EV; seeking advice or suggestions.

[Thailand J]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

A year ago maybe you would have range anxiety, not today, you are never further than 150km from an MG DC SuperCharger and if you add in all the vendors, a lot less than that.

I am waiting for tomorrow's EV.

 

[Boomer6969]

1 minute ago, Thailand J said:

I am waiting for tomorrow's EV.

Absolutely, stick to ICE for another 5 years at least. Forget hybrid, burn E20 and use public transport if living in Bangkok.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, malathione said:

Not yet but hopefully that will be rectified in the not too distant future????

As stated, many (all) of us EV owners, have stated, they are not for everyone, though as you point out, does fit the OP's profile on planned use.   Especially if owning house & going solar.

 

And yes, agree there are a few, very few areas of TH, that CS may not be available, or need to plan ahead to verify.  No argument with that, though would affect very few people.

 

I've stated they definitely are not for 'working' over the road folks, or simply extremely impatient people, who need to be somewhere as soon as possible.  I myself prefer to smell the coffee with a view on my journeys.  Usually enjoy that, more than some destinations.

 

"EVs ARE NOT FOR IMPATIENT PEOPLE:

... driving 100+ kph, range factor

... 5 hrs driving/petrol/5hrs driving, 30min-45min CS stop2, ever so often will not be for you."

https://aseannow.com/topic/1276247-ev-owners-…-real-life-experience-help-thread/page/4/#comment-17756935

 

[KhunLA]

For the OP, took the liberty to see just how far Phayao is from other areas, from Gmaps:

Chiang Rai 102 kms

Chiang Mai 206 kms, with CSs closer, if needed.

Nan 137 kms

Lampang 188 kms

Phrae 175

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

Anyone considering an EV, do listen to those that have them, as we seem to love them.

 

Those that don't have them, and warn or complain about them, are talking from sheer ignorance.

 

Some of the silly BS, anti-Ev'ers have spewed:

... They'll blow up if hitting a speed bump hard, yes, someone actually posted that.

... No CS infrastructure

... they can't get wet

... they catch fire and or blow up in an accident

... end of battery warranty, you have to replace the battery pack

... they depreciate to nothing in short time

... cost 20+k baht to replace/service the battery

... nobody available to service them

... they'll be obsolete when the next new 'energy' driven cars are made

... they are so expensive to buy

... double your journey time on long trips to charge

... you have to Q up and wait for hours to charge

... most of the CS are broken and not maintained

... the grid will collapse because of them

... they'll be banned, as taking too much from the grid

... EV batteries are no good in TH, due to high temperatures

... the list is endless ... pure silliness.

 

Avoid the silliness, by doing what I do, add them to your ignore list.  Half my ignore list (5 pages now), are anti-EV'ers & anti-Solar folks.

 

I have solar, best investment ever.

Have 3 EVs: car, motorcycle, DIY ebike, and love them all.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I hope the OP listens to current EV owners, instead of the BS coming from anti-EV'ers.

I am not anti-EV, they have their place in the automotive world. I am pragmatic in assessing their advantages and disadvantages.

 

You can post facts in support of the running costs of EV's, which are true. I can post facts which demonstrate the OP is financially better off sticking with what he has, which are equally true. Calling those facts BS is both ignorant and arrogant.

 

As for putting people on your ignore list because they disagree with you on matters of fact - pathetic.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Lacessit

[BKKBike09]

22 hours ago, Robin said:

At the moment I drive a Vios, bought new 5-6 years ago, and still going well.  When i have o replace it, i would like o consider Electric, but do not know if it would suit me.

MY car use is for trips with wife to local town or shops, with occasional longer runs, but to 200 Km.   My thought are that an EV might be suitable, and to fit my car port with solar panels so that the car ban be charged when not is use, thus saving on running costs.

Is this a viable scheme?  

Are there people who would install the appropriate solar equipment? (and know what they are doing, not the typical Thai wannabe workman)

I live in Phayao, and have not noticed any charging points, so should I be considering a Hybrid with ICE as a back-up for longer trips.

