Multiple Entry Visa Problems

[EveryG]

I have been planning a trip to Thailand for well over a year. I am a UK citizen with residency in another Asian country, so I emailed the consulate with my plans and they said I qualify to apply for a multiple entry tourist visa. They require first emailing all of the documents to get "pre-approved" and then they sent me a time for an appointment. Mind you, I wrote my intended arrival date in March of 2023 and had all of my hotel itineraries and flights. When I got to the appointment, the lady kept asking me about my ticket asking me if I could change it because it shows me leaving Thailand in September. I told her I was aware that I needed to leave every 60 days because I assumed that's what she was going on about. I paid my money and the next day, a full 2.5 months before I planned to depart, they approved my visa starting from the day I applied. I was livid and confused. 

 

First, they said they already asked me if I could change my ticket. Second, they said that it clearly states the validity period on their website. I found the the following sentence: "you must enter Thailand within the validity of visa from the date of issue". They think that means they have clearly stated that the first day of validity is the date upon which the visa is issued.

 

Perhaps not surprisingly, they have said that this is my fault. This is in spite of the fact that my intention was clearly stated on numerous documents that they required I submit for pre-authorization before they gave my an appointment. To be clear, I sent the documents and after 3 attempts at the correct format, they approved them and gave me an appointment. They ignored my email requesting that the visa be changed.

 

Anyone have any recommendation for appealing this? The visa they have given me is COMPLETELY worthless to me as I have already booked arrangements for the time I applied for, not the time they gave me. 

[freedomnow]

You can get 9 months out of METV almost, regardless.

 

Just have to keep an eye on expiry date stamped on the visa, and leave a day or so before then to be sure and you can get an additional 3 months almost beyond that expiry date...60+30 extension.

 

 

[EveryG]

Thanks for the response. So basically, if I arrive March 15, I need to leave within 60 days (or 90 if I get an extension). The visa then expires on June 30, so if I return on June 28, I will be allowed to stay another 60 days (or 90 with an extension)? 

 

Then, I assume if I want (need) more time, I can come back without the METV? 

[Caldera]

It's unfortunate that they aren't flexible with regards to the date a visa is valid from, but that's just the way it is, it always starts from when it's being issued.

 

They could make it more clear for applicants who aren't familiar with that, but there's no point in trying to appeal this - the fee has been collected, the visa has been issued as per their rules, case closed.

[DrJack54]

OP, you misunderstood how a visa such as METV works.

It's mentioned many times in threads that do not obtain it too early. 

 

[EveryG]

14 minutes ago, Caldera said:

It's unfortunate that they aren't flexible with regards to the date a visa is valid from, but that's just the way it is, it always starts from when it's being issued.

 

They could make it more clear for applicants who aren't familiar with that, but there's no point in trying to appeal this - the fee has been collected, the visa has been issued as per their rules, case closed.

Besides the poor English on the website, the fact that they issued me a visa for dates that I have absolutely no flights for is quite mind boggling. I assumed that since they required a flight itinerary to be pre-approved, they would require that itinerary prove that I was leaving before the visa expired. I had a ticket leaving 2.5 months later than the validity of the visa they granted me. It's just a ridiculous situation that I couldn't have predicted.

[EveryG]

5 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, you misunderstood how a visa such as METV works.

It's mentioned many times in threads that do not obtain it too early. 

 

Perhaps it's mentioned in threads, but it's not mentioned on their website nor did they inform me in the 20 emails before they granted me an appointed that I never even requested. So I didn't misunderstand the information they provided, they just assumed they were clear when they absolutely were not. 

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, EveryG said:

Perhaps it's mentioned in threads, but it's not mentioned on their website nor did they inform me in the 20 emails before they granted me an appointed that I never even requested

Bottom line is that nothing can be done now. 

In order to add extra time for your trip you will need to do some border runs (reenter visa exempt) with extensions after your last stamp from the METV.

Unfortunate but horse has bolted. 

