 a month?

This place will never get out of the semi third world status with such low wages. People will just be forced into more debt just to get by. Sad.

[MrMojoRisin]

46 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

So, in 5 years a graduate could make $700 a month?

This place will never get out of the semi third world status with such low wages. People will just be forced into more debt just to get by. Sad.

Almost as if it’s deliberately planned to be as it is. Why so many coups?

[Eleftheros]

22 hours ago, khunPer said:

Your comment is in level with what I also think; i.e. if a worker is not having productivity or skills enough to be worth 600 baht per day, the worker will become unemployed.

7-11 will become self-service very quickly.....

[Robin]

Election promises like this are the main reason why critical thinking is not taught in Thai schools.

Double the minimum wage, the government can pay it, they can make more money.  So esy to print more 1000 baht notes, and they do no cost much.

[zzaa09]

The everyday workplace stereotype does appear to be contradicting itself.......outside of those that independently work for themselves [excluding farmers] and are reasonably comfortable bringing in a daily profit, I'm witnessing working skilled tradesmen [employees] that can pull down B700 - B1,000 per day on any given day. 

 

As much of the discussions and angst regarding day wages, minimum wage and whatnot is almost always subliminally directed toward lower skilled labour as well as farm labour [always], might be noted that this segment of the working class requires much more of attention when we speak of living and fair wages. 

[ikke1959]

13 hours ago, ericthai said:

keep thinking like that. Prices go up higher than what you increased wages, that's the problem. 

 

Luckily I sold my company several years ago, but if I had to start paying more for labor I would've started investment in automated processes and get rid of the workers. Then more workers are out of jobs. 

 

There is a point where labor costs get too high and your only option is to invest in automation, reduce work force,  employ illegal workers (paying them less) or last resort move your production to different country.  

better no personnel or less anymore and automatic  processes,... it means more people has nothing or less to spend so that is a disaster for the economy. A bigger problem than the greed of the businessmen and investors who only want to see the profits going up year after.. It is a problem because Thailand doesn't have any social security system. The money goes to the 15 percentwealthy and super wealthy instead of being invested in the Thai people

[MrMojoRisin]

2 hours ago, Robin said:

Election promises like this are the main reason why critical thinking is not taught in Thai schools.

Double the minimum wage, the government can pay it, they can make more money.  So esy to print more 1000 baht notes, and they do no cost much.

Thailand has the potential to support faster and sustained income growth of rural households,” said Fabrizio Zarcone, World Bank Country Manager for Thailand. “

[2009]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:09 PM, khunPer said:

Where does the money for the pay rises come from..?

Uhm.....the business owner's pocket. Lol

 

And don't tell me they can't afford it cos that's BS.

 

For example, bars in Europe can pay their staff more an hour than Thai bars pay their staff a day, yet the cost of a drink isn't that much different.

 

Not to mention, in Europe, they have to pay higher taxes, more expensive utilities etc etc, yet they still make a profit!

 

In Thailand: 150+ baht drinks, cheap utilities, low tax, yet staff get only 300 a day!

 

Yeah, I know: rent. But you think rent is cheaper in the West? No, it isn't.

 

Thai businesses take a hand at their staff and their customers, even.

 

Time they paid up.

Edited December 11, 2022 by 2009

[PingRoundTheWorld]

12 minutes ago, 2009 said:

In Thailand: 150+ baht drinks, cheap utilities, low tax, yet staff get only 300 a day!

I don't know about you, but last I've been to a bar in my home country a vodka & coke was the equivalent of 730 baht, and you're expected to tip at least 10-15%. In Thailand a cheap vodka bottle (Smirnoff) at an upscale nightclub is 3000 baht everything included, in my home country I was quoted 9600 baht - not including mixers or service charge (15%). I also remember in Japan when we got a table at a nightclub it was 60,000 yen for 2 hours with 2 bottles, plus mixers and service charge 75,000 yen (19,000 baht) - and they literally kicked us off the table after 2 hours!

 

Pricing for nightlife in developed countries is extremely expensive to the point it's funny that you think it's comparable to Thailand. 150 baht beer drinkers are the smallest revenue source for a nightclub - it's heavier drinkers and bottles that actually keep the lights on and what you need to compare.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

On 12/9/2022 at 4:52 AM, webfact said:

฿600 a day minimum age for all Thai workers by 2027 and a minimum monthly salary of ฿25,000 for graduates with a bachelor’s degree

End result: massive unemployment. Unless absolutely necessary, businesses will not hire anyone. Sure- they still need to run the business, but they'll just make 50 people do the same work done today by 100. Don't like it? good luck trying to find another job elsewhere as there'll be a tsunami of job seekers due to massive layoffs. Essentially they'll keep only very productive employees and lay off everyone else.