I doubt if I will be buying a new car this year, but I would like more information so that I can consider for he future,

First thing is to decide when you're going to change your car. You say "not this year" but that's less a month left! If you're not going to change for another 2-3 years, then the whole EV situation here in Thailand will be so different that answers today will likely be irrelevant.

 

In 2-3 years there will be:

 

1. vastly more choice of EVs available in Thailand

2. many more people using them (and potentially competing for chargers at highway gas stations), so more body of knowledge and experience about practicality in Thailand (eg battery life in prolonged high temp environments)

3. more clarity about long term Thai government policy towards EV / ICE cars

 

If you're concerned about costs then, as other posters have said, best to keep the Vios. Cheap to run, cheap to insure, can be fixed pretty much anywhere.

 

The debate about fuel / electricity costs is somewhat artificial because both are subsidised in Thailand. That's not likely to change much over next few years because it is a hugely sensitive political issue. But MG, for instance, show 'cost savings' on their web site based on an outdated electricity price (elec pricing as of June 2020). Truth is that, as long as diesel is subsidised heavily, a diesel double cab pick up is as good a vehicle as any up country.

 

The debate about battery longevity is however germane. As another poster said, your ICE doesn't wear out in 8-10 years (usually). Who knows with a battery? My current car (a VW Scirocco) is 11 years old and the engine pulls like new. But if battery change is modular replacement, then cost of a new battery may be more than offset by maintenance savings over the past 8-10 years.  

 

I'm buying an EV now (a BYD Atto - supposed to get it this month) really out of curiosity. I live in BKK, most of my driving is urban with the odd 300 km round trip, I like the styling and I'm interested to see whether it really makes practical sense, since it's supposed to have a +400 km range. At THB 1.2 million it seems reasonably priced. The price of the Atto in Australia has just been hiked by AUD 3,000 so maybe a price hike is coming here. Then again, BYD are building a production facility for the Atto and other models here in Thailand; when that is up and running in a couple of years, maybe the price will be massively cheaper and I'll have to take a big re-sale hit.

 

All that said, I'll be keeping the Scirocco as well.

 

 

[motdaeng]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am not anti-EV, they have their place in the automotive world. I am pragmatic in assessing their advantages and disadvantages.

 

You can post facts in support of the running costs of EV's, which are true. I can post facts which demonstrate the OP is financially better off sticking with what he has, which are equally true. Calling those facts BS is both ignorant and arrogant.

do you know the OP personally ... ? ????

[Lacessit]

14 hours ago, MJCM said:

I guess some other members will only start considering an EV when there are as many chargers as there are petrol stations 

There seems to be an evolution ( sorry, a bit off topic ) in the number of CNG stations available, some are closing down. IMO owners of CNG-fuelled passenger cars have worked out the cost of hauling an extra 100 kg of tank and annual inspections negates any fuel cost savings, plus the extra wear caused by higher cylinder head temperatures.

 

No doubt the number of charging stations will increase as market share of EV's increases, in response to demand.

[KhunLA]

30 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

The debate about fuel / electricity costs ......... But MG, for instance, show 'cost savings' on their web site based on an outdated electricity price (elec pricing as of June 2020).

Yes, that's why I adjusted my original cost analysis from MG's, to ฿5 as I think they used ฿4, which come 2023, may even be ฿6 per kW, depending on use.

 

Petrol seems to be stuck in the ฿35 +/- range per liter range, for now.   They almost eliminated the price difference between E85 vs 91, that we used for the MG ZS ICE.   Early 2021 and it was 25% cheaper.  Now I think it is less than 10% cheaper.

 

We charged the car yesterday, with some AC use in the house, and used 30+ kW.  Why I'm such a fan of Solar.  Even our 'expensive' installed system, will probably have a ROI in less than 10 yrs.  Much shorter if PEA keeps raising the prices. 

 

Solar is definitely the way to go, if possible, and especially if having an EV.  Although having a T.O.U. meter vs install cost, may work for some folks, especially if both in the mature (older) age brackets, with no dependents.