[EveryG]

9 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Bottom line is that nothing can be done now. 

In order to add extra time for your trip you will need to do some border runs (reenter visa exempt) with extensions after your last stamp from the METV.

Unfortunate but horse has bolted. 

The one thing I am not clear about is the "expiry" of the visa. I had assumed that if the visa expires on 30 June, then I must be out of the country by then. From what has been said here, as long as I return by 29 June, I can get 60 more days? And 90 if I apply for an extension? That puts me to Sept 29(ish), which is longer than I was planning on staying anyway. 

 

I've been living overseas for over 20 years and never been to a country  that lets you stay past the time your visa expires, which is why I am asking to make sure this is indeed the case. 

[DrJack54]

I spent 30 seconds on Google for METV ...

Here was my first hit.....

 

"Validity of a visa : 6 months

– A visa becomes effective from the date of issuance.

– Do not apply for the visa too early.

– If you apply too early the visa may expire before your trip and you will have to re-apply. "

 

 

Regards your following comment...

"From what has been said here, as long as I return by 29 June, I can get 60 more days? And 90 if I apply for an extension?".

 

That is correct. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by DrJack54

[oliverphoenix2]

"From what has been said here, as long as I return by 29 June, I can get 60 more days? And 90 if I apply for an extension? That puts me to Sept 29(ish), which is longer than I was planning on staying anyway. "

 

Correct    -    every time you re-enter before the visa expiration date you get 60 days permission of stay which you can extend 30 days.

[EveryG]

8 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I spent 30 seconds on Google for METV ...

Here was my first hit.....

 

"Validity of a visa : 6 months

– A visa becomes effective from the date of issuance.

– Do not apply for the visa too early.

– If you apply too early the visa may expire before your trip and you will have to re-apply. "

 

I never imagined I needed to search beyond the information they provided on their website, which had an entire METV page that does not state any of the above. After the visa was issued, I also found that info, but it never occurred to me to double-check the direct source at other consulates, especially given the detailed information I had provided them gave them numerous opportunities to state the above.

 

The amount of wrong and incomplete information throughout the process was actually quite astonishing..... every step was a problem with them. The website would say "please send a" and when I did, they would write a 3 paragraph email explaining what they actually wanted was not "a", but ABC in 123 format. They only responded once every 24 hours. I wouldn't have even known where to begin to double-check every detail and since every consulate has slightly different rules, I didn't think to compare and contrast what other consulates said.  I have since discovered that this specific consulate is notorious- again, only discovered after the fact. 

 

I only write these other details for others if they are doing research. Do not assume that the information you are given is correct. Chances are, the people emailing you are incompetent and giving incorrect guidance and instructions. 

 

At any rate, thanks for confirming the other bit of info. 

[freedomnow]

3 hours ago, EveryG said:

It's just a ridiculous situation that I couldn't have predicted.

It's the first step in experiencing 'stupid and ill-thought out' with everything govt. in Thailand.

[BritTim]

7 hours ago, EveryG said:

I've been living overseas for over 20 years and never been to a country  that lets you stay past the time your visa expires, which is why I am asking to make sure this is indeed the case. 

Indeed! That is a common misconception. The first thing to learn about Thai immigration rules is that 'visas' and 'permissions to stay' are almost completely independent of each other. A visa allows (or by law is supposed to allow) you to enter Thailand, at which stage you are given a permission to stay with an expiry date. The visa is no longer of any relevance as to whether you are legally in Thailand. Your permission to stay may be extended. Your visa is never extended. This is different from most countries where, in general, your visa and permission to stay are closely linked.

[steve187]

10 hours ago, EveryG said:

Besides the poor English on the website, the fact that they issued me a visa for dates that I have absolutely no flights for is quite mind boggling. I assumed that since they required a flight itinerary to be pre-approved, they would require that itinerary prove that I was leaving before the visa expired. I had a ticket leaving 2.5 months later than the validity of the visa they granted me. It's just a ridiculous situation that I couldn't have predicted.

there is no problem in staying 3 months or in your case 2.5 months after the expiry date of the visa, an entry 1 day before the expiry date of the visa will allow (with an extension) this,

[EveryG]

10 hours ago, freedomnow said:

It's the first step in experiencing 'stupid and ill-thought out' with everything govt. in Thailand.