 

I'm actually not sure about inflation - on one hand it will cost more to produce the same products - and that *always* gets rolled over to consumers - but on the other hand there'll be so many people unemployed and in poverty that purchasing power overall will probably go down, limiting the ability to increase prices.

 

Bottom line: economic disaster.

Another consuqeuence: things like prostitution and other under-the-table professions will flourish because if now her choice is factory/farm or sell herself - now it won't be a choice at all.

[2009]

9 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

I don't know about you, but last I've been to a bar in my home country a vodka & coke was the equivalent of 730 baht, and you're expected to tip at least 10-15%. In Thailand a cheap vodka bottle (Smirnoff) at an upscale nightclub is 3000 baht everything included, in my home country I was quoted 9600 baht - not including mixers or service charge (15%). I also remember in Japan when we got a table at a nightclub it was 60,000 yen for 2 hours with 2 bottles, plus mixers and service charge 75,000 yen (19,000 baht) - and they literally kicked us off the table after 2 hours!

 

Pricing for nightlife in developed countries is extremely expensive to the point it's funny that you think it's comparable to Thailand. 150 baht beer drinkers are the smallest revenue source for a nightclub - it's heavier drinkers and bottles that actually keep the lights on and what you need to compare.

In the UK, a pint is like 4 pounds or less. That's like 160 baht.

 

And that's for a nice pint of Belgian beer for example, not Asian <deleted>.

 

Down Sukhumvit, you'll pay 150 a pint after 8pm. 120 a small bottle is normal.

 

You are not expected to tip just for sitting at a bar in the UK.

 

Restaurants, that's different.

[2009]

7 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Bottom line: economic disaster.

Another consuqeuence: things like prostitution and other under-the-table professions will flourish because if now her choice is factory/farm or sell herself - now it won't be a choice at all.

There would be less prostitution.

 

The reason why there is so much prostitution now is cos for an uneducated village girl the choice is:

 

1. 300 a day (12 hour days)

2. Make a fortune slingin' your hoi

[Fab5BKK]

OK, please allow me to be a little bit provocative...

 

Giving a mere pay rise won't achieve much on the long run. What is needed is a solid program with some key action points (and associated metrics to evaluate the progress made).

 

A few tips to improve people's quality of life,

 

Statements:

1. Thailand is a rich country BUT the distribution of wealth isn't quite right

2. Monopolies (or duopolies) are the norm

3. Corruption is rampant

4. Barriers to entry are standard practice

 

Action points:

1. Seize ALL assets linked with corruption and redistribute them to people (through infrastructure programs such as: roads, railways, education, health, etc.)

2. Fire ALL people linked with corruption

3. Stop and nationalize ALL companies involved in monopolies & duopolies

4. Open the thai market to competition and encourage thai companies to become more competitive within the domestic market and on the international ones.

5. Develop "Areas of Excellence" focused on "next-generation needs" (venture between universities & industries, research centers, etc.)

 

I know, it's a, very, long way to go... BUT, where there's a will...

 

I told you I will be provocative...

[2009]

54 minutes ago, Fab5BKK said:

OK, please allow me to be a little bit provocative...

 

Giving a mere pay rise won't achieve much on the long run. What is needed is a solid program with some key action points (and associated metrics to evaluate the progress made).

 

A few tips to improve people's quality of life,

 

Statements:

1. Thailand is a rich country BUT the distribution of wealth isn't quite right

2. Monopolies (or duopolies) are the norm

3. Corruption is rampant

4. Barriers to entry are standard practice

 

Action points:

1. Seize ALL assets linked with corruption and redistribute them to people (through infrastructure programs such as: roads, railways, education, health, etc.)

2. Fire ALL people linked with corruption

3. Stop and nationalize ALL companies involved in monopolies & duopolies

4. Open the thai market to competition and encourage thai companies to become more competitive within the domestic market and on the international ones.

5. Develop "Areas of Excellence" focused on "next-generation needs" (venture between universities & industries, research centers, etc.)

 

I know, it's a, very, long way to go... BUT, where there's a will...

 

I told you I will be provocative...

You provoked a good yawn ????

[Fab5BKK]

41 minutes ago, 2009 said:

You provoked a good yawn ????

would you dare to develop?

[ericthai]

12 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Empty threats, businesses aren't charities - if they could reduce costs or do away with employees - they would regardless of whatever the minimum wage is.

 

The result of reducing employee exploitation is that poorly managed businesses will fold and well managed businesses will thrive.

 

Raising the minimum wage isn’t just pro worker; it is also pro economic growth.

 

So how will farmers make out paying 600B a day for a worker?

Growing rice, they make very little money.

 

Sure big companies can handle it and make less profit, but it's the smaller companies that will fold because it gets to a point your operation costs are too high doesn't matter how well you manage a company.

 

Don't get me wrong Thais should get paid more, but doubling the minimum wage again, more jobs will be lost to Vietnam and Cambodia. 