 

30kW X 30 days is 900kW/units a month, and todays rate,

equals a ฿5000 monthly PEA bill.  Our system's ROI is 7.5 yrs

at that rate, barring the increase next year.

https://eservice.pea.co.th/EstimateBill/

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Thailand J said:

I am waiting for tomorrow's EV.

 

Tomorrow never comes.

 

I bought tomorrow's car last year; it's called an EV.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Tomorrow never comes.

 

I bought tomorrow's car last year; it's called an EV.

The govt incentives aren't going to last forever either.  And  ฿240,000 was quite the incentive.  Even better, the car appreciated when driven off the lot, by ฿11k, instead of the usual depreciation of 20-25% for first year.

 

Purchase price ฿949k, Insured value ฿960k ????

 

MG EP's incentive is ฿227k along with no depreciation when driven away from dealer ????

[Robin]

Thank you for all your advice and comments.  I now know , or think I know, more about EV's.  

My initial thought was that an EV might save me money while saving he planet, but I am not so sure now. 

Easiest way I can think of saving money is not to replace my Vios until I have to.  it is a competent car, if not perfect, and doe what I want of a car.

I agree that the EV situation is changing quickly, and may be different in 2-3 years time, like buying a PC was in the earlier days. (next year there will always be a cheaper and better model.)

A friend of mine in UK bought a Volvo EV/ Hybrid last year, and has had several expensive repairs already.  Not what I would have expected.

I have no plans to move house, but also our home would not benefit from going Solar, as we do not have aircon or swimming pool.

I remain slightly dubious about the ability of Thais to cope with maintenance/ repairs of EV's unil they have more experience, and I do not want to be one who is paying for their training.

 

So Vios for some time yet, and then might change it for something with a smaller engine, if that exists

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

The govt incentives aren't going to last forever either.  And  ฿240,000 was quite the incentive.  Even better, the car appreciated when driven off the lot, by ฿11k, instead of the usual depreciation of 20-25% for first year.

 

Purchase price ฿949k, Insured value ฿960k ????

 

MG EP's incentive is ฿227k along with no depreciation when driven away from dealer ????

I was at the MG dealer a week ago, she told me they were no longer accepting orders for MG EP+ with the 24% government incentive, it's back to 998k.

 

She also told me to expect my 2nd MG EP+ between March & June next year (ordered in October).

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I was at the MG dealer a week ago, she told me they were no longer accepting orders for MG EP+ with the 24% government incentive, it's back to 998k.

 

She also told me to expect my 2nd MG EP+ between March & June next year (ordered in October).

He / she who hesitates ...

 

With all my 2nd thoughts, so glad we ordered ours back in May, and received October, a month earlier than expected.

 

They can't seem to make them fast enough for the demand.  That's a bit telling about where the market for EVs is heading.

 

Should also help with the 2nd hand market pricing in a few years.

Edited December 11, 2022 by KhunLA

[seedy]

13 minutes ago, Robin said:

Thank you for all your advice and comments.  I now know , or think I know, more about EV's.  

My initial thought was that an EV might save me money while saving he planet, but I am not so sure now. 

Easiest way I can think of saving money is not to replace my Vios until I have to.  it is a competent car, if not perfect, and doe what I want of a car.

I agree that the EV situation is changing quickly, and may be different in 2-3 years time, like buying a PC was in the earlier days. (next year there will always be a cheaper and better model.)

A friend of mine in UK bought a Volvo EV/ Hybrid last year, and has had several expensive repairs already.  Not what I would have expected.

I have no plans to move house, but also our home would not benefit from going Solar, as we do not have aircon or swimming pool.

I remain slightly dubious about the ability of Thais to cope with maintenance/ repairs of EV's unil they have more experience, and I do not want to be one who is paying for their training.

 

So Vios for some time yet, and then might change it for something with a smaller engine, if that exists

Wise move on your part - IM not so HO

See how this all plays out.

Re: maintenance - ICE cars been here forever, yet if I did not have my own Pro scan tool the shops would never find the problem.

I bring the results and show them - one even asked his manager if the shop could get one.

Got a dirty look from him !!! 555

Cars are so complex these days that - if I was younger - I would open a shop to fix all the unfixables from name brand dealer service departments, where all they do is fire the parts cannon at the problem !