I am shocked about the absolute pervasiveness of it. They couldn't be bigger screw-ups if they tried. Literally every line of their instructions was clarified with a form email, which tells me they have the same problems over and over but don't fix the problem at the source. They kept reminding me that I was dealing with a 3rd world country. 

 

They said they wanted a copy of my bank statement, but they later said I need a certified letter from the bank. Then they said I needed to submit all forms together, but then clarified they meant all documents converted and combined in a pdf file. Over and over, answering one "problem" every 24 hours and not continuing review until I fixed the previous day's problem. 

 

I've visited dozens of countries and lived in 4. Thai consulate are the most incompetent I have seen. By far. 

 

 

[jimn]

39 minutes ago, EveryG said:

I am shocked about the absolute pervasiveness of it. They couldn't be bigger screw-ups if they tried. Literally every line of their instructions was clarified with a form email, which tells me they have the same problems over and over but don't fix the problem at the source. They kept reminding me that I was dealing with a 3rd world country. 

 

They said they wanted a copy of my bank statement, but they later said I need a certified letter from the bank. Then they said I needed to submit all forms together, but then clarified they meant all documents converted and combined in a pdf file. Over and over, answering one "problem" every 24 hours and not continuing review until I fixed the previous day's problem. 

 

I've visited dozens of countries and lived in 4. Thai consulate are the most incompetent I have seen. By far. 

 

 

Welcome to how it works in Thailand. Most of the info on the websites of the overseas consulates is either wrong or incomplete. You also need to understand that the overseas consulates that issue the visa is under the duristriction of the Thai Ministery of Foreign Affairs whereas Thai immigration is a totally different entity under the Thai immigration police. Those of us who live or travel to Thailand regularly know this. 

Its not your fault for not knowing this but you need to stop trying to justify your point. Even if its correct. It is what it is, just get on with it. 

Dont stress there will be more challanging circumstances that dont make any sense when you get here.

[sometimewoodworker]

19 hours ago, EveryG said:

you must enter Thailand within the validity of visa from the date of issue". They think that means they have clearly stated that the first day of validity is the date upon which the visa is issued.

They are absolutely correct all visas I have obtained in the last 40 years started on the issue date. They are never post dated. The period of validity always starts the day of issuance and you must use them within the validity period.

 

19 hours ago, EveryG said:

"you must enter Thailand within the validity of visa from the date of issue". They think that means they have clearly stated that the first day of validity is the date upon which the visa is issued.

It absolutely does. That you misunderstood is not the fault of the embassy.

 

19 hours ago, EveryG said:

Perhaps not surprisingly, they have said that this is my fault.

Because it is!

19 hours ago, EveryG said:

They ignored my email requesting that the visa be changed.

Not surprisingly, a visa is never changed, only in exceptional situations is it cancelled and reissued. Your mistake is not exceptional.

 

19 hours ago, EveryG said:

The visa they have given me is COMPLETELY worthless to me as I have already booked arrangements for the time I applied for, not the time they gave me. 

You were given the time you applied for! Your only recourse will be to ask to have the visa cancelled and reapply as close to your arrival date as you can, you will have to pay for the new visa.

 

That you didn’t understand is not the fault of the embassy nor is it the responsibility of theirs to educate you. 

17 hours ago, EveryG said:

The one thing I am not clear about is the "expiry" of the visa. I had assumed that if the visa expires on 30 June, then I must be out of the country by then.

This is not the way that Thai visas work. The expiration date

16 hours ago, EveryG said:

 

is the last date you can enter, you will be granted time to stay between 60 days and 1 year beyond the expiration of the visa depending on the visa you hold.

