Ukraine war: Germany yet to make decision on sending tanks

[Scott]

Germany has not yet decided whether to send Leopard tanks to Ukraine, or allow other countries to donate theirs, despite pressure on Berlin to act.

A meeting on Friday to co-ordinate military donations for Kyiv did agree to supply more armoured vehicles and air defence systems.

But Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky earlier made a specific appeal for modern tanks to repel Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64350877

[Bkk Brian]

From the link:

 

Poland's foreign minister criticised Germany's reluctance to send tanks.

"Arming Ukraine in order to repel the Russian aggression is not some kind of decision-making exercise. Ukrainian blood is shed for real. This is the price of hesitation over Leopard deliveries. We need action, now," 

 

Its way past time for Europe to rely so much on the US, their Abraham tanks are better but too specialized and need lots of training, fuel and logistical support that Ukraine just does not have. The leopards were designed to take on the Russian T90's and are perfect. A lot of European countries have been doing what they can but this delayed decision by Germany is costing lives. There are countries waiting to donate these Leapords but have to wait for Germany's say so. This is beyond reason now.

[Mickeymaus]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

From the link:

 

Poland's foreign minister criticised Germany's reluctance to send tanks.

"Arming Ukraine in order to repel the Russian aggression is not some kind of decision-making exercise. Ukrainian blood is shed for real. This is the price of hesitation over Leopard deliveries. We need action, now," 

 

Its way past time for Europe to rely so much on the US, their Abraham tanks are better but too specialized and need lots of training, fuel and logistical support that Ukraine just does not have. The leopards were designed to take on the Russian T90's and are perfect. A lot of European countries have been doing what they can but this delayed decision by Germany is costing lives. There are countries waiting to donate these Leapords but have to wait for Germany's say so. This is beyond reason now.

Okay, they deliver the tanks. What will the result be? Will Ukraine then win the war? I doubt it. There will only be more destruction and deaths. It is not clear to me what Selensky wants to achieve. The total destruction of the Ukraine or a world war? There need to be talks and not fights. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Mickeymaus said:

Okay, they deliver the tanks. What will the result be? Will Ukraine then win the war? I doubt it. There will only be more destruction and deaths. It is not clear to me what Selensky wants to achieve. The total destruction of the Ukraine or a world war? There need to be talks and not fights. 

It is not clear to me what Selensky wants to achieve.

 

Say's it all if you can't even work that most basic of facts yet.

[Mickeymaus]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

It is not clear to me what Selensky wants to achieve.

 

Say's it all if you can't even work that most basic of facts yet.

Please let me know your opinion. I only see death and destruction on both sides. It is crazy that people kill each other. For what??? New weapons will not stop this. They need to talk. But in the end up to them... 

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

Please let me know your opinion. I only see death and destruction on both sides. It is crazy that people kill each other. For what??? New weapons will not stop this. They need to talk. But in the end up to them... 

I see a sovereign country illegally invaded with over 80% of Ukrainians supporting the defense and continued action. The action against the war crimes, murders, illegal annexation and torture of its own people. I see the West and Europe supporting them. 

 

Everybody wants peace and peace talks, not occupation.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Bkk Brian
spelling

[steven100]

Source:https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-decides-against-sending-tanks-003949697.html

 

[Tug]

1 hour ago, Mickeymaus said:

Please let me know your opinion. I only see death and destruction on both sides. It is crazy that people kill each other. For what??? New weapons will not stop this. They need to talk. But in the end up to them... 

to put it simply he and the Ukrainian PEOPLE want Russia the hell out of their country ALL of their country the want the Russians to STOP bombing their city’s and KILLING their people hope that helps

[Mickeymaus]

26 minutes ago, Tug said:

to put it simply he and the Ukrainian PEOPLE want Russia the hell out of their country ALL of their country the want the Russians to STOP bombing their city’s and KILLING their people hope that helps

This is understood. But I doubt that more weapons will achieve this. Russia is a very big country with endless resources. I don't believe that the Ukraine has a chance against them in the long run. So there will be more destruction and deaths. When will it stop? When Zelensky sits in his bunker in the completely destroyed Kyiv / Kiev? Hopefully earlier... 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

This is understood. But I doubt that more weapons will achieve this. Russia is a very big country with endless resources. I don't believe that the Ukraine has a chance against them in the long run. So there will be more destruction and deaths. When will it stop? When Zelensky sits in his bunker in the completely destroyed Kyiv / Kiev? Hopefully earlier... 

And an economy which is about to get much worse. Revenues from gas and oil have plummeted. It's attempt to blackmail Europe  into abandoning support of the Ukraine via those resources has failed. The price cap has proved to be very effective.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Tug said:

to put it simply he and the Ukrainian PEOPLE want Russia the hell out of their country ALL of their country the want the Russians to STOP bombing their city’s and KILLING their people hope that helps

And now ask the Russian people what they want.

 

For me it is obvious that Putin/Russia invaded Ukraine and they should leave the country again. It has nothing to do with some survey of people in those countries.

But obviously reality is more complicated. 