[Lacessit]

29 minutes ago, Robin said:

Thank you for all your advice and comments.  I now know , or think I know, more about EV's.  

My initial thought was that an EV might save me money while saving he planet, but I am not so sure now. 

 

IMO you have made the right decision. An EV will save money on running costs, however, those savings are swamped by the capital cost of the vehicle, and any solar infrastructure.

Your Vios is quite adequate for purpose for a number of years yet.

 

You would not be saving the planet, that is a myth. It will remain that way until the world is on 100% renewables and nuclear power. EV's simply transfer the carbon dioxide pollution from the ICE they replace to the fossil-fuelled power stations, which are still 80% of electricity generation world-wide.

 

In point of fact, EV owners in the Chiang Mai - Lamphun - Lampang area are recharging them with electricity from the Mae Moh power station, which is fuelled by lignite, the dirtiest fossil fuel on the planet. Unless they go to the expense of installing their own solar capacity.

 

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, Robin said:

Easiest way I can think of saving money is not to replace my Vios until I have to.  it is a competent car, if not perfect, and doe what I want of a car................A friend of mine in UK bought a Volvo EV/ Hybrid last year, and has had several expensive repairs already. 

... friends Volvo ... did it not come with a warranty ?

1 yr old shouldn't cost anything to fix.

 

MG gives 4 or 5 yrs on the car & 8 yrs on the battery pack if an EV.

At the end of 8 yrs, the pack should still be at 80% at least, I believe, and reviews of EVs, MGs & Tesla, the depletion is much less.  Some less than 5%, rather amazing actually.  Take care of your battery, and it will take care of you.

 

Some food for thought, for keep or act now.

Keep Vios for 5 ish more years or longer, and it will be worth ...

... might as well keep as a 2nd car / spare ... JIC ...

considering what anyone would offer for a 10+ yrs or more car.

 

I did that with my Mazda 2, just gave it to our daughter, as worth much more her using, than giving it away at what they were offering.

 

Then of course the need to buy a new one,  and for easy math, 

we'll say ฿771k ... see where I'm going, MG EP price now, and almost cost of top end Vios.

 

What you will miss, if not upgrading to EV before incentives expire...

... ฿200+k  value for Vios now, toward new car

... ฿227k less out of pocket to buy in (govt incentive)

... ฿150k depreciation driving new vehicle off the lot

... ฿577k or more, depending on sale of Vios, and depreciation of new car from day one, if no gov't incentive to counter it.  Whether ICE or EV.

 

Don't think anyone can argue the operating cost of EV is cheaper, even if paying full PEA rate at home to charge.  Less with T.O.U. meter.

 

Just food for thought, as you know your needs, budget, age.

 

In USA, I did the same, in 25 yrs, only bought 1 new vehicle, needing a dependable new truck for work.   All others were 2nd hand, and kept to I killed them.  Cheap buy in, and got my $$$ worth.   Plus I hate selling anything.

 

Strangely here, I'm on my 5th new car, in 20 yrs ????  More because I simply have more funds in retirement.

 

2 Vios & 1 Mazda 2 ... and served me well.

 

Stepped up to MG ZS ICE, 2 yrs ago, same price as high end Vios or Mazda, but quite the upgrade in comfort, especially over the road; ride & road noise.

 

Liked the ZS so much after 2 yrs, and since having solar + govt incentives, would have been stupid not to upgrade to the EV version.

 

Wife today noted ... 'we haven't pulled in to get petrol in so long' ... as on the way to Global house, we passed our local PTT petrol station ????

 

฿1500 almost weekly more in the my pocket ... or her pocketbook ????

[unheard]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

MG gives 4 or 5 yrs on the car & 8 yrs on the battery pack if an EV.

At the end of 8 yrs, the pack should still be at 80% at least, I believe, and reviews of EVs, MGs & Tesla, the depletion is much less.  Some less than 5%, rather amazing actually.

The battery depletion rate is still a big unknown.

The technology is improving but not nearly as rapidly as the rest of the tech.

There's still not enough of verifiable data with big enough data samples to draw definitive conclusions what would happen to an average battery after 10 years of use.