 

17 hours ago, EveryG said:

I've been living overseas for over 20 years and never been to a country  that lets you stay past the time your visa expires,

I have lived in 2 countries that allow staying beyond the time the visa allows, you just assumed that the rules of one country have anything to do with the rules of another.

 

16 hours ago, EveryG said:

They only responded once every 24 hours.

Why should they respond faster? They have jobs to do that don’t involve responding immediately. Once a day is sufficient.

 

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

A visa allows (or by law is supposed to allow) you to enter Thailand

A common misconception. A visa allows you to present yourself to an immigration officer. Visa’s never give permission to enter a country.
That the vast majority of people presenting themselves to immigration officers are then granted permission to enter the country is the decision of the immigration officer. This is true of every country that I have been to. It is probably universal.

 

Until you have been allowed, by an immigration officer to enter the country you are in a grey area that is technically not actually in the country. Physically being in, for example Thailand, is not relevant as, again for example embassy grounds are not within Thailand’s jurisdiction. 

3 hours ago, jimn said:

Its not your fault for not knowing this but you need to stop trying to justify your point.

Well it is actually @EveryGs responsibility for not researching enough, all of his points of complaint are well reported. @jimn you are completely correct that he is wasting his time complaining about a situation that is his own problem and as many people have found out, you deal with the situation  politely, calmly and learn from it or you create more problems for yourself.

[sometimewoodworker]

19 hours ago, EveryG said:

 

I have been planning a trip to Thailand for well over a year. I am a UK citizen with residency in another Asian country,

So you expect that 2 different non English speaking countries will have perfect English speakers/writers on staff!! You also expect that the standard (in so far as I have experienced in my 35 years of living outside the U.K. in Asia) rules that are followed in every country I’ve been to and know of, including Britain’s HMRC of visas starting the day of issuance will magically change. 
 

Every country has subtly different rules, it is your responsibility to find out what they are. The rules are always written in the native language of the country, English translations are always a guide and as close as they can be to accurate, but no language exactly translates to any other, some are closer others not so much. This is something you should know specifically because you are resident in an Asian country.

[Sheryl]

17 hours ago, EveryG said:

The one thing I am not clear about is the "expiry" of the visa. I had assumed that if the visa expires on 30 June, then I must be out of the country by then. From what has been said here, as long as I return by 29 June, I can get 60 more days? And 90 if I apply for an extension? That puts me to Sept 29(ish), which is longer than I was planning on staying anyway. 

 

I've been living overseas for over 20 years and never been to a country  that lets you stay past the time your visa expires, which is why I am asking to make sure this is indeed the case. 

You are confusing visas, which are permission to enter a country, with permission to stay, which is something granted once/as you enter. Very different htings.

 

Visa expiration date is the last date on which you can use a visa to enter a country.

 

How long you are allowed to stay depends on the permission of stay you are granted when you arrive, which is stamped into your passport. This is independent of the  visa expiration date

 

True everywhere as far as I know.

[BritTim]

23 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

10 hours ago, BritTim said:

A visa allows (or by law is supposed to allow) you to enter Thailand

A common misconception. A visa allows you to present yourself to an immigration officer. Visa’s never give permission to enter a country.
That the vast majority of people presenting themselves to immigration officers are then granted permission to enter the country is the decision of the immigration officer. This is true of every country that I have been to. It is probably universal.

No, The common misconception is that Thailand follows other countries' laws when deciding whether to grant or deny entry. Back in 1979, when the Thai Immigration Act last had a major overhaul, Thailand was trying to reduce the levels of corruption. One way they decided to do this (and it worked well for decades) was by clearly laying out in the Act the conditions under which officials must deny entry, with no ability to deny entry for any other reason. This removed a common source of corruption in third world countries where officials extort money at the border. At least as far as Westerners were concerned, this Law was invariably followed until the last few years. The habit of denying entry according to the whims of the officials, and stamping the passport with a reason for denied entry that was untrue is a relatively recent phenomenon. Of course, along with this are reports that some have successfully bribed themselves in when officials hinted they are about to be denied entry.