[ericthai]

4 hours ago, 2009 said:

In the UK, a pint is like 4 pounds or less. That's like 160 baht.

 

And that's for a nice pint of Belgian beer for example, not Asian <deleted>.

 

Down Sukhumvit, you'll pay 150 a pint after 8pm. 120 a small bottle is normal.

 

You are not expected to tip just for sitting at a bar in the UK.

 

Restaurants, that's different.

It's taxes, the taxes are much higher in Thailand. 

[MrMojoRisin]

7 hours ago, ericthai said:

So how will farmers make out paying 600B a day for a worker?

Growing rice, they make very little money.

The industry will have to consolidate.

Flushing excess labour out of agriculture is one of the aims of this PT policy.
 

Outside of Bangkok, Thailand is very underdeveloped. Once PT enact their policies, there’ll pretty soon be an available workforce to begin rectifying this.
 

7 hours ago, ericthai said:

Sure big companies can handle it and make less profit, but it's the smaller companies that will fold because it gets to a point your operation costs are too high doesn't matter how well you manage a company.

Sounds exactly how the free market is meant to work.
 

7 hours ago, ericthai said:

Don't get me wrong Thais should get paid more, but doubling the minimum wage again, more jobs will be lost to Vietnam and Cambodia. 

How are the Vietnamese and Cambodians going to take Thai rice farming jobs?

[teacherofwoe]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:09 PM, khunPer said:

Where does the money for the pay rises come from..?

The cost of goods and services. The last time the minimum wage was increased the cost of living went up for all. 

[zzaa09]

23 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Almost as if it’s deliberately planned to be as it is. Why so many coups?

Are you inquiring rhetorically? Understanding the base reasons behind the numerous [and omnipresent] coups and a little knowledge of contemporary Thai history might aid. 

 

Consider who or what circle benefits from protective coups and a strong and loyal military presence. 

[MrMojoRisin]

25 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Are you inquiring rhetorically? Understanding the base reasons behind the numerous [and omnipresent] coups and a little knowledge of contemporary Thai history might aid. 

 

Consider who or what circle benefits from protective coups and a strong and loyal military presence. 

Rhetorical.

 

“If you see a turtle on a fence post, you know it didn’t get there by itself”

- Bill Clinton

 

It is no accident Thailand is as she is.

[phetphet]

Just because they promise it, doesn't mean they have to keep that promise. They can always come up with an excuse not to pay.

Economy not doing as well as expected. Other social costs must take priority. etc.

[MrMojoRisin]

34 minutes ago, phetphet said:

Just because they promise it, doesn't mean they have to keep that promise. They can always come up with an excuse not to pay.

Economy not doing as well as expected. Other social costs must take priority. etc.

Just because someone voted for them in one election it doesn’t mean they will vote for them in the following election.

 

Elections are practically the only recourse the average citizen has to keep politicians reasonably honest.

 

Can you guess why one side prefers coups to elections?

[PingRoundTheWorld]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:23 PM, 2009 said:

In the UK, a pint is like 4 pounds or less. That's like 160 baht.

OK - and how much do hard drinks/cocktails and bottles cost? that's what matters for nightlife establishments. If you're comparing a Thai beer bar to a UK bar/restaurant, how much extra does the UK bar make on food that the Thai beer bar isn't? (not to mention many of the beer bar workers rely on lady drinks and other "alternative" sources of revenue which evens things out too)

 

On 12/11/2022 at 1:29 PM, 2009 said:

The reason why there is so much prostitution now is cos for an uneducated village girl the choice is:

1. 300 a day (12 hour days)

2. Make a fortune slingin' your hoi

Yes, but now her choice would be ONLY slinglin' hoi, because there won't be any available factory/farming jobs, because there'll be fewer factory/farm jobs overall. Since you don't seem to get it, here's a list of why there will be fewer jobs open:

1. Many businesses will simply close - if a business now spends 30k a day employing 100 employees and makes 50k a day in revenue, doubling it's labor cost to 60k means the business will shut down, period.

2. More employers will choose to hire under the table and/or hire illegal workers below minimum wage.

3. Some employers will invest in automation, robotics, machinery, and other means that reduce employee count. If it costs 30k a day to employ 100 people and 50k a day to finance a machine that'll do the same job - if you increase labor cost to 60k a day they'll choose the machine.

 

It's really economics 101 - supply and demand and equilibrium - when you mess with the labor market on the scale of doubling the lower end of salaries the direct and immediate result will always be massive job shortage and unemployment. We're not talking a moderate 10-20% increase here (which is warranted and should be fine) - we are talking a 100% increase from today to tomorrow which is guaranteed to whack some businesses and jobs out of existence. That really is the stupid thing with all social justice warriers who demand minimum wage increases - instead of going for a moderate approach like 10% per year increase for X years, they want the whole cake upfront 50-100% immediate increase - that's not something the market is prepared for or able to deal with. Hello unemployment.