It's quite possible that just about every EV car sold today would need to have its battery replaced shortly after its 10 year service mark.

Here's the study performed by the entity with a lot of  money on the line, as opposed to the manufacturers or fanboy clubs who have their own biases.

 

"...it seems that a car loses around 1% of range a year for the first 7 years or so, but then the rates increase.

By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity."

 

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration

Edited December 12, 2022 by unheard

[JBChiangRai]

57 minutes ago, unheard said:

The battery depletion rate is still a big unknown.

The technology is improving but not nearly as rapidly as the rest of the tech.

There's still not enough of verifiable data with big enough data samples to draw definitive conclusions what would happen to an average battery after 10 years of use.

It's quite possible that just about every EV car sold today would need to have its battery replaced shortly after its 10 year service mark.

Here's the study performed by the entity with a lot of  money on the line, as opposed to the manufacturers or fanboy clubs who have their own biases.

 

"...it seems that a car loses around 1% of range a year for the first 7 years or so, but then the rates increase.

By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity."

 

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration

His graphs look to have been sensationalised, not quite a logarithmic scale but definitely not a linear scale based on mileage.

 

82.5% battery capacity at 213,000 miles is not bad, taking the average of 12k per year, that's approaching 18 years of average use with over 80% of the battery left.

 

I think it's probably likely that those 10 year old high mileage cars may have been supercharged more often which is a known factor for degradation. and probably charged to 100% every day which is against Tesla's advice.

 

I read that report as saying look after your battery and it will outlast the life of the car.

[KhunLA]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I read that report as saying look after your battery and it will outlast the life of the car.

Agree 100%

[unheard]

43 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

His graphs look to have been sensationalised, not quite a logarithmic scale but definitely not a linear scale based on mileage.

You shouldn't be extrapolating the life of the battery on the driven mileage alone, as is the case with an ICE motor.

A barely used or stored electric battery will still be degrading over time, just at slower rate.

It degrades with usage and also over time.

Edited December 12, 2022 by unheard

[KhunLA]

Real life reliability & degradation of battery. 

Tesla owner & 9:48 of the vid

2.2% ... 4 yrs / 100k miles (not kms)

 

 

 

Here's another from our 'favorite' YT'er

2 yr period / 25k kms, and none really noticed.

@ 9:30 of the vid

 

So, can we now stop with the BS ... ????

Edited December 12, 2022 by KhunLA

[unheard]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Real life reliability & degradation of battery.

How's is it relevant to the unknown (at the moment) battery degradation levels after 10 years of service life?

Edited December 12, 2022 by unheard

[unheard]

Road trip charging woes of the hyped up Rivian.

Start at 13:07

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:25 AM, KhunLA said:

Petrol seems to be stuck in the ฿35 +/- range per liter range, for now.   They almost eliminated the price difference between E85 vs 91, that we used for the MG ZS ICE.   Early 2021 and it was 25% cheaper.  Now I think it is less than 10% cheaper.

 

E85 has about 70% of the energy content of 91 Gasohol (E10), so it needs to be a lot cheaper as your car will use a lot more of it.  It's definitely not worth using today.

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

E85 has about 70% of the energy content of 91 Gasohol (E10), so it needs to be a lot cheaper as your car will use a lot more of it.  It's definitely not worth using today.

Depends on the car, if 'designed' to use, as the ZS was.  I tested all 3, and got about the same kpL, and a bit more pep with E85,surprisingly, though barely noticeable.  Originally 25+% cheaper than 91, back in Sept 2020.  

[JBChiangRai]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Depends on the car, if 'designed' to use, as the ZS was.  I tested all 3, and got about the same kpL, and a bit more pep with E85,surprisingly, though barely noticeable.  Originally 25+% cheaper than 91, back in Sept 2020.  

You shouldn't get the same consumption, it makes me wonder if there is something wrong somewhere.  The calorific content is a lot lower with Ethanol and the engine has to burn considerably more fuel to do the same amount of work.  Maybe your engine was just running richer on E10 (regular gasohol).  There are a lot of studies on the web about increased consumption with E85.