[sometimewoodworker]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

True everywhere as far as I know.

Actually there are several countries, possibly many, where the permission to stay is always limited by the visa. 
Thailand maybe unusual in that the 2 (visa expiration and stay limit) are not linked 

[Phulublub]

18 hours ago, EveryG said:

The one thing I am not clear about is the "expiry" of the visa. I had assumed that if the visa expires on 30 June, then I must be out of the country by then. From what has been said here, as long as I return by 29 June, I can get 60 more days? And 90 if I apply for an extension? That puts me to Sept 29(ish), which is longer than I was planning on staying anyway. 

 

I've been living overseas for over 20 years and never been to a country  that lets you stay past the time your visa expires, which is why I am asking to make sure this is indeed the case. 

It is a Multi ENTRY visa....so as long as you (try to) enter while the Visa is valid, you will be fine.  How long you can stay after entry is nothing to do with the ENTRY visa.

 

PH

[sometimewoodworker]

30 minutes ago, BritTim said:

No, The common misconception is that Thailand follows other countries' laws when deciding whether to grant or deny entry.

There is no misconception. All countries have their own laws/regulations. That most are similar or the same as others is just a fact, as is the fact that most countries have subtle, or major differences.

Your conception that the written laws were rigidly followed from 1979 to, say, 2010 with no ability to deny entry for any other reason is incorrect.

My first visit to Thailand was in 1980 with too many to count since then. Immigration officers have always denied entry for people they did not want to admit and have always found a “reason” to list this denial as one of the legitimate ones. For the first several years of my visits it was well known that people with questionable hygiene and or less than common hairstyles and clothing would probably be refused entry to Thailand. FWIW AFIR there were even printed posters in immigration departments showing this.  I have been near enough to immigration officers on several occasions during the years to overhear these conversations.

 

So your rose coloured glasses must be fading or you have had different arrival experiences to mine.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[BritTim]

42 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

For the first several years of my visits it was well known that people with questionable hygiene and or less than common hairstyles and clothing would probably be refused entry to Thailand

Absolutely. They were denied under Section 12 (7) as undesirables, "having behaviour that involved ... a likelihood of being a nuisance". This was backed up by the Minister, and they could just as easily have used Section 12 (10) as an alternative.

 

The current situation is different. There have been no official ministerial announcements to the effect that those entering Thailand frequently as tourists should be denied under Section 12 (2) as "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom.", especially when there is abundant proof that this is untrue.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

You are confusing visas, which are permission to enter a country, with permission to stay, which is something granted once/as you enter. Very different htings.

 

Visa expiration date is the last date on which you can use a visa to enter a country.

 

How long you are allowed to stay depends on the permission of stay you are granted when you arrive, which is stamped into your passport. This is independent of the  visa expiration date

 

True everywhere as far as I know.

Incorrect.

The validity of a visa for the UK is also the same as the period of stay.
 

[freedomnow]

8 hours ago, EveryG said:

I am shocked about the absolute pervasiveness of it. They couldn't be bigger screw-ups if they tried. Literally every line of their instructions was clarified with a form email, which tells me they have the same problems over and over but don't fix the problem at the source. They kept reminding me that I was dealing with a 3rd world country. 

 

They said they wanted a copy of my bank statement, but they later said I need a certified letter from the bank. Then they said I needed to submit all forms together, but then clarified they meant all documents converted and combined in a pdf file. Over and over, answering one "problem" every 24 hours and not continuing review until I fixed the previous day's problem. 

 

I've visited dozens of countries and lived in 4. Thai consulate are the most incompetent I have seen. By far. 

 

 

Really, is it a certified letter from bank now for METV vs statements ?

 

It's like they don't want to issue METV anymore.

 

A triple tourist visa (9 months) from Hull UK was a breeze 10 years ago.