[Tug]

44 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

This is understood. But I doubt that more weapons will achieve this. Russia is a very big country with endless resources. I don't believe that the Ukraine has a chance against them in the long run. So there will be more destruction and deaths. When will it stop? When Zelensky sits in his bunker in the completely destroyed Kyiv / Kiev? Hopefully earlier... 

Ukraine is not alone most all of the democracy’s are supporting Ukraine in thought and deed the last time a country tryed this was Germany in ww2 do you realize that Putin pulled the same excuse as hitler?(im going in to protect the Russian speaking people/ the German speaking people) the world isent going to let that happen again ever again!

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And now ask the Russian people what they want.

 

For me it is obvious that Putin/Russia invaded Ukraine and they should leave the country again. It has nothing to do with some survey of people in those countries.

But obviously reality is more complicated. 

The reality is not complicated at all. Its not about what the Russian people think. Russia has not been invaded illigally.

[whereyougo]

2 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

Okay, they deliver the tanks. What will the result be? Will Ukraine then win the war? I doubt it. There will only be more destruction and deaths. It is not clear to me what Selensky wants to achieve. The total destruction of the Ukraine or a world war? There need to be talks and not fights. 

Civilans are being murdered yet still support to fight. Easy for you to criticize from Sunny Thailand

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Mickeymaus said:

This is understood. But I doubt that more weapons will achieve this. Russia is a very big country with endless resources. I don't believe that the Ukraine has a chance against them in the long run. So there will be more destruction and deaths. When will it stop? When Zelensky sits in his bunker in the completely destroyed Kyiv / Kiev? Hopefully earlier... 

More weapons will solve this. Russia can't be trusted to talk. They promised peace in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons. They lied. They said they weren't going to invade. They lied. Russia's economy is under severe stress and the effect of the sanctions won't truly be felt until later this year. Now is the time to fight because Russia can't quickly regroup and collect more weapons. Russia is finished as a world power for generations. Until they get rid of Putin or send him to The Hague they will never escape sanctions.

 

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/impact-sanctions-russian-economy/

 

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88664

 

The literature suggests that a wider coalition of sanctioning countries could substantially increase the costs of sanctions for Russia. The impact of the sanctions is expected to increase gradually and darken Russia’s economic outlook for years to come. But while sanctions are an important tool to restrict Russia’s possibilities to continue the war, other measures are also needed.

 

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/war-and-sanctions-effects-russian-economy

[persimmon]

The West needs to send all their best weapons now , before it`s too late . Once Putin seizes more Ukrainian territory , and deports the population , it will be hard to make Ukraine a functioning country again .

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

I see a sovereign country illegally invaded with over 80% of Ukrainians supporting the defense and continued action. The action against the war crimes, murders, illegal annexation and torture of its own people. I see the West and Europe supporting them. 

 

Everybody wants peace and peace talks, not occupation.

 

 

Russia under Putin does NOT seem to want peace or peace talks, but they do seem to want total annexation and occupation of the Ukraine.

[OneMoreFarang]

I don't know if it is funny, sad or whatever to read all these comments from the arm-chair-experts.

How many of you are experts in wars, international relations, Russia, Ukraine, Putin, and a lot more?

How many know the history of Ukraine, Russia, the Soviet Union, Germany, the USA and other related countries?

How many know how wars are started, develop and end?

It's so easy to have an opinion of what is good or what is bad. I also have an opinion that there shouldn't be any wars. But somehow the world is not listening to me.

What's the point of all these comments from people who know basically nothing?

[persimmon]

You don`t need to be an expert - just look at the pictures coming out of Ukraine . That should tell you something about what`s going on .

[Bkk Brian]

45 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't know if it is funny, sad or whatever to read all these comments from the arm-chair-experts.

How many of you are experts in wars, international relations, Russia, Ukraine, Putin, and a lot more?

How many know the history of Ukraine, Russia, the Soviet Union, Germany, the USA and other related countries?

How many know how wars are started, develop and end?

It's so easy to have an opinion of what is good or what is bad. I also have an opinion that there shouldn't be any wars. But somehow the world is not listening to me.

What's the point of all these comments from people who know basically nothing?

What's the point of all these comments from people who know basically nothing?

 

Says you with your second comment on this OP. When you have nothing attack the posters and make unsubstantiated claims about them.

[Bkk Brian]

A Soviet-era T-72 rumbles through woodland belching thick black smoke as it fishtails over the frozen mud near the battered Ukrainian city of Bakhmut.

The tank is old - a relic from a time gone by - but it is nonetheless all the crew of the 24th mechanised brigade have to defend themselves against Russian aggression.

With the whoosh of rockets and thump of artillery reverberating through the copse, the crew explains what they are up against and what they need to end this fight.

"Tanks were created for supporting infantry, not for defence but for attacking, so for example to liberate our territories we definitely need tanks because it's like a fiery fist and a force to advance," Roman, the company commander, says.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-this-is-such-a-stupid-tank-commanders-plea-for-western-upgrades-12791111

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't know if it is funny, sad or whatever to read all these comments from the arm-chair-experts.

How many of you are experts in wars, international relations, Russia, Ukraine, Putin, and a lot more?

How many know the history of Ukraine, Russia, the Soviet Union, Germany, the USA and other related countries?

How many know how wars are started, develop and end?

It's so easy to have an opinion of what is good or what is bad. I also have an opinion that there shouldn't be any wars. But somehow the world is not listening to me.

What's the point of all these comments from people who know basically nothing?

Well we know Ukraine is being supported for the right reasons.

 

As i have said from the start along lines of that unless the Russian population rise up against the Putin govt and it's supporters the war is going to go on for a long time. 

 

It's a wait and see situation.

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Well we know Ukraine is being supported for the right reasons.

 

As i have said from the start along lines of that unless the Russian population rise up against the Putin govt and it's supporters the war is going to go on for a long time. 

 

It's a wait and see situation.

It wouldn't necessarily take a popular uprising to depose Putin and the War Party.

[billd766]

38 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It wouldn't necessarily take a popular uprising to depose Putin and the War Party.

IMHO it would take a lot of high and medium ranking officers who would be willing to refuse to carry out orders given from Putin 

 

They would have to be willing to be executed, or tortured and or jailed.

 

It would be a military coup, but a fairly popular and a very bloody one I think.

Edited January 21, 2023 by billd766
corrected some bad spelling

[ozimoron]

Send Ukraine tanks to get Germany to do so, McCaul urges

 

Speaking on ABC’s “This Week,” Rep. Michael McCaul (R-Texas) said the U.S. needed to make moves to spur European nations into action and help President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Ukraine avoid an extended, bloody war of attrition — what McCaul called “a slow bleed without a chance of victory.”

 

McCaul said: “If we announce we were going to give Abrams tanks, just one, that would unleash ... From what I hear, Germany is waiting for us to take the lead.”

 

He said that would create a domino effect, leading other nations in Europe to send Leopard 2 tanks as well. “Even saying we’re going to put Abrams tanks in, I think would be enough for Germany to unleash,” McCaul told host Martha Raddatz.

 

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/22/mccaul-ukraine-tanks-germany-russia-00078894

[ozimoron]

If Germany won’t play ball, then Poland will find other partners to deliver Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said in pointed remarks accusing Berlin of foot-dragging in its support of Kyiv against invading Russian forces.

Poland is prepared to go around German opposition to build a “smaller coalition” of countries and find allies willing to send the tanks to Ukraine, Morawiecki said in an interview with the Polish Press Agency published on Sunday.

“We will not passively watch Ukraine bleed to death,” Morawiecki said.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-ready-to-build-smaller-coalition-to-send-tanks-to-ukraine-without-germany-war-russia/

[placeholder]

On 1/21/2023 at 11:36 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't know if it is funny, sad or whatever to read all these comments from the arm-chair-experts.

How many of you are experts in wars, international relations, Russia, Ukraine, Putin, and a lot more?

How many know the history of Ukraine, Russia, the Soviet Union, Germany, the USA and other related countries?

How many know how wars are started, develop and end?

It's so easy to have an opinion of what is good or what is bad. I also have an opinion that there shouldn't be any wars. But somehow the world is not listening to me.

What's the point of all these comments from people who know basically nothing?

Some people here clearly know more than others. Some just engage in bloviation about the war being about profits. Citing unproveable and discreditable  motivations rather than acquiring actual knowledge is a lot easier. But that kind of approach might tell us something about the party making them, but little about the actual situation.

[ozimoron]

Of course weapons manufacturers make money from selling weapons. Just like big pharma make money selling drugs. That doesn't mean they caused or prolonged the war any more than they caused covid. Russia invaded Ukraine, leaving the western world no choice but to spend money on weapons. These conspiracy theories about it all being the military industrial machine's fault are puerile and simplistic.

[placeholder]

30 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Of course weapons manufacturers make money from selling weapons. Just like big pharma make money selling drugs. That doesn't mean they caused or prolonged the war any more than they caused covid. Russia invaded Ukraine, leaving the western world no choice but to spend money on weapons. These conspiracy theories about it all being the military industrial machine's fault are puerile and simplistic.

I wish I had said that.

[Chelseafan]

On 1/21/2023 at 4:03 AM, ozimoron said:

More weapons will solve this. Russia can't be trusted to talk. They promised peace in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons. They lied. They said they weren't going to invade. They lied. Russia's economy is under severe stress and the effect of the sanctions won't truly be felt until later this year. Now is the time to fight because Russia can't quickly regroup and collect more weapons. Russia is finished as a world power for generations. Until they get rid of Putin or send him to The Hague they will never escape sanctions.

 

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/impact-sanctions-russian-economy/

 

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88664

 

The literature suggests that a wider coalition of sanctioning countries could substantially increase the costs of sanctions for Russia. The impact of the sanctions is expected to increase gradually and darken Russia’s economic outlook for years to come. But while sanctions are an important tool to restrict Russia’s possibilities to continue the war, other measures are also needed.

 

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/war-and-sanctions-effects-russian-economy

We need Chuck Norris to sort out Putin. Does he know whats going on ? Has anyone told him ? CHUUUUUCCKK????

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Chelseafan