One A4 bit of paper filled out, actual passport for the stamp and a couple of photos if I remember.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, freedomnow said:

Really, is it a certified letter from bank now for METV vs statements ?

 

It's like they don't want to issue METV anymore.

 

A triple tourist visa (9 months) from Hull UK was a breeze 10 years ago.

One A4 bit of paper filled out, actual passport for the stamp and a couple of photos if I remember.

Virtually all visas have become more difficult over the years as the system has been more and more abused, so you can thank the abusers rather than castigating the embassies who are trying to reduce the abuse.

 

4 hours ago, BritTim said:

They were denied under Section 12 (7) as undesirables, "having behaviour that involved ... a likelihood of being a nuisance"

That could characterise almost anybody, (in my personal experience it did) as it’s the IOs judgment that can only be challenged by trying to involve a supervisor or as a faint possibility trying to get a lawyer, for which the words snowball, chance and hell are probably accurate.

4 hours ago, BritTim said:

The current situation is different.

It seems remarkably similar to me, the difference being the fig leaf’s placement has changed from 7 to 2. The refusals are as arbitrarily seeming to the outside view point as they ever were.and the IOs are still as able as they ever were to deny entry to anyone the want to, just the excuse has changed.

 

4 hours ago, BritTim said:

There have been no official ministerial announcements to the effect that ——-

You should know that not all changes of policy are given an official ministerial announcement, so it’s perfectly possible that there have been changes that have been implemented without an announcement.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

7 hours ago, BritTim said:

They were denied under Section 12 (7) as undesirables, "having behaviour that involved ... a likelihood of being a nuisance"

That could characterise almost anybody, (in my personal experience it did) as it’s the IOs judgment that can only be challenged by trying to involve a supervisor or as a faint possibility trying to get a lawyer, for which the words snowball, chance and hell are probably accurate.

7 hours ago, BritTim said:

The current situation is different.

It seems remarkably similar to me, the difference being the fig leaf’s placement has changed from 7 to 2. The refusals are as arbitrarily seeming to the outside view point as they ever were.and the IOs are still as able as they ever were to deny entry to anyone the want to, just the excuse has changed.

I never felt good about the exclusion of hippy types from Thailand. However, it is a fact that the authorities (and, actually, most other Thais) considered them undesirables. Possibly they were influenced to some extent by the association of the hippy lifestyle with drug taking. The difference is that officials were denying entry to those who looked like hippies based on instructions from the Minister. It was not just based on the personal antipathy of an individual official. The arrival was told in a straightforward manner that he was being denied entry due to Thailand not wanting hippy types in their country. Today, officials deny entry because they dislike long stay tourists, but stamp a bogus reason for the denied entry in the passport.

 

I should mention, as an aside, that I believe officials have a legal right to deny a visa exemption. They take the place of a consular official deciding whether to approve a visa. In both cases, there is discretion, and no reason is actually necessary to refuse a visa or visa exemption. However, if denying a visa exemption, the denied entry ought to be on the based of Section 12 (1). With a valid visa, you satisfy all the document requirements for entry, and refusal needs to be based on one of the other reasons under Section 12. Staying too long as a tourist is not one of them.

Edited December 21, 2022 by BritTim

[Onerak]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:16 AM, EveryG said:

I've been living overseas for over 20 years and never been to a country  that lets you stay past the time your visa expires, which is why I am asking to make sure this is indeed the case. 

You are confusing about visa and permission to stay. Visa is for entry into a country. A single entry visa allows you to enter the country once only and it expires as soon as you enter the country no matter what date is stamped on the visa sticker. A permission to stay is how long you can stay in a country. The IO will stamp on your passport how long you can stay inside the country and must leave on or before the expiration date stamped on your passport. The permission to stay in the county can be beyond the date stamped on your visa sticker. This concept is the same and it applies thought out the World. In some countries, permission to stay may coincide with the visa sticker date but in most cases it